Is Die Another Day suddenly loosing its gloss and appeal?

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  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    @Mansfield

    Thanks for your advise. I'm capable of self-criticism. I have already learned my lesson.
    I'm not going to make bold and simple statements again. That's contradictory to making posts with valid arguments. Shame on me.

    I realise I'm the reason for some threads going rogue, so to speak. That's not a good thing. Shame on me again.

    As for @Getafix, you are completely right. I wish I had his gloss and appeal and eloquence for that matter. (Not buttering up here, I mean it)
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,690
    IMO DAD is the worst Bond film, but DAF has to be the most OTT/campy/silly film in the entire canon - from the moment the awfully dubbed 'Cai-Cai-Cairo' guy appears on screen, to when Mr Wint seems to enjoy Bond grabbing his balls, my jaw drops on the floor and remains there for 2 hours.

    DAD is a horrible Bond film, but there are a few moments where you can see some strokes of a good film hiding underneath a huge pile of nonsense. But DAF seems like the entire cast and crew (save for John Barry) were smoking some very good stuff during the entire production. Case in point the finale raid on the oil rig, which has to be the cheapest looking end battle scene to any action/adventure film that I can remember watching.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    edited September 2015 Posts: 5,080
    There's something to love in every Bond movie, and I've always been an advocate of that. I proudly own all 23 on BR, DAD no exception. My recent Bondathon made me realise just how much of a difference there is between it and the rest. Ok, perhaps "hate" is too strong of a word. Disappointing, embarrassing amongst others are more appropriate. But I do realise, that for some fans, DAD did great harm to their enthusiasm and fandom for the series upon release, and for that, it was unforgivable for many.

    Whereas MR has a Barry score, lush cinematography and great sets, DAD has very little to redeem apart from some genuinely good moments that a few and far between. Still, it's a Bond film, like you said, so I'll still watch it, even if I feel the urge to throw my remote at the TV upon Jinx's mouth moving, and if only I'm doing a Bonathon.



  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,979
    Where does DAD go wrong, exactly? With the title sequence? With the gunbarrel?
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    edited September 2015 Posts: 5,080
    Probably gunbarrel. The PTS is good, though.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    echo wrote: »
    Where does DAD go wrong, exactly? With the title sequence? With the gunbarrel?

    It falters intermittently, but falls off a cliff after the line... 'I'm Mr.Kil'

  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    All the posts here on behalf of every member consists of a few paragraphs, but shares one purpose. Either it's 'DAD is awful' or 'DAD is brilliant', adding to the measure "I'm right and you're wrong", only expressed in different words. Can we put it to rest already? It's getting tiresome.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited September 2015 Posts: 15,690
    Basically DAD goes wrong with the CGI bullet in the gunbarrel, but with some improvements here and there amids constant more 'wrong' moments. However once the action gets to Iceland the film's quality goes down in constant downwards direction. But it's hard for me to argue against someone saying that once Jinx pops up in Cuba the film is buried. I like to be generous so I'll give the film some merits until it reaches Iceland.

    But I will say this - if I don't compare DAD with the rest of the franchise, the film is one hell of a thrill-ride.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    Why was this thread even revived, anyway?
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Am I right to assume most of you dislike Jinx coming out of the sea as an homage to Dr. No?
    I've always liked that scene very much, but then I have no quarrels with Jinx in DAD.
  • edited September 2015 Posts: 11,119
    Basically DAD goes wrong with the CGI bullet in the gunbarrel, but with some improvements here and there amids constant more 'wrong' moments. However once the action gets to Iceland the film's quality goes down in constant downwards direction. But it's hard for me to argue against someone saying that once Jinx pops up in Cuba the film is buried.

    It already goes wrong during the entire PTS sequence. We have been criticising Bond's CGI-face in the PTS of "Skyfall". But IMO it's nowhere as obvious as the entire greenscreen behind Bond and his two fellow Asian agents, doubling for the North-Korean beach. David Tattersal's (cinematographer) color filter choice during that PTS was also dreadfully grey, as if we're watching "The Matrix". Then I prefer Hoyte van Hoytema's color filter choices for "SPECTRE". Way 'warmer' and 'friendlier'.

