Music in SPECTRE

1222325272845

Comments

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    He likely won't be back unless Mendes is back, so we are going to get someone new next time.

    There are several great composers out there who can do a great Bond score. EON just need to watch a few films and figure it out, that's all
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,184
    Joe Kraemer is at the top of my list. \m/
  • edited October 2015 Posts: 1,310
    I can't say Newman's Bond tracks are BAD per se, but man, are they are chore to listen to. What's worse is I feel they're going to get dated as time goes on. Newman uses an excessive amount of electronic percussion and noise to cover up the unremarkable orchestral cues. Arnold had this problem, too; it is almost like they recorded the entire soundtrack and then said, "Hmm, it sounds a little empty. Maybe if I add a 500 beats-per-minute bass line underneath it'll pack more punch." No, no it won't.

    It's not fair to compare Newman to Barry's scores, there really is nothing to compare. But even David Arnold wasn't afraid to use loud brass in an action cue and used it far better than Newman does. "Come in 007, Your Time Is Up" from The World Is Not Enough is loaded with extraneous electronic cues, but there are some great brass cues that shine through (the Bond theme is good, but also the cue right before Bond uses his boat to dive underwater - that Thunderball "wah-wah" is a nice little touch). Newman's orchestral cues rarely break through the electronic beats and overwhelming bass lines. I'm not saying David Arnold's scores should be the gold standard (DAD was no good, and bits of his other soundtracks were occasionally bland), but overall they are more exciting and satisfying than Newman's drone-y, monotonous melodies...if you can even call them melodies.

    If it sounds like I'm really ripping into Newman, I suppose I am. I must reiterate that I am not necessarily offended by his generic music, and it should work just fine in the film as it did in Skyfall. But I feel that James Bond deserves better, and I also feel there are other composers who would do these movies far better justice.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,184
    Post of the day! =D>
  • edited October 2015 Posts: 620
    @sjk91: Hear, hear! Great post.
    It's funny, I actually think Newman is a very good composer. I just don't think he's the right composer for Bond.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2015 Posts: 23,883
    You may be right @SJK91. I just find it curious that you would come out with this kind of post after hearing 2 tracks on a 24 track soundtrack. I would think it would be more appropriate to hear the whole thing and then pass comment.

    Furthermore, while I can appreciate your view on Newman's electronica, holding up David Arnold as a positive comparison (even though I realize you qualified yourself and did mention his use of brass) sort of hurts your argument.
    SJK91 wrote: »
    I'm not saying David Arnold's scores should be the gold standard

    Indeed... Indeed.

    I look forward to discussing this score with you in a more constructive fashion once we hear it fully. In the meanwhile, I think those who are obviously missing David Arnold (whether they come out and say it or not....and I'm not suggesting you're one of them necessarily) consider that he had his chance, and for the most part, delivered sub par scores for this franchise, as evidenced by the numerous ranking games we have had here over the years. I'm personally glad to see the back of him, although he improved on his last two efforts.

    Once Mendes and Newman are done with their run, I look forward to a new, appropriate composer to take Bond forward for the next 50 years.
  • edited October 2015 Posts: 1,310
    Thanks for the feedback, everyone.
    bondjames wrote: »
    You may be right @SJK91. I just find it curious that you would come out with this kind of post after hearing 2 tracks on a 24 track soundtrack. I would think it would be more appropriate to hear the whole thing and then pass comment.
    This remark is certainly understandable. I really try to hold myself back from judging things on trailers, snippets and other piecemeal releases. It's just that after the lackluster Skyfall score and just now getting two new pieces of music that sound like Skyfall's score frustrates me. Ultimately, you are right, though. A few weeks from now I can give a more level headed review.
    bondjames wrote: »
    Furthermore, while I can appreciate your view on Newman's electronica, holding up David Arnold as a positive comparison (even though I realize you qualified yourself and did mention his use of brass) sort of hurts your argument.
    See, I used Arnold as an example to make the point that even he had more exciting stuff than Newman did. It would have been easy to say John Barry did it better here, here and here. I'm not a big fan of Arnold either and both Newman and Arnold suffer from many of the same issues, but I still feel that Arnold's music is more engaging than Newman's, and I accept whatever implications my opinion may imply. For the record, I don't think Arnold should return.
    bondjames wrote: »
    I look forward to discussing this score with you in a more constructive fashion once we hear it fully.
    Absolutely.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I understand how you feel @SJK91. The SF score did not have enough bombast and was a little too low key. Newman seems to not want to overshadow the action (if you hear his comments on that recent BBC interview posted above he says that he tries not to do this) so I'm sure this is a conscious decision.

