SPECTRE: What would you have done differently?

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  • Posts: 187
    I would've made a few changes;

    - Better composer. Newman should have gone.
    - Hinx should've had a higher body count trying to get to both Miss Swann and 007. He was menacing enough but you've got to strike fear into the audience that he could potentially be a massive threat to our hero.
    - Would've liked a bit more to the boardroom scene with some nods to Fleming; perhaps a line of dialogue pertaining to operations in the Bahamas and Japan.
    - More scenes showing either Blofeld in the shadows, perhaps blacked out in video messages or just people being afraid of him in general. Maybe even showing that Hinx is even afraid of him, that he's generally that dangerous of an individual.
    - No ski scene in any capacity was a bit of a let down.

    Those are just my initial, non-important personal gripes.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    bondjames wrote: »
    As I said in another thread, I would have tried to forge more of a connection with Swann. The train bit was nice, but at L'Americaine, they could have had her sleep talking or having a nightmare, revealing more about her fears. A tender moment there (like the shower scene in CR) between her and Bond might have helped a bit.

    Additionally, I think Bond should have been hurt more during the torture (which could have been a series of them over a few days in order to get something out of him). Swann could have escaped her room and saved him....thereby increasing our perception of her usefulness and resourcefulness.

    I would not have had the damsel in distress bit at the end. That's just outdated these days.

    I would have ended the film in Mexico after a more drawn out section there, with a nice dinner scene (with some witty dialogue and psych babble) to allow us to learn more about Blofeld's motivations, & revealing inner demons, memories and motivations. The food should be 'interesting' (a'la TMWTGG mushrooms & OP sheep eye)

    I would have dropped 'C' and the entire Nine Eyes, and all the MI6 gang shenanigans and given Blofeld a more standardized terrorist plot. That would have given us more time to concentrate on the more 'interesting' characters of Blofeld & Swann.

    I would have had more of a buildup to the Lucia seduction and given her more airplay (please!).

    I would have made the car chase more intense. What a waste of a scene imho.

    Finally, of course, as has been mentioned, no stupid family connection between Blofeld and Bond. Just keep him as Blofeld and drop Oberhauser completely.

    I agree except damsel or not I liked the ending.

    I also liked Nine Eyes and C ...the surveillance plot was all quite entertaining for me.

    I wish Silva had been left alone though ...the two Quantum movies where enough to get the point across.

    I didn't like Waltz's take at all .. and the brother angle just made it worse. There is no way someone that nice even if it is an evil false nice can elicit that much awe and fearful reverence from the world's most evil organization. He reminded me of my dad and I just couldn't take him serious. He should have scared me.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,741
    Spectre is pitch perfect.
    I agree 100%.
    If I could change just ONE thing it would be to get a more rockin' song for the titles (more like YKMN), but even as is, I was not disappointed.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    edited November 2015 Posts: 4,116
    .
    ..Waltz did pull off evil nice in IB ..but not here. I hung on every line of dialogue he had in that movie until he turned which ruined it ...but beyond that it was brilliant.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,741
    Actually, if they'd just re-used YKMN I also would have been happy!
    (I like that song too much)
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 1,098
    The titles were a bit dark, thought i was watching an introduction to a horror movie!
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 709
    I would have reworked the Austria action scene somehow.

    I'm not really sure what Bond is doing, trying to smash the cars off the road. Isn't that incredibly dangerous for Madeleine? It's kind of a big sequence that doesn't really impress much.

    Personally I would have reworked it into a helicopter chase. (First, where did Bond even get that plane from? It's logical that there might be a helipad at the clinic, but we don't see a plane anywhere?!) That would have meant that when Bond flies alongside the cars over the ravine, he could have leaned in and used the rotor blades to slash the tires of the rear car, sending it over the edge. Then he pursues them through the tunnel in the helicopter, and on the other side, uses a tow cable to grab the bumper of car no.2 to send it skidding onto a lake where it falls through the ice. Then for the final Hinx car which he needs to keep in one piece, I would tribute the hell out of FYEO by having him jam the landing skid through the back windshield and lift it off the ground, flipping it upside down so its immobile. All the carnage causes a (minor) avalanche; Bond quickly lands the chopper, grabs Madeleine and drags her out of there before the car is buried. Then when they leave, we see Hinx's huge hand burst out of the snow.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    edited November 2015 Posts: 4,116
    Kevin Spacey as Blofeld. Ok so he's American but Waltz's English is spoken with an American accent.

    I swear if everything else about SP was exactly the same I might have worked.

    Might have boosted American interests even though that's not the reason to cast someone.

    Spacey is also friends with Mendes.