    Also I hated the entire greenscreen background behind 007 doubling for Hong Kong's yaught harbour. Man, they should have filmed there on location! And I haven't even talked about the ice surfing scene or the dreadful sped-up editing style. Zao is a henchman, not a frikkin' vampire!

    "Moonraker" at least had charm, as everything during that production was done for real, without CGI. "Die Another Day" however seems to be a 'step-brother' in style to "The Matrix", which basically makes it the most blatant greenscreen film ever in Bond history.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,690
    @Gustav_Graves you already look too far ahead - my first problem in the PTS is trying to believe Pierce Brosnan is doing the surfing. :) I can believe he could drive a tank in 1995 but certainly not surfing like a pro in the shape he was in DAD.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Only a few words of dialogue exchange buries a whole film? I'm talking about her part in Cuba, not the subsequent scenes that is. Just like the Madonna cameo. She's there for less than a minute with a word or two, being nothing than just a character actress, everyone suddenly loses their minds. To me, it doesn't make sense. I've seen more wooden performances in the earlier Bond films, may I cite Talisa Soto's Lupe Lamora (?) a lot more than Denise Richards and Halle Berry. Am I an individual against the fandom collectivism who should be stoned, now? I don't get it, fellas.
  • edited September 2015 Posts: 11,425
    chrisisall wrote: »
    No, DAD's criticisms are not unfair.
    Of course they're not unfair... I simply posit the the hate is.

    ;)

    I also find it hard to hate DAD. It's so ludicrously OTT that it's not possible to take it seriously enough to hate it. I think I actually prefer it to TWINE tbh.
    @Mansfield

    Thanks for your advise. I'm capable of self-criticism. I have already learned my lesson.
    I'm not going to make bold and simple statements again. That's contradictory to making posts with valid arguments. Shame on me.

    I realise I'm the reason for some threads going rogue, so to speak. That's not a good thing. Shame on me again.

    As for @Getafix, you are completely right. I wish I had his gloss and appeal and eloquence for that matter. (Not buttering up here, I mean it)

    Shucks guys, you're making me all embarrassed. Needless to say, the feeling is entirely mutual - chatting and occasionally sparring with you guys is always a joy. I think this site is great evidence that not evey online forum needs to be a hotbed of aggression and hatred. For that we have all the great members to thank and particualrly the moderators who keep an eye on everything.

  • MansfieldMansfield Where the hell have you been?
    edited September 2015 Posts: 1,263
    The PTS of Die Another Day is my favorite part of the movie, and I hold it in my regard as a top 10 PTS. If you want to compare Die Another Day with Skyfall, since it's fair to do in the context that they are both anniversary titles, there is a most distinct difference between the two among all of the smaller things. Skyfall has a central tone that it never gets far away from. That's probably not good if it never pulls you in to begin with, but it makes the final product solid and respectable regardless of how good any of us think it is. Die Another Day puts its ambition into so many different concepts. From a creative perspective, they must have tied their hands behind their backs to try to make it all work together.

    I actually really like Diamonds Are Forever and can't quite explain why. Connery is flat, but he still is Connery. My suspicion is that the story is really good in the first half, and had it had a better second half narrative, would have a lot more to like about it. When the story is following the diamonds, the pacing is well done and captivating. The character of Blofeld is entirely wasted, despite being a formidable villain in his own right. If it retained its positive elements and had a more detailed story connecting to previous events with stronger performances to match, it would be really good.