    He needs to give his scores more 'balls' for lack of a better word.

    Bottom line - this is not his forte. He is not an action composer. This is why, of the two tracks posted today, the slow one is the more memorable, imho, because it plays to Newman's traditional strengths.

    Point taken re: Arnold. I wondered why you did not use Barry as the comparison, but you've clarified and you're argument is more clear by using Arnold as the comparison...true.
  • brinkeguthriebrinkeguthrie Piz Gloria
    Posts: 1,311
    This says "it is confirmed that Sam Smith's title track 'Writing's On The Wall' will be included." Yet it is not on the track listing.

    "The 'SPECTRE' soundtrack will be released by Decca Records (owned by Universal Music Group) and it is confirmed that Sam Smith's title track 'Writing's On The Wall' will be included. The soundtrack will have the added bonus of an instrumental version of the song."

    Order Amazon USA • Order Amazon UK

    1. Los Muertos Vivos Estan (featuring Tambuco)
    2. Vauxhall Bridge
    3. The Eternal City
    4. Donna Lucia
    5. A Place Without Mercy
    6. Backfire
    7. Crows Klinik
    8. The Pale King
    9. Madeleine
    10. Kite In A Hurricane
    11. Snow Plane
    12. L'Americain
    13. Secret Room
    14. Hinx
    15. Writing's On The Wall (Instrumental)
    16. Silver Wraith
    17. A Reunion
    18. Day Of The Dead (featuring Tambuco)
    19. Tempus Fugit
    20. Safe House
    21. Blindfold
    22. Careless
    23. Detonation
    24. Westminster Bridge
    25. Out Of Bullets
    26. Spectre (End Title)

  • Posts: 501
    I don't want to listen to any of the music until the 6th of November with the movie itself. The point of a score is that it has to work with the images we see, so I don't se the point of hearing to the music before seeing the pictures. At least, the first time should be a combined experience. Or that's at least how I see it.
  • Posts: 11,119
    'Patience' should become trendsetting again. I sometimes wonder why people like Craig " doesn't give a fuck" about the internet. I know now. Once creative persons like Daniel Craig, Thomas Newman and Sam Smith start reading these topics, they WOULD probably "cut their wrists".
  • 0iker0 wrote: »
    I don't want to listen to any of the music until the 6th of November with the movie itself. The point of a score is that it has to work with the images we see, so I don't se the point of hearing to the music before seeing the pictures. At least, the first time should be a combined experience. Or that's at least how I see it.
    Very true @0iker0. I think the criticism of Newman's music is due to the fact that Bond fans, especially those with a fond memory of seeing the older films during their release, tend to remember the music actually being a character or should I say, more than just background audio to the visual on screen. Whether a protagonist theme (e.g. Bond theme, 007 theme, Vesper theme....hell, even JW Pepper has a 5 note theme, reminiscent of LALD in TMWTGG) or an antagonist theme (e.g. Odd Job, Blofeld in OHMSS, Wint & Kidd, Necros etc). David Arnold, being such a Bond purist and admirer of Barry even tried to incorporate this into his scores.
    I own the following scores and listen to them often on their own with great delight (OHMSS, YOLT, Moonraker & TLD). There is rhythm, melody, characterization to these OSTs. Most importantly, I enjoy putting myself into the film at the precise point of any track. With Newman's SF score, I could not do that, save for perhaps Chimera, Severine and part of Grand Bazaar.
    Bottom line, I too am VERY eager to see the FILM...not just listen to music without context, and be transported to my 'happy place' that I get to enjoy every 2-3 years with a new Bond release. Soundtrack music should help convey in sound, what the eyes are seeing on screen. It is those very rare instances when a master, such as Barry, is able to do more with music and appeal to you, beyond just your auditory sense.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,243
    'Patience' should become trendsetting again. I sometimes wonder why people like Craig " doesn't give a fuck" about the internet. I know now. Once creative persons like Daniel Craig, Thomas Newman and Sam Smith start reading these topics, they WOULD probably "cut their wrists".