  • tigers99 wrote: »
    A climax on top of Big Ben, that feels very Hitchcock :)

    London/Tower Bridge will also do (a la the Golden Gate @ AVTAK), I don't mind Sherlock Holmes did it already.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    bondjames wrote: »
    I would have made the car chase more intense. What a waste of a scene imho.

    I get people's reservations about this scene, after all a lot of people had already made up their mind this was going to be akin to Ronin, or Bullitt, based on little evidence actually. However, they played Mexico straight, Austria straight, the train fight straight and the finale is also played straight. I think on balance it was a nice addition to have it played lighter. We've had a film with an overabundance of intense action scenes already this era and it's part of the reason I find them quite cold. That being said, it could have been covered in better fashion, while still including the exposition.
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,727
    RC7 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I would have made the car chase more intense. What a waste of a scene imho.

    I get people's reservations about this scene, after all a lot of people had already made up their mind this was going to be akin to Ronin, or Bullitt, based on little evidence actually. However, they played Mexico straight, Austria straight, the train fight straight and the finale is also played straight. I think on balance it was a nice addition to have it played lighter. We've had a film with an overabundance of intense action scenes already this era and it's part of the reason I find them quite cold. That being said, it could have been covered in better fashion, while still including the exposition.

    Agreed. As I've said, the car chase was fine by me & I enjoyed the change in tone to the bleak grit of QoS' chase, for instance.
    Both the PTS & train sequence played it straight, were hard as nails & didn't pull any punches. A Bourne-style car chase as well would have been a bit glum.
  • Lancaster007Lancaster007 Shrublands Health Clinic, England
    Posts: 1,874
    I liked how "M", "Q", Moneypenny and Tanner were involved at the end. But I would like to have seen a bunch of Bond's double O colleagues involved.
    At some dramatic moment one or two or a few double O's could have shown up. I think it would have made sense because a lot of the double O agents would be of the same mettle as Bond and would want to be involved.

    "James why didn't you invite us to the party?" double O whomever.
    "I new I didn't have to." Bond.
    "Right let's get on with it 007." another double O.

    The thing is MI6 operates outside GB, so to have Double Os on hand would make no sense, and in fact one of the thing I didn't like about SPECTRE was the finale in London, there should have been a protracted finale at ESB HQ…then Bond and Swann driving off into the sunset.
  • DrShatterhandDrShatterhand Garden of Death, near Belfast
    edited November 2015 Posts: 805
    First Act - PTS/London - not much change here. I do like the suggestion that M's video message was hidden in the bulldog ornament though (was this mentioned in one of the leaked scripts as being shown in the title sequence?). Smart blood - I'm unsure about this staying or not. Originally it factored more in the story but, like a few other things, was so stripped back during the re-writes it was almost made redundant. If anything, I'd keep it as it does mean there's the added edge to Bond going solo i.e. that he has to move quickly or M will be able to track him.

    Rome - Lose the 'Mickey Mouse' line (can't believe this stayed in) . Also liked the masks in the earlier version and the fact that Bond had to figure out which entrance to use. The dialogue in this scene isn't great either, particularly when you compare it to the similar scene in TB, would've liked to hear some better details on current and future SPECTRE operations. Would've introduced the idea that the SPECTRE ring had some other function e.g. as a computer drive so the later scene when Bond hands it to Q makes more sense. The car chase needed to be edited better, seemed very pedestrian and tension-free to me.

    Austria - Think this location was a bit short-changed. Would've liked to see a bit more scene-setting. We needed to see the plane more before it suddenly pops up in the chase as that came across a bit silly.

    Morocco This is where it goes a bit off the rails for me. L'American - this made zero sense to me. Why would White set up a secret room in a hotel?. How did anyone at the hotel not notice? If it was sealed without a door, how did White enter it? Are we lead to believe that White tracked Blofeld to the base in the desert but then fled to Austria? Also, not keen on Bond's discovery of it...couldn't he have done something cleverer than punching a hole in the wall? Shame also that they dropped the French Legion connection, would've only have needed a short exchange with Swann.."So, why Tangiers?" Like I said, not keen on this.

    At the base, while not keen on the poker game itself, the dialogue in the December script here was cracking, really cementing Blofeld's hatred of Bond. Also loved the 'you're an orphan too' reveal and the earlier "do you have any other rocks you'd like to show the class" line which I'm sure would've got a big laugh.

    London Really not keen on any of this. I can see how thematically it fits, with Bond making his decision on the bridge with his boss on one side and his girl on the other but storywise it's a bit of a mess.
  • SzonanaSzonana Mexico
    Posts: 1,130
    I think the movie was almost perfect the way it was I really loved it.