    The difference between Diamonds Are Forver, Die Another Day, and Moonraker for me is how many moments do I feel detached from the movie. I feel the least detached by far from Diamonds Are Forever, even less than in You Only Live Twice in some of my rankings. Die Another Day and Moonraker have a bit more of those moments. Critically, I should rank Moonraker higher than Die Another Day when I really think about it, but as a Brosnan fan, I buy what he is selling for as long as I can stand it. He put in a formidable performance given the script. I don't really have a logical reason otherwise, since Moonraker has a Barry score, beautiful locations and cinematography.
  • AntiLocqueBrakesAntiLocqueBrakes The edge
    edited September 2015 Posts: 538
    Notes:
    *As a Bond fan, there are no truly bad Bond films.
    *DAD is the movie most of us like the least.
    *DAD is hurt more by the relative awesomeness of CR.
    *Far less "suspension of disbelief" in CR, leads to more credibility by comparison.
    *I love Halle Berry, but almost every line was brutal.
  • MansfieldMansfield Where the hell have you been?
    Posts: 1,263
    *I love Halle Berry, but almost every line was brutal.
    To be fair, I liked the thrust of her dialogue when I was a teenager. =))
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    DAD & DAF are both nutz. Like cashews & pistachios, but I love 'em both. ;)
  • Posts: 11,425
    I don't find DAF that bad. In some ways I find it more entertaining than TB.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,331
    As one of the Biggest Brosnan fans here, even I can't defend Die Another Day...that much. It has a great pre title sequence, score and great first half and pretty good production design. For me it's flaws are Jinx's casting and some dialogue. "Yo Mama." shouldn't be in a Bond movie, that's just insulting. The VR MI6 training sequence. And Colonel Moon's to Gustav Graves' magic plastic surgery. Gene Therapy isn't changing one's physical appearance. It's pretty much body enhancement. The glacier surfing scene should have been axed as well as the car turning invisible. Why show off a beautiful car if your going to make it invisible? And lastly Icarus. The Doomsday satellite was crap in Diamonds are Forever and Batman and Robin, don't know why they went for it again.

    What I don't like about Die Another Day is it's total disregard for physics and realism.

    But it's not beyond saving.

    Make Jinx into Wai Lin, Have Moon get real plastic surgery and stay Asian, no Icarus or Invisible cloak for the Vanquish, And give some more scenes with General Moon and Bond when he's captured. That single scene between them was one of the best in the movie. I would have liked to have seen more. Bond was traded back too soon. That's about it really.
  • edited September 2015 Posts: 11,425
    Murdock wrote: »
    As one of the Biggest Brosnan fans here, even I can't defend Die Another Day...that much. It has a great pre title sequence, score and great first half and pretty good production design. For me it's flaws are Jinx's casting and some dialogue. "Yo Mama." shouldn't be in a Bond movie, that's just insulting. The VR MI6 training sequence. And Colonel Moon's to Gustav Graves' magic plastic surgery. Gene Therapy isn't changing one's physical appearance. It's pretty much body enhancement. The glacier surfing scene should have been axed as well as the car turning invisible. Why show off a beautiful car if your going to make it invisible? And lastly Icarus. The Doomsday satellite was crap in Diamonds are Forever and Batman and Robin, don't know why they went for it again.

    What I don't like about Die Another Day is it's total disregard for physics and realism.

    But it's not beyond saving.

    Make Jinx into Wai Lin, Have Moon get real plastic surgery and stay Asian, no Icarus or Invisible cloak for the Vanquish, And give some more scenes with General Moon and Bond when he's captured. That single scene between them was one of the best in the movie. I would have liked to have seen more. Bond was traded back too soon. That's about it really.

    I remember being quite excited when they originally announced Tamahori. I hadn't seen Once Were Warriors, but I assumed that choosing this director suggested they wanted a more serious, character driven movie. How wrong could I be!

    I'm still not sure whether EON intended for Tamahori to do what he did. Surely they expected him to do something quite different. If they wanted to make a Michael Bay movie, why not get Michael Bay to direct. It just seems so odd that they asked Tamahori - I can't believe they set out to make that movie the way it turned out. I think Tamahori turned out to be very different from what they expected.

    As you say, there was no reason for DAD to be quite as daft as it actually was. It's essnetially the Moonraker novel plot, but they ended up remaking the MR movie instead in terms of tone.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    Murdock wrote: »
    As one of the Biggest Brosnan fans here, even I can't defend Die Another Day...that much.
    What I don't like about Die Another Day is it's total disregard for physics and realism.
    The disregard for physics & realism is a given since the end of the 60's I'm afraid. Movies began ramping up the nonsense after Star Wars, and even Tim's excellent two had a little taste of it. From 1995 on, all bets were off. Brosnan's & Craig's movies were all action hero Bond, and even though QOS toned it down to LTK levels, SF (& likely SP as well) ramped it back up again. The days of Bond (or ANY action movie hero) being a human who can break a bone in a three story jump or be in danger from a ballistic flesh wound are officially over.

