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Absolutely. =D>
I'm so glad the UK and the US are leading the way in this. EU is slow on the uptake, but will catch on soon enough. It wouldn't surprise me if France got a referendum soon. They desperately need one.
Not as tough as falling into relativism.
I can tell you who: the rich, the elites, the truly privileged.
They love open borders because it means lots of cheap labour. Plus, families of immigrants are a lot easier to manipulate for political purposes because they have such basic concerns, but their votes mean just as much as a more discerning middle-class white family. That's why so many elections nowadays are decided by the 'Hispanic vote' for instance.
The issue here, and why Christians take big flack is because you have major centers of the religion always condemning, for instance, homosexuality, a completely natural state and something a person is born with. Homosexuality is seen by them as some kind of physical enemy that will tear apart the fabric of the world if it isn't stopped, but they at the same moment fail to see how their rabid intolerance incites the same exact unraveling. The point is, you hear anti-gay rhetoric preached everywhere, and by major figures in Christianity and Catholicism.
Where do you see groups of Muslims all getting together in a mosque and rallying for terrorist bombings? Killing western influence with bombs and guns isn't a part of their religion as written, and it isn't a priority the majority preach like a massive amount of Christianity and Catholicism that has a long and on record hatred of homosexuality and scores of other issues that are bogus, illogical and just plain cruel to pick a person apart for.
But it's a leftist issue of course, whatever that's supposed to mean. Some here aren't doing a very good job separating themselves from the radical religious they are rallying against, as they are proving with each post just how easy it is to justify anything to yourself if you believe it enough.
It's important not to jump to conclusions, shut up borders and close people out because that's where toxic assumptions are made about a people. We already see Islamophobia rearing its head more and more these days since 9/11, where every "towel head" is packing a bomb, or is planning on packing one at every moment of every day. Shutting out members of an entire faith as some actually want to do makes no sense. In a globalized world where so much of what we do is predicated on each other, that can't stand, whether people like it or not. More controlled borders are needed, of course, but walls? Certainly not.
And good luck fighting the terrorists by putting up those walls when you see more domestic terrorism than anything else. We don't like to see our own people as susceptible to radical influences, but we see it more and more each day. You don't see people paying as much attention to that important point, though.
@Gustav_Graves, I just want to quickly point out that I see what you are arguing, and I think it's unfair some of the responses you're getting back. For my money we need more like you, because you are able to see a path towards a greater understanding between religions and you don't think it's a backwards notion to reach across the aisle as a man of Christian influence to those practicing an Islamic faith. You're doing important work in your local home, and I fear some others who practice your faith are so caught up in their own pride and their religion's strict faith that they find it impossible for them to accommodate members of a different one in their lives. You've found a way to have a faith system without giving in to the divisiveness or prejudice, and most saliently of all, you still have hope. Most days, I can't say that, so I commend you.
Muslims aren't bitter about separation of church and state because Muslim countries don't have separation of church and state. I would've thought that was obvious...
An interesting post. Just picking up on the above point - now that you've expounded the Christian stance could you please explain the Muslim viewpoint on homosexuality? Are they more tolerant than those of the Christian faith? What about Islamic fanatics who subscribe to the ISIS teachings & then go onto commit attacks such as those witnessed in France? What do they feel about homosexuality?
Added as an edit: I would just like to point out what a refreshing change it is to be able to engage in debate with both sides of the argument being given their heads. I'm not a forum person & the only other one I belonged to was far removed from MI6. There was one chap who has similar viewpoints to Gustav regarding the EU (I'm only making an analogy here Gustav - there is no malice intended). This person simply would not accept any counterpoints or argument. In short he only liked to play so long as he could dictate the terms. Unfortunately he was backed up by the mods & after he set up a thread where he dictated his POV & lambasted all others I posted the following remark "Todays Airstrip One update brought to you by the Ministry of Truth - Learn, Understand, Accept" I was promptly banned!
The point being that, although this thread will be under observation - it shows what a good job the mods here are doing to allow everyone a chance to air their opinions while administering the site rules in an even handed manner.
Yeah, it makes no sense that someone can hate one religion for its slightly homophobic views, and then defend another religion which literally does not permit homosexuality whatsoever.
Bottom line ALL Abrahamic faiths are against homosexuality and condemn it to a degree. Like all of them are against secularism and the separation of Church and State. Now the believers may not have the same attitude but that does not exonerate the faiths themselves. Which are run and maintained by their most practicing and integrist elements, not their most moderate.