    Maybe i would have only added a nice party or Casino scene to have a btter reason for Bond and Madeline wear their black tie clothe.
    Bond's Tuaxedo and Madeline's beautiful gown looked a bitt out of place in a scene with just a quiet regular dinner at the train.

    Their clothes didn't fit the moment.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    RC7 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I would have made the car chase more intense. What a waste of a scene imho.

    I get people's reservations about this scene, after all a lot of people had already made up their mind this was going to be akin to Ronin, or Bullitt, based on little evidence actually. However, they played Mexico straight, Austria straight, the train fight straight and the finale is also played straight. I think on balance it was a nice addition to have it played lighter. We've had a film with an overabundance of intense action scenes already this era and it's part of the reason I find them quite cold. That being said, it could have been covered in better fashion, while still including the exposition.

    I think my primary concern with it (which I really noticed consciously on 2nd watch, but which probably hit me subconsciously on 1st watch) was that this kind of levity was inserted at precisely the 'wrong moment' in the film.

    We had just encountered the SPECTRE meeting, with Hinx's terrifying entrance and kill (not to mention Blofeld's acknowledgement of Bond) and now we go straight to this somewhat Roger Moore'esque (FYEO/AVTAK...... & not TSWLM/TMWTGG.....at least in terms of mood) chase. Once it was over, I had no real 'fear' of Hinx any more (so the train fight had less resonance for me). After all, if Bond is so casual about him, why should I be concerned about him. Which also reminds me.....there should have been some shot 'establishing the fear' of the leads (or bystanders) for Hinx before or during the fight, as was done so well in TSWLM (Anya almost crapped herself in the truck in Egypt while fumbling for her keys) or MR (Manuela similarly in Rio). They didn't do that, so it just seemed like a fisticuff brawl.

    So while I don't have a problem with inserting a little humour here and there, I think this scene was the wrong one/place in which to do it. I had no problem with the sofa insertion in the pretitles. That scene was still 'tense' despite that addition. Same goes for the 'couple joke' in SF when Bond jumps on the back of the train.

    Timing and tone were off on this scene imho.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Don't know what people are babble about the Rome car chase.

    It was beautifully shot, a lot of fun and Bond found the perfect parking space :))

    Hinx was a real threat and the car chase didn't take away anything from that.

    Furthermore the real fight with Hinx had to be in the train.
    Had there been another one first in Rome, the same people would now complain that they repeated themselves.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    Don't know what people are babble about the Rome car chase.

    It was beautifully shot, a lot of fun and Bond found the perfect parking space :))

    Hinx was a real threat and the car chase didn't take away anything from that.

    Furthermore the real fight with Hinx had to be in the train.
    Had there been another one first in Rome, the same people would now complain that they repeated themselves.

    Yeah, I laughed a lot during the chase.

    Bond pulls the backfire lever, but he has no ammos, and he's like "I can't believe it!" :))

    Then he pulls another lever and he gets some kind of party music, which is 009's personal playlist and Craig almost swears :)) :))

    And then the old man who's driving reaaaally slowly, so Craig has to push him very fast. =))

    And when he lands on the bridge and gives a casual look to that guy :)) =))
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,684
    If I had full control in changing SP:

    1.) I'm playing James Bond.
    2.) The scenes after Bond leaves Lucia don't happen at all.
    3.) I spend the rest of the movie in bed with her in a secure location.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Walecs wrote: »
    Don't know what people are babble about the Rome car chase.

    It was beautifully shot, a lot of fun and Bond found the perfect parking space :))

    Hinx was a real threat and the car chase didn't take away anything from that.

    Furthermore the real fight with Hinx had to be in the train.
    Had there been another one first in Rome, the same people would now complain that they repeated themselves.

    Yeah, I laughed a lot during the chase.

    Bond pulls the backfire lever, but he has no ammos, and he's like "I can't believe it!" :))

    Then he pulls another lever and he gets some kind of party music, which is 009's personal playlist and Craig almost swears :)) :))

    And then the old man who's driving reaaaally slowly, so Craig has to push him very fast. =))

    And when he lands on the bridge and gives a casual look to that guy :)) =))

    :)) if I think of all this, that car chase might already be one of my favourites in the franchise!
    And the look the litter service guy has on his face is priceless as well! :))