    So true
  • Mi6LisbonBranchMi6LisbonBranch Lisbon, Portugal
    Posts: 243
    SJK91 wrote: »
    For me:

    Backfire: A generic and relatively dull listen until perhaps the final 30 seconds, and even that is right out of "Grand Bazaar." (Though I do like the synthesized sounding "BAH-BAH" at the three minute mark even if it is fleeting.) Sounds like a whole lot of other action cues with its relentless notes and constant percussion (a trend I am very tired of). I'm sure it'll work just fine in the film, though.

    Donna Lucia: Similar to "Severine," which is decent. Gets the job done, I suppose and will also likely work in the film. Nothing to get too excited about.

    If Spectre's score is anything like Skyfall's the soundtrack will be a bore on its own, but will work fine within the film.

    And if it is like Skyfall's, I think we need a new composer for the next film.

    I totally agree with @SJK91. Skyfall OST in the movie works indeed perfectly but when i listen to it isolated it does get boring from time to time. For Bond 25 i would like either the return of David Arnold or maybe Hans Zimmer (with Nolan directing!).
  • Mi6LisbonBranchMi6LisbonBranch Lisbon, Portugal
    Posts: 243
    SJK91 wrote: »
    I can't say Newman's Bond tracks are BAD per se, but man, are they are chore to listen to. What's worse is I feel they're going to get dated as time goes on. Newman uses an excessive amount of electronic percussion and noise to cover up the unremarkable orchestral cues. Arnold had this problem, too; it is almost like they recorded the entire soundtrack and then said, "Hmm, it sounds a little empty. Maybe if I add a 500 beats-per-minute bass line underneath it'll pack more punch." No, no it won't.

    It's not fair to compare Newman to Barry's scores, there really is nothing to compare. But even David Arnold wasn't afraid to use loud brass in an action cue and used it far better than Newman does. "Come in 007, Your Time Is Up" from The World Is Not Enough is loaded with extraneous electronic cues, but there are some great brass cues that shine through (the Bond theme is good, but also the cue right before Bond uses his boat to dive underwater - that Thunderball "wah-wah" is a nice little touch). Newman's orchestral cues rarely break through the electronic beats and overwhelming bass lines. I'm not saying David Arnold's scores should be the gold standard (DAD was no good, and bits of his other soundtracks were occasionally bland), but overall they are more exciting and satisfying than Newman's drone-y, monotonous melodies...if you can even call them melodies.

    If it sounds like I'm really ripping into Newman, I suppose I am. I must reiterate that I am not necessarily offended by his generic music, and it should work just fine in the film as it did in Skyfall. But I feel that James Bond deserves better, and I also feel there are other composers who would do these movies far better justice.

    ...and i thought i liked David Arnold's OST's but now ... you convinced me! Except for Casino Royale, that is a trully exceptional score ("City of Lovers" and "Mr.White/My Name is Bond, James Bond" being superb!)! cheers
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 6,860
    The thing with Arnold for me is that his scores are very pastiche. They feel like a step backwards from where soundtracks were going in Bond films. What I appreciate about Barry's run is that his sound evolved over time. By the 80s his styles were different from what he did in the 60s. He always tried something new, whether its moog synthesizers, 80s guitar riffs or drum machines. David Arnold tapping back in to that 60s "wah-wah" while throwing a bit of techno and not showing any growth with his own music was tiring. He's not even excelling outside of Bond either. When he proclaimed that his soundtrack for CR was to be different, I was intrigued. What he offered wasn't really different from what he did before, it's just less of the Bond theme he was so reliant of and less techno applied. He can be good at imitating Barry music, but he only achieves it on a surface level. It's because of his run that I grew more appreciative of the one off composers who brought their own flavor. They didn't try to imitate Barry's music, and I'm glad Newman isn't trying that either. No one can ever truly replicate what Barry did. Arnold could come up with a decent tune or two, but most of his music in his soundtracks feel like filler that have no drive to them, just something to play before he can go bombastic with the horns and try making you think of Barry. He does make me think of Barry, as in I rather listen to a Barry soundtrack than TWINE.