How some read my post and thought anything otherwise, I have no idea. We don't need to reteach text analysis from the ground up just to have a debate, do we?
Yeah, exactly.
Which of course a lot of moderate in every faith do: "oh but look at the context", "it was in a different time" but yet they think the ten commandments are the basis of all morals.
It's laughable that behaviour and attitudes that used to prevail in the 70s and 80s with regard to things such as race, homosexuality and women are now utterly verboten in modern society.
Yet we tolerate people quoting an archaic book that is thousands of years old and has absolutely no bearing on how we live today because it's their belief and they have to be respected.
A neat way of avoiding my questions! Have you ever thought of a career in politics? I hear the EU will have a few bureaucratic vacancies when the UK waves ta ta! ;)
None of my posts were in reference to you, so you've lost me there. I don't like discussing this kind of topic, or any topic as heated as it, and only do so sporadically when I feel it's getting a bit too much and another perspective could be given on things.
With these kinds of religious discussions it always starts off simply enough. Another attack happens, we mourn the victims with a terse and tired statement like, "they're in our prayers" or "Terrible news, tragic." Then the discussion of what needs to be done happens where people begin exchanging ideas, but then it all grows more like it has been lately where people sling about personal attacks and tirades against one another. When it grows counter-intuitive to debate with those that are only looking for people to speak with who agree with them, what's the point of wasting all this energy really?
I'll see you folks again the next time this all happens for another rousing debate. Probably this time tomorrow, actually, if this year is any indication. Have fun carpet bombing each other's character until then.
And yes the Qu'ran does advocate for the murder of disbelievers. In some circumstances, but I'd argue that none are justifiable or excusable:
@TheWizardOfIce, that's the problem, isn't it? We have to tolerate, we have to respect. Tolerate and respect what?
- The fact that children are brought up amidst a young-Earth-creationist mentality and are thus put in a competitive disadvantage? That is a form of child abuse.
- The fact that people who pray to some supernatural being for nice weather, good grades and a fertile womb, are left in charge of major industrial companies, powerful political offices and the military, and thereby in some way or another influence the lives of us all?
- The fact that Jihadism is a widespread phenomenon, more often than not connected to slick imams who, in the privates of their secret meeting places, turn the minds of bright young men in potato mash and send them into battle with a recipe for kitchen made explosives? Why must we tolerate their suspicious secrecy? Why must we respect hate preaching against the very people in whose country they reside? Why must we respect the fact that they want to impose "sharia" (or whatever the hell it's called, that moronic thing they so proudly cling to) on us all?
- The fact that making fun of Islam is considered racist (which it isn't given that Islam is not a "race"), while Islam treats women as the lowest form of life on Earth?
- ...
When will people realize that not all opinions or lifestyles have to be respected or even tolerated, let alone endorsed by silly laws? In some parts of the world it's forbidden by law to negate the Holocaust, and righteously so. So if we have the balls to act up against neo-Nazism, why don't we have the balls to forbid young-Earth-creationism (which is the equivalent of terror in an intellectual sense), hate preaching in churches, mosques and other "holy" places, the suppression of women in the name of whatever supreme non-existent being keeps you warm at night, ... ? Because we have to "respect" everyone's opinion? In matters such as these, which mark the difference between being forever stuck in medieval times and positive progression towards a sane and thus also secular future, some opinions cannot be respected nor tolerated. Yet we remain seated, one finger in each nose hole, one up the ass, trusting that if we are kind enough to respect Jihadists and Bible belters, they will be kind enough to respect us...
Now, let's talk about respecting everyone's opinion. I need to respect the opinion of a Jihadist that I am to be slain like a dog for being an "infidel" - or in my case even worse, an "antitheist" - because if I don't, and if I call Islam dangerous, retarded and an unpleasant tumour that has to be cut out immediately, I'm branded a bigot and in some cases sent to court where I might actually be punished for, indeed, bigotry and racial slur.