    The 009 Musicmix plays Frank Sinatra's New York Yew York by the way :))
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 4,602
    I can't think of a better recent example than the car chase to represent the different directions that the franchise is being pulled in. There seems to be a lack of consensus about who or what Bond should be. If the fans can't agree, then there is no way the writer and directer can be seen to get it just right: whatever they do, they will be criticised by one ellement of the fanbase. For me and for others, the car chase is just wrong: a seriously bad error/misjudgement. But as we can see from other posts, other fans love the "lighter touch". I think one of the issues is that the style of Bond has changed so much over the years that there is no "real" Bond anymore. (At least different actors kept their own style, the RM Bond was pretty consistent compared to the almost different Bonds that DC has played) We have lost track of the man as apposed to the different versions played so differently by different actors. MI and Bourne (and the original SC Bond) dont have this extra burden. Greengrass does not have to sit down with Matt D to decide if they are going to slip in some jokes (dialogue or visual), the character is fixed and that also helps managing expectations. When you go and see a Bourne movie, you basically know what you are going to get (also helps with the reviews) but now we have got to a situation with Bond where we have little idea about what to expect and I dont think that's good for box office. They need a more consistent/fixed tone over the next three movies. IMHO.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    @patb

    There is a real Bond, is has been there for 40 years and now again.

    CR QOS and SF tried something different with CR being the one resembling the predecessors the most, probably because of Martin Campbell.

    QOS and SF drifted away too much.
    SF being as successful as Thunderball has brought in a whole bunch of new fans that probably have difficulties with the style that Spectre has to offer.

    Bond will always be about getting girls, drinking not stirred martinis, playing Poker, having over-the-top action to endure and to face larger-than-life villains, every now and then ski, dive or fly a plane and having car chases.

    Bond is not about facing his inner demons or having his past dished up on the screen.

    At least the cinematic Bond, I'm not talking books.
  • Posts: 2,116
    Having now seen the film a third time theres still one major issue: namely, what does Spectre actually want to do with the Nine Eyes, and why is it so impotant it doesnt go online?

    I could think of several reasons:

    1. The minute they do they have access to the current and classified archive of all intelligence from 9 countries, and they dump it wiki leaks style on the net to cause a war between nations.
    2. Use the nine eyes to lock countries out of their own intelligence network, and unleash a coup in those countries to grab power.
    3. Use the info from the Nine Eyes to eliminate all state's undercover agents, operatives etc.

    Im sure there are better options, but it needs something to drive urgency into the third act, which was somewhat lacking.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    I think it was obvious that if Nine Eyes goes live, that Spectre would get all the information of 9 countries intelligence services.

    If that is not urgent enough to be stopped then I don't know what is.

    @Mallory
  • Besides all the small things that could always be improved, I think the real big issue is that the showdown is not dramatic enough. It comes to soon after Morocco, it doesn't have any emotional or dramatical flavor.
    My feeling was that the whole London part at the end did not work out that great also it was the only part where you could definetely tell that there was no clear storytelling with scenes jumping unmotivated between Bond und M and a quite boring car thing in the streets. Didn't feel Bond at all.

    To my mind this could have been easily changed:
    1. C loses the Nine Eyes voting
    2. Blofeld needs to get to London himself for a final big terrorist attack right there in London!
    3. Bond needs to stop the attack

    Many smaller things around this could have been adressed:
    Either have Hinx appear and let him kill C (because he failed)

    Without any story change, it would have been also cool to have Hinx standing next to the tied up Madeleine. So we know the building is going to explode in 3min, we know Bond could not stop Hinx when they met the first time, and then the fight starts again.
  • Oh and they could have used the smart blood much more clever by using it to find Blofeld or Madeine in the showdown. This would have required Bond to somehow losing blood or putting his blood on their clothes maybe not even deliberately but in the showdown when he needs it, he suddenly remembers it, tells Q about it and Q then finds a very small hint on his smart blood
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    I would change the year.

    Spectre in 2012 instead of SF with minor changes to the script (M retires, asks Bond to go find Sciarra as a personal favour)
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited December 2015 Posts: 4,399
    .
  • Murdock wrote: »
    Replace Thomas Newman with a better composer.

    ... a killer tunesmith who can craft a great title song - David Arnold springs to mind - and then look for the best artist(s) to perform that song. Or work in close collaboration with the composer to tailor it to his/her/their strengths.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    The two main things which if changed would render my other gripes redundant:
    - The composer. DAF is the worst quality film but Barry made it enjoyable.
    - No personal angle. Blofeld as a standalone villain without linking the previous movies

    Many things
    - Main theme song called "Spectre"
    - Why is Hinx killing Bond when Oberhauser seems to want to deal with Bond personally. This I can let slide as many other Bond films do the same. But an extended role for Hinx would've been better
    - More involving action. It was fun but something was missing
    - Downplay the Bond/Swan love story
    - Less involvement from the MI6 crew. At this rate you may as well give them main billing in the next film
  • Posts: 5,745
    The first thing I would do differently:
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