  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,331
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    As one of the Biggest Brosnan fans here, even I can't defend Die Another Day...that much.
    What I don't like about Die Another Day is it's total disregard for physics and realism.
    The disregard for physics & realism is a given since the end of the 60's I'm afraid. Movies began ramping up the nonsense after Star Wars, and even Tim's excellent two had a little taste of it. From 1995 on, all bets were off. Brosnan's & Craig's movies were all action hero Bond, and even though QOS toned it down to LTK levels, SF (& likely SP as well) ramped it back up again. The days of Bond (or ANY action movie hero) being a human who can break a bone in a three story jump or be in danger from a ballistic flesh wound are officially over.

    I disagree. Every Bond beyond the 60's still had a grounded in reality approach. Sure they were over the top but they didn't suspend my disbelief as much as Die Another Day did. At least I could believe that the over the top stuff in Moonraker could be done today. We can have a space station and we can have Space soldiers. it's plausable. But Die Another Day's over the top stuff isn't realistic at all. I can't go to a gene therapy clinic and become a completely different person complete with eyes hair and voice and body type. It's impossible. Then their's icarus, which I suppose could technically be done at a much smaller scale but having it be able to have a huge solar beam able to cut through anything is impossible. The Invisible car, I can kinda buy because something similar is being built today. The VR thing is also buyable but it wouldn't look photorealistic as it did in the scene. You can only suspend your disbelief so far.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    Murdock wrote: »
    I disagree.
    You can only suspend your disbelief so far.
    In TB Bond had a problem with a flesh wound on his ankle. That will never happen again with Bond, or ANY action hero. It starts with human limitations for me- technology can go much farther in my personal suspension.
    :)>-
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Bond was not into tech in the novels. Hated change and modern devices.
    I agree. This is why cinematic Bond is not near the Novel Bond basically after Tim's movies. But then, keeping him current and keeping him 'Novel' Bond are mutually exclusive IMO.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited September 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Murdock wrote: »
    As one of the Biggest Brosnan fans here, even I can't defend Die Another Day...that much. It has a great pre title sequence, score and great first half and pretty good production design. For me it's flaws are Jinx's casting and some dialogue. "Yo Mama." shouldn't be in a Bond movie, that's just insulting. The VR MI6 training sequence. And Colonel Moon's to Gustav Graves' magic plastic surgery. Gene Therapy isn't changing one's physical appearance. It's pretty much body enhancement. The glacier surfing scene should have been axed as well as the car turning invisible. Why show off a beautiful car if your going to make it invisible? And lastly Icarus. The Doomsday satellite was crap in Diamonds are Forever and Batman and Robin, don't know why they went for it again.

    Well said.

    I agree and that is why I said before that this film was all about taking the piss out of the franchise, either intentionally (to rival/match Austin Power's incredible success at the time) or unintentionally (which would imply that EON had just totally lost the plot). I'm not sure which of these was the case, but I suspect it was the former, on account of MGM relying on Bond to pay the bills at that time (pre-Sony).

    It's great fun and quite entertaining, but it's not a Bond film. It's doubtlessly a caricature of one.

    We all owe this film a debt though. Why? Simply put, it is plainly the Batman and Robin of the franchise, and like that disgrace of a film, should be credited with at least forcing a long awaited rethink and a rebirth of a beloved franchise in a way that wouldn't have happened if not for it being made.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    bondjames wrote: »
    We all owe this film a debt though. Why? Simply put, it is plainly the Batman and Robin of the franchise, and like that disgrace of a film, should be credited with at least forcing a long awaited rethink and a rebirth of a beloved franchise in a way that wouldn't have happened if not for it being made.
    I cannot disagree here.
  • TreefingersTreefingers Isthmus City, Republic of Isthmus
    edited September 2015 Posts: 191
    You guys want to know what I hate about Die Another Day? Zao having diamonds on his face.

    When Bond was exchanged with him, 14 months had gone by since the events in the pre-title sequence... 14 months. When Bond catches up with him in Cuba and he is half past white he still has them! Why? Was he supposed to absorb them into his organism or something?? Not a doctor, not him, nobody really ever thought of grabbing a pair of tweezers and getting the damn things off?? really???

    Oh, and Graves in his ridiculous Robocop suit throwing rays like he's the Emperor, smh...
  • It lost its appeal 5 minutes into the film at the cinema.
  • Posts: 11,189
    It lost its appeal 5 minutes into the film at the cinema.

    Let me guess? "Saved by the bell"

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