    That said, I've appreciated what Newman has done so far with tracks like "Shanghai Drive" and "Tennyson", but without Mendes he likely won't return unless EON takes that extra step to ask him back instead of going back to Arnold. Given that Newman's soundtrack sold better and got more accolades than any of Arnold's, there are more reasons to try to keep him on board instead of Arnold. If no more Newman, I hope someone else would get the gig. I really do not want any more Barry pastiche.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    I just noticed that the word "backfire" actually appears in the trailer.
    Backfire.jpg
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2015 Posts: 23,883
    The thing with Arnold for me is that his scores are very pastiche. They feel like a step backwards from where soundtracks were going in Bond films. What I appreciate about Barry's run is that his sound evolved over time. By the 80s his styles were different from what he did in the 60s. He always tried something new, whether its moog synthesizers, 80s guitar riffs or drum machines. David Arnold tapping back in to that 60s "wah-wah" while throwing a bit of techno and not showing any growth with his own music was tiring. He's not even excelling outside of Bond either. When he proclaimed that his soundtrack for CR was to be different, I was intrigued. What he offered wasn't really different from what he did before, it's just less of the Bond theme he was so reliant of and less techno applied. He can be good at imitating Barry music, but he only achieves it on a surface level. It's because of his run that I grew more appreciative of the one off composers who brought their own flavor. They didn't try to imitate Barry's music, and I'm glad Newman isn't trying that either. No one can ever truly replicate what Barry did. Arnold could come up with a decent tune or two, but most of his music in his soundtracks feel like filler that have no drive to them, just something to play before he can go bombastic with the horns and try making you think of Barry. He does make me think of Barry, as in I rather listen to a Barry soundtrack than TWINE.

    That said, I've appreciated what Newman has done so far with tracks like "Shanghai Drive" and "Tennyson", but without Mendes he likely won't return unless EON takes that extra step to ask him back instead of going back to Arnold. Given that Newman's soundtrack sold better and got more accolades than any of Arnold's, there are more reasons to try to keep him on board instead of Arnold. If no more Newman, I hope someone else would get the gig. I really do not want any more Barry pastiche.

    This is my view as well @MakeshiftPython. I think Arnold did very good work on CR & QoS but only in comparison to what he did before.....as a standalone I still prefer the other 'one off' composers who tried to be different, including Newman (just for being different & creative). I don't like inferior derivative work, particularly when it comes to art personally.

    Having said that, there are far better possible Bond composers out there imho, including Daniel Pemberton, Joe Kraemer & particularly Henry Jackman.

    There are also a lot of less well known composers who could do a decent job. Jóhann Jóhannsson did great work on Sicario for example.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,184
    I never saw Arnold's work as pastiche. I didn't like any of his work when I was younger but when I got all the soundtracks I got to listen to them in depth and liked them. The man is clearly inspired by Barry so he pays homage to him. Arnold was showing respect to Barry's legendary work and understood the Bond sound. I don't see the problem with it. A pastiche is more akin to The music from Austin Powers. It's Barryesque, but for the purpose of parodying it. I love Arnold's Brosnan scores the most. I enjoy his work for Craig's run too but I find the lack of Bond theme has been a serious problem for the last few films.

    Newman's music is servicable within the film, but on it's own it leaves much to be desired.

    My biggest request is more Bond theme. It's a James Bond movie for crying out loud. I want to hear it in full when Bond is doing something Mindblowing or when it's most needed.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 6,860
    That's the issue I had with Arnold, he'd try to be "Barryesque" but only got it at a surface level. If I wanted something truly "Barryesque", I'd go to John Barry. No time for imitators.