The Bible is no better. The Old Testament is one of the most horrible books ever written. Yet we condone its existence and publication because of its historical value. Tragically, many on this planet still read the Old Testament as a practical guide for how to behave in our modern society. So basically, they submit themselves to the violent, ignorant, misogynist and scientifically illiterate "wisdom" of - to quote Lawrence Krauss - "Iron Age peasants who thought the Sun revolved around the Earth". The Old Testament of the Christian Bible is, by the way, also the source of Islamic "truths". It's a profoundly inspiring list of rules and guidelines for, amongst other things,
1) how to beat your wife to a pulp or stone her to death in case she was raped
2) and for how to slaughter people of a different persuasion till the last one died
That first thing is silly enough to make any sane person realize he's dealing with a horrible remnant of the days when people chewed raw meat and threw the bones behind them. Sadly, in many Islamic countries, the practice of killing women like they are termites is considered good practice, defended by the law (!), even in 2016, which is a horrendous thing if you think about it past the headlines on CNN. However, the second part is even more interesting because the Old Testament, the very foundation of "modern" (notice please that I'm not sure that word is properly used in this context) Christianity and Islam, does a lousy job demanding respect for everyone's opinion. No, those who disagree with you should die. Most Bible belters will, of course, refrain from killing people; they only enjoy killing their own offspring by denying them proper medical treatments in case of severe illness because sticking needles in your body, receiving other people's blood and swallowing compounds obtained through genetically manipulated organisms, will send them straight to hell. (Indeed, it's better to send a 6 year old child who's never had a chance to grow up and think for itself outside the barbaric clutches of its stubborn parents, to heaven, than it is to have it properly cured, allow it to live a long and fruitful and hopefully secular life, and then join the rest of us in hell, where we enjoy hot chilli peppers on a daily basis, have demonic sex with devilish babes and are kept warm, even during those cold winter nights, by the fires of doom.)
Islam, however, does condone and in some cases even endorse killing people whose opinion it clearly doesn't respect. Why then am I so careful about which words to use in class, lest I be branded a racist for saying anything at all that goes against the insanities of Islamic doctrine? Because in this PC society, we have grown so weak that we rather behave like minions under the delusion of still being safe and in charge, than to be faced with another round of hippy protests or be called a racist by Ben Affleck because you warn people that more terrorist attacks will follow as a consequence of things not being properly handled. Being accused of racism happens everyday. I'm a "racist" because I don't think embassies should be burned down over some cartoons. I'm a "racist" because I expect my students to sit in class, Ramadan or not. I'm a 'racist' because I know that supreme deities don't exist and if they did, I wouldn't want to live in a universe controlled by them. I'm a "racist" because... I have an opinion. And since it's not respecting theirs, it's a malicious opinion in some way, to be punished by death or, at the very least, by a legal accusation of bigotry... and yes, there are some judges who will take this seriously believe it or not.
Let's be honest, some. opinions. are. wrong. Some opinions needn't be respected. Those who preach intolerance, are the first to cry when they are met with that very thing, intolerance. Am I the pot or the kettle? I don't care. I know one thing though. I believe in the freedom of the mind FROM THE DELUSION OF A UNIVERSAL CREATOR WHO TELLS ONE GROUP OF MORONS TO GO AND KILL THE REST OF US.
Ah well, Christians had their crusades and the Church got away with it. Now certain Muslims have their crusades. Who will be next? The Scientologists? I'd love to see that. Tom Cruise and John Travolta leading the war against the very medical treatments that might have cured J - okay, that would be too low even by my standards.
Pick a decent history book and you'll find that religions were around way before the Jewish religion was.
And Jews have suffered through Europa, Asia, Afrika and the America's until recent times. Economical bad times lets blame the Jews.
O:-)
Now we have a new victim, economical bad times lets blame the Arabs because their silly religion makes them not want to integrate. Flipping heck up the the beginning of the 20th century we had them on a leash and now they have ideas of their own whic hwe cannot condone.
Women are not some lesser form unless you look in the US were in recent years men were taking away the womens rights to birth control (we are not paying for those sluts to have sex but the boner pills stays in the offer for free medication), no right to female healthcare unless .... I often wonder why the US fight on women is so dissimilar from the Muslims. Because the women in the US have head start does not mean they will be better off in the near future and certainly not with that Ginger twat as a president. He fucking imports his eastern European women.
The terror thrown on our European shores is a severe backlash for our interference in the middle east were we meddle with forces we look with our western eyes at but do not comprehend. Look at the most of Africa where we already fucked up with the decolonizing and leaving them to solve a mess and then calling them incompetent.
We civilized western world had some major wars in recent times that shows us still being nationalist morons who prefer their own little kingdom over the big world even if this world has become way smaller than a century ago.
Nice and such are terrible moments in history that also proves that you cannot stop a moron when he wants to hurt people. How do you defend against a bloody big truck or a car in the Netherlands?- The whole idea of terror is destabilizing our society and we bloody allow them with new draconian measures that solve nothing but taking away more human rights each day all in the name of safety.
Freedom of movement should be banned because some people will abuse it?- Hell everything gets abused if our race gets its grubby hands on it.
Can we stop terrorism, only the organised military version of it, but the disenfranchised can never be stopped if they want their ideas impressed on the other people. Albeit religious, moral, democratic, the recent weeks have shown a severely divided UK in which the minority of 48% should shut the fuck up and abandon their democratic freedom to demonstrate and still stand up for their views. Some folks have actually said that on this forum. Wars have started because of less.
For me the terrorism, right-wings resurgence the mess on most continents is mostly traced back to one thing, the ability to not work together and blatant nationalism created by people who manage it like power. looking forward to my reading of the reformation European house divided.
Why, because history shows us how often we repeat the same mistake over and over, and learn bloody nothing.
Terror is not a state or a known criminal.
These terrorists are finally getting back at the West for all the pain and suffering the West has caused to them since the Crusades and since the end of World War I
The Iraq invasion destabilized the region and has led (along with the Syrian civil war) to the creation of ISIS.
Our government insistence on sending unmanned drones into public centers over there killing innocents to take out one terror leader (who is promptly replaced BTW).
the terrorists are independent cells which have their own agenda. They do not posses a nuclear navy or cruise missiles or sophisticated drones with which to kill civil populations they resort to something less expensive methods that can kill civilians in the West.
France with its colonial records is as hated as the British and the USA
A final note on the drone attacks: Back in the eighties Drug lord Pablo Escobar blew up an airliner with 120 people on board to kill one justice official. US and the world screamed foul at Escobar...what makes us any different with our drones blasting a public market just to kill one terrorist leader? In the USA all we hear is that a drone killed Assad-whatever- but it never tells how many innocents our sophisticated killing machines maimed and killed in the process.
With so much killing how will it ever end? Who do you negotiate with? ISIS is here to stay, live with it...as for Afghanistan we cannot reach a military decision there so why not open negotiations with the Taliban? Bin Laden is dead since 2010 and we got what we came for so why not just open negotiations?
Tell me please.
Oh and Islam is a silly religion. So is Christianity but it seriously lost its influence in the Western world. Even in the USA.
Dimi's on fire
Religious nuts are terrified
Dimi's on fire
All your gods are a load of shite
Na na na na na nah na na nah na na nah
Na na na na na nah na na nah na na nah
Post of the year mate. I'm with you all the way.
About time the sane stood up and said 'you're all mental' instead of pussyfooting around trying not to offend these morons.
At some point in history people had to let go the concept of a flat earth as being inherently ridiculous despite all their ancestors believing steadfastly in it. We are at that point now with religion. Don't be scared of turning your back on what your parents indoctrinated you with because they themselves had been indoctrinated as had their parents before them and so on.
It's time to finally make the break and we atheists need to stop being so shy and start calling out people as idiots for believing this shockingly written drivel (the bible is so riddled with holes and inconsistencies P&W might have written it FFS).
Everyone has a right to their beliefs and that shouldnt change. What should change is that you openly get ridiculed if you admit to believing in a magic being up in the sky who created everything and will look after you when you die - because dying really sucks doesn't it? So it's nice to delude ourselves that there's a heaven? Grow the fuck up and stop behaving like a toddler. When you're dead you're dead and that's it. What makes people so arrogant to think there's something special about us humans that makes us different to a chicken that has its neck wrung and ends up in an ASDA value chicken and leek pie or a hedgehog that gets splattered across the A47 from Swaffham to Norwich? We're made of the same bone, offal and gristle and we end up just the same as your pet hamster did when you buried it in the ground in 1987. So stop wasting your time with praying and get on with the fleeting moments of existence that you have been lucky enough to have been granted.
You know how we all laugh at those Channel 5 documentaries about people who have sex with their car or who collect milk bottle tops in their garage or who are scared of jelly? Well that's what religion should become - just an amusing freak show (like it isn't already?) for a bit of mindless entertainment on a Thursday evening while you are waiting for the news at 10.
Everywhere you look the world is currently dying from the cancer of religion and you know what they say - laughter is the best medicine.
Obviously I'm not saying an absence of religion would cure all the problems in the world but it would be one hell of a base to start from.
Peoples Need Moral Support, Food; A good Job and EDUCATION.
What we do not know, We Have To Learn From Eachother,
Our Skin Colour are not determining What we know as a Collective.
Random Fears Because of the UNKNOWN has come To Determine Our Actions.
Thereby Our Wars Against OURSELVES..!
With A Little HUMANITY The HUMAN Race can FIX that..!
Our Respective Religