Skyfall would have been a better movie if Pierce was the lead in lieu of Daniel

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  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,882
    Yes, obviously. What I was shocked by was that Brosnan was considered by some to be the best since Connery or *gasp* the best ever.

    That's the fickle press for you.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 17,727
    The last time I click on a thread started by bloomin' @DennisThatcher! :)) 8-|
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    He was great in FYEO.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,586
    RC7 wrote: »
    All of the actors get criticised for one thing or another. There's no more vitarol than when people critisize Dalton for overacting, or the "Dracula" hair in LTK, etc..

    There's a disproportionate level of hate fired at Pierce within the fan community. He's the current whipping boy.
    I'm growing tired of it myself.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    RC7 wrote: »
    All of the actors get criticised for one thing or another. There's no more vitarol than when people critisize Dalton for overacting, or the "Dracula" hair in LTK, etc..

    There's a disproportionate level of hate fired at Pierce within the fan community. He's the current whipping boy.

    Well back in the 1990's, it was as if the sun shone out of Brosnans..... nose. Now that he hasn't been the current Bond for a number of years, the cool aid has worn off, and people can now judge him clearly without the "Best Bond ever / Best Bond since Connery" promotion from the press. If the internet existed as it does now, but back in the 90's, it would have been Dalton that was being torn apart. Craig is getting a lot of love now ( :-?? ), but wait until the next Bond is cast.

    It's always shocked me that Brosnan was once so heavily compared to Connery (at least that's what I hear). Amusing in a kind of sad way, but I will chalk it up to people being so desperate for Bond again following the hiatus that they were ready to instantly love anything they got. Of course the more positive acclaim of Goldeneye must have also helped, because people could always say of Brosnan, "[Such and such] might not be a great film, but he did Goldeneye and that was good."

    The press at the time said he was a good combination of the hardness of Connery and the smoothness of Moore. The truth is that he falls short on both counts and wasn't as good as either actor.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Connery and Moore had their faults but, the older I get, the more I see what people mean when they talk about them oozing a sense of confidence. Both made it always look easy and you rarely if ever got the sense they were intimidated by the role.

    (In Moore's case I suspect playing a version of himself contributed to his confidence as, for him, he was in safe territory and could "do his thing")
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I don't have a single complaint about Connery's performances, in any of the films. I hold the script of You Only Live Twice responsible for people viewing him as tired in the role, as the narrative really loses sense of what Bond is feeling in its attempt to be ambitious, and because of that Sean gets lost too.

    The single criticism I have is that after 1965, he let himself go. In You Only Live Twice you could see that he had added on a fair bit of belly weight, and by Diamonds Are Forever that pudginess carried into his face too. He wasn't aging gracefully, and because of that he feels less Bondian than in his first four. It's very important for a Bond actor to look the part as well as act it, and while he had all of the latter, the former was hurting his portrayal and overall effectiveness. Gone was the sleek, athletic and panther like fiend, replaced by a man who looked like a copper close to retirement who'd taken the liberty of a few too many on-duty donuts.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Indeed. Connery was something of a porker in his later films and hardly a blunt instrument.
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,727
    NicNac wrote: »
    Finger hovering over the lock button..... ;)

    Hovering? I would have thought it would have come crashing down by now...
  • Posts: 14,799
    I'll say it again, no other Bond actor had it as easy as Brosnan when cast. He was hailed the greatest since Connery before a single scene of GE was shot. Since he never had to prove himself there was going to be a backlash later on.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I'll say it again, no other Bond actor had it as easy as Brosnan when cast. He was hailed the greatest since Connery before a single scene of GE was shot. Since he never had to prove himself there was going to be a backlash later on.

    I get the sense that the Bond loving public also thought Brosnan was cheated out of it the first time around (which he kind of was), so when he finally got the role it was a bit of a victory worth celebrating and, in their minds, long overdue.
  • Posts: 11,425
    IF we had to have had another Brosnan yawn fest, then I can see that having him in SF would have made some sense. If he could have played it straight without gurning, winking and grunting his way through the film it might have worked. Not a fan of SF any way so wouldn't really care too much about Brosnan being in it.
  • Posts: 2,341
    I think SF is perfect the way it is and Brosnan would have just ruined it and made it as boring as his last three pictures.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,328
    I think he would have worked fine in it. It would have been great to see him work with some darker material. With him in it, it would be just as good.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    We just need Pierce to do more November Man films, though I fear the first didn't have the impact it deserved to have to secure more sequels.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Daniel Craig is not the problem of Skyfall, not the biggest anyway.
  • Posts: 533
    The leading man wasn't the problem. The narrative was.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I personally thought he was a bit nasty & overly animated in November Man. Somewhat lacking in the calm suaveness I expect from Bond and leaning more towards the frayed & 'annoyed' energy that Dalton often exhibited.

    I realize it's a fine line, but I prefer 'film' Bond to retain a little 'stylish calm' while doing what he does, and I think Connery, early Moore and early Craig best capture that.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    bondjames wrote: »
    I personally thought he was a bit nasty & overly animated in November Man. Somewhat lacking in the calm suaveness I expect from Bond and leaning more towards the frayed & 'annoyed' energy that Dalton often exhibited.

    I realize it's a fine line, but I prefer 'film' Bond to retain a little 'stylish calm' while doing what he does, and I think Connery, early Moore and early Craig best capture that.

    Well, yes, the man Pierce plays is a far different man than Bond, so the performances will fluctuate. Peter is frayed and annoyed because he's been thrown into a conspiracy he didn't ask for while trying to enjoy a quiet retirement, and on top of that he's got past allies turning on him. He'd be a robot if that didn't get him losing his cool.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2017 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    I personally thought he was a bit nasty & overly animated in November Man. Somewhat lacking in the calm suaveness I expect from Bond and leaning more towards the frayed & 'annoyed' energy that Dalton often exhibited.

    I realize it's a fine line, but I prefer 'film' Bond to retain a little 'stylish calm' while doing what he does, and I think Connery, early Moore and early Craig best capture that.

    Well, yes, the man Pierce plays is a far different man than Bond, so the performances will fluctuate. Peter is frayed and annoyed because he's been thrown into a conspiracy he didn't ask for while trying to enjoy a quiet retirement, and on top of that he's got past allies turning on him. He'd be a robot if that didn't get him losing his cool.
    Yes, I agree. That sort of characterization suits Brosnan very well & he played a similarly animated (but more crafty) spy in Tailor of Panama (one of my favourite Brosnan performances). I have mentioned to other members here in the past that the Devereaux character is quite different from Bond.
  • Posts: 11,425
    DRush76 wrote: »
    The leading man wasn't the problem. The narrative was.

    Agreed. Lots of good things about SF but bad plot
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I personally thought he was a bit nasty & overly animated in November Man. Somewhat lacking in the calm suaveness I expect from Bond and leaning more towards the frayed & 'annoyed' energy that Dalton often exhibited.

    I realize it's a fine line, but I prefer 'film' Bond to retain a little 'stylish calm' while doing what he does, and I think Connery, early Moore and early Craig best capture that.

    Well, yes, the man Pierce plays is a far different man than Bond, so the performances will fluctuate. Peter is frayed and annoyed because he's been thrown into a conspiracy he didn't ask for while trying to enjoy a quiet retirement, and on top of that he's got past allies turning on him. He'd be a robot if that didn't get him losing his cool.
    Yes, I agree. That sort of characterization suits Brosnan very well & he played a similarly animated (but more crafty) spy in Tailor of Panama (one of my favourite Brosnan performances). I have mentioned to other members here in the past that the Devereaux character is quite different from Bond.

    Bond and Devereaux have the same commitment to duty, resourcefulness, compassion and hint of hardness, but the latter also lacks the snobbiness, sophistication, elegance of movement and carnal addictions that the former does. None of these make Devereaux worse or weaker, thougj, as I'd quicker watch more November Man movies than most of Brosnan's Bonds, it just makes him different.

    We can even see in the clothes Devereaux wears-suit coats with jeans and shirts with heavy wrinkling in them-that he doesn't care for looking his best or taking the risk of standing out while on the job. He just puts on what's around him while in the field and calls it a day.

    The suit Pierce wears at the end of the film though, the gray suit with black dress shirt, is one of my favorite ensembles I've seen him in. It reminds me of the linen suit he wears at the end of TWINE and another tweak on a similar look in DAD. Pierce actually looks better as Bond with an open collar sans tie, which can't be said for any other Bond actor in my mind.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Bond and Devereaux have the same commitment to duty, resourcefulness, compassion and hint of hardness, but the latter also lacks the snobbiness, sophistication, elegance of movement and carnal addictions that the former does. None of these make Devereaux worse or weaker, thougj, as I'd quicker watch more November Man movies than most of Brosnan's Bonds, it just makes him different.
    Me too. The character allows Brosnan to let his hair down, which is where he's best imho. Bond is a more confined character.
  • Posts: 4,599
    I have always said that SF was written perfectly as an actor's last Bond. The thems of age, "losing a step", time etc are just perfect. All you do is take out the last scene. I was never a big fan of PB but he was given some dreadful scripts IMHO and I dont think we saw his real potential (sometimes you need a director to really push an actor). Part of me does like the idea of him receiving M's bulldog and then he stands there in silence, over looking the London skyline as we slowly pull away. I much nicer and classier way to say farewell to PB than DAD.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,243
    Murdock wrote: »
    The oomph of Brosnan? Come off it. At least Dalton tried something (whether it worked or not is a different matter). What did Brosnan do? Suggest the tie straightening under the water in TWINE. Woah... don't dazzle us with your creativity, Brosnan.

    Bottom line, Dalton had everything but an audience. Brosnan had an audience, but no idea of his Bond.

    Oh please, Dalton didn't fair better. Whenever he was miffed he'd get all misty eyed and grit his teeth like he was doing a French Stewart impression.

    Grit his teeth like this...?

    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/j5rj4hvVdUw/maxresdefault.jpg

    Murdock wrote: »
    Oh yes how can we get the underwater tie straightening, that was such a pivotal moment. And where does that come off as Pierce's idea?

    On one documentary, it was stated that it was Brosnan's idea.
    Murdock wrote: »
    Do you know if that was Pierce's idea?

    See above.
    Murdock wrote: »
    Or maybe the filmmakers.

    Again, see above.
    Murdock wrote: »
    You come off it. What did Dalton do? Try to act cool but failing at it.

    He didn't try to act cool, because acting cool wasn't what he was aiming for.
    Murdock wrote: »
    Why is he so great?

    Because he brought a new style to Bond, and was excellent at doing so. He might have lacked the uber manliness of Connery, but Dalton's Bond was still tough when needed, and was a Bond quite ready to get his hands dirty. And while he didn't overdo the charm, we could be charming when needed. He brought an intense, ruthless edge to Bond that hadn't been seen before. He also sprinkled in subtle touches (such as Bond scanning the evironment around him at different times and his sublte displeasure at the coffee in the Prater Cafe.
    Murdock wrote: »
    I don't see it He was in one weak film and one good one and Licence to Kill wasn't good because of him.

    I disagree. He was in two excellent films. One a classy latter day cold war spy thriller with a romatic edge, and one down n' dirty action revenge thriller. Both work because of Dalton, he didn't sit back at let his films carry him, he took on the role already knowing exactly what he wanted to do with the role. Again, whether he was good or bad is personal opinion, but he knew what he wanted to and did his best to make it happen. I would rather an actor try and fail, rather than sit back and not try at all.

    Very well put, if I may say so. Dalton played Bond as in the spirit of the books. He did not copy the previous actors. Sadly, the public by then, thought Bond was a pretty boy in a suit. Always perfect.

    Those who question Dalton's acting chops are doing themselves a disservice. He did a lot of theatre forgoing movies to build his reputation. Theatre is challenging to say the least, being a live experience. He was not about the fame and always had integrity. Watch him in Jane Eyre, and that is a complicated role to carry. The dialogue is intense, with sometimes long takes. And Penny Dreadful anyone?

    He had little time to prepare for Bond, due to the last minute casting and should be f**king applauded for doing a great job!


    I love the roughness he showed in the character. Bond being a spy, is like an actor, and will adapt his personality as the situation calls. Some Bond actors played Bond as if they had an audience watching them, requiring them to be on form all the time!

    Bond is not this perfect man image, that some hold onto. And Dalton really challenged that first. Before Craig. He was a building block for the series.



  • Posts: 11,189
    I've seen Dalton in part of Jane Eyre and I like him in it. But the style of that is certainly like a play as is Dalton's performance. You could see him playing it in a similar way on stage. That's really an issue I have with Dalton and personally I agree with those who say he is a "stagey" actor.

    I certainly admire those that can do theatre. It looks tough and challenging industry, but I can't help but feel that Dalton's style is perhaps a bit too theatre-orientated and dramatic.

    Compare him to someone like Dench for instance who also had a very distinguished theatre background and has transferred to film very successfully. Her performances on film seem a bit more subtle and less "in your face".
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,243
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I've seen Dalton in part of Jane Eyre and I like him in it. But the style of that is certainly like a play as is Dalton's performance. You could see him playing it in a similar way on stage. That's really an issue I have with Dalton and personally I agree with those who say he is a "stagey" actor.

    I certainly admire those that can do theatre. It looks tough and challenging industry, but I can't help but feel that Dalton's style is perhaps a bit too theatre-orientated and dramatic.

    Compare him to someone like Dench for instance who also had a very distinguished theatre background and has transferred to film very successfully. Her performances on film seem a bit more subtle and less "in your face".

    Have you seen him in Framed? He gives a great performance in that and certainly not stagey. He has the wolf in him.

    Judi Dench is playing a completely different role. Unfair comparisson. See Dalton playing an M type role in The Tourist opposite Paul Bettany. Certainly not theatrical and he shows how capable he is in whatever you present to him.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2017 Posts: 23,883
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Compare him to someone like Dench for instance who also had a very distinguished theatre background and has transferred to film very successfully. Her performances on film seem a bit more subtle and less "in your face".
    I've really grown to appreciate and miss Dench since she exited the role. I was a critic of her M in the past (most notably because of her intro dressing down of Bond in GE, which I found unwelcome & her field appearance in TWINE. I accept that this clouded my views on her). I now realize that she really helped elevate both Craig's & Brosnan's performance.

    I'd take a Dench/Craig dialogue scene over a Harris/Fiennes/Whishaw/Craig scene any day of the week and twice on Sunday. There was 'dramatic heft' in those encounters.
  • Posts: 11,189
    acoppola wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I've seen Dalton in part of Jane Eyre and I like him in it. But the style of that is certainly like a play as is Dalton's performance. You could see him playing it in a similar way on stage. That's really an issue I have with Dalton and personally I agree with those who say he is a "stagey" actor.

    I certainly admire those that can do theatre. It looks tough and challenging industry, but I can't help but feel that Dalton's style is perhaps a bit too theatre-orientated and dramatic.

    Compare him to someone like Dench for instance who also had a very distinguished theatre background and has transferred to film very successfully. Her performances on film seem a bit more subtle and less "in your face".

    Have you seen him in Framed? He gives a great performance in that and certainly not stagey. He has the wolf in him.

    Judi Dench is playing a completely different role. Unfair comparisson. See Dalton playing an M type role in The Tourist opposite Paul Bettany. Certainly not theatrical and he shows how capable he is in whatever you present to him.

    I've heard of Framed and that he's good in that. I know its on YouTube and have tried watching it but the quality is really bad.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,243
    bondjames wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Compare him to someone like Dench for instance who also had a very distinguished theatre background and has transferred to film very successfully. Her performances on film seem a bit more subtle and less "in your face".
    I've really grown to appreciate and miss Dench since she exited the role. I was a critic of hers in the past (most notably because of her intro dressing down of Bond in GE, which I found unwelcome & her field appearance in TWINE. I accept that this clouded my views on her). I now realize that she really helped elevate both Craig's & Brosnan's performance.

    I'd take a Dench/Craig dialogue scene over a Harris/Fiennes/Whishaw/Craig scene any day of the week and twice on Sunday. There was 'dramatic heft' in those encounters.

    One point I agree on is a fine actor helps other actors elevate their performance. The best actor Dalton had was Robert Davi. They learned to only cast good actors around Craig to elevate him, and that included the Bond girls. Denise Richards opposite Brosnan is asking for trouble. Imagine CR with Richards instead of Green, and the execution of the scene would have been watered down.

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