    As for who I'd nominate for a Bond score after Newman departs, I'd nominate Jonny Greenwood.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    I want Alexandre Desplat after Newman.
  • Does anyone know if the soundtrack will be released on vinyl album as Skyfall was?
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,213
    Walecs wrote: »
    I just noticed that the word "backfire" actually appears in the trailer.
    Backfire.jpg
    I realized this first time I watched the trailer, and I liked the pun.

  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited October 2015 Posts: 4,043
    I think it will depend of the director of Bond 25 who we get next, if it's not one associated with a particular composer like Mendes then I can see Arnold back with the baton but if it is director with a particular collaborator and I'm not saying it will happen like David Fincher then I can see DA waiting somewhat longer to return.

    Alexandre Desplat always struck me as one composer who would certainly not disappoint me as being appointed, I like most of his scores I've heard.

    I just think the problem is when you've had Barry scoring the films the next place is always going to be down not unless someone comes along and reinvents the approach entirely and redefines what a Bond score is.

    Arnold pays homage to Barry to frequently and Newman is too fond of mood music. We need something memorable and stirring and I'm afraid we've not really truly heard that since 1987
  • Posts: 501
    The problem I have with David Arnold is that he always tried to copy or imitate Barry's style. He's no Barry though. There's only one score he's done that I really like, Casino Royale. I'm a big Barry fan, I love his compositions and his unique sentimental style. However, the best non-Barry scores of the series are the ones by people that have managed to maintain their own style while still creating a great atmosphere which matched the film: The Spy Who Loved Me, Live And Let Die, For Your Eyes Only or Licence to Kill spring to mind, specially the first two. I'm not including Skyfall on purpose. Even GoldenEye deserves more praise than what its had. I do like it, and I don't think it's as bad as some claim it is.

    Don't get me wrong, I liked Arnold's work for Casino Royale and The World Is Not Enough in particular. And the score for Die Another Day isn't as bad as de flick itself. I just think that it's positive and good for the franchise that each composer keeps their own sound, and Thomas Newman's sound is one of the most particular and differentiable of the entire industry. It's a style that I didn't think it would work at first. But it did IMHO in Skyfall.

    Now, regarding the songs some of you have heard and the criticisms I've read, and taking into account that I haven't heard neither of both songs, I don't see why one would criticise the fact that Newman is bringing back some part of the Grand Bazaar, Istanbul when the same person has been asking for the 007 theme to come back. Barry used that theme many times, at the very least 5 times. What if the part that Newman repeats is his 007 theme? Or at least plays that part? I think that a full review can't be written until we see the result with the film itself.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,243
    007 theme is Bondian. "Grand Bazaar" could belong in any action movie
  • Posts: 501
    007 theme is Barry 100%, and as it's been used in Bond, it's become bondian. Grand Bazaar is 100% Thomas Newman, it certainly has his touches, and it's quite Bondian, or at least I think of it as being quite Bondian. New things are often attacked before being praised. Ask Parisians about Tour Eiffel now, and look at their answers 100ish years ago. The same happens where I live. Ask people of Donostia what we think of the new Kursaal and look at the opinions they had 20 odd years ago. Opinions change with time. And my feeling is that opinions will shift, the same way they shifted from what the main public thought of OHMSS, the film not the score itself, 46 years ago, and what many think now.
  • That's the issue I had with Arnold, he'd try to be "Barryesque" but only got it at a surface level. If I wanted something truly "Barryesque", I'd go to John Barry. No time for imitators.

    To be fair to him, he was asked so by EON after Serra's Goldeneye (in which EON even asked Altman for a more Barryesque track for the chase instead of Serra's one).

  • SatoriousSatorious Brushing up on a little Danish
    Posts: 225
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Arnold pays homage to Barry to frequently and Newman is too fond of mood music. We need something memorable and stirring and I'm afraid we've not really truly heard that since 1987

    This.

    I think Daniel Pemberton (The Game, Man from UNCLE, Steve Jobs) and Alexandre Desplat (Largo Winch) would be interesting choice, I'm sure there are others also.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I don't have a problem with Alexandre Desplat. He could do a good job. My first choice is still Henry Jackman, after seeing and hearing his work on Kingsman and Captain America-Winter Soldier.
Sign In or Register to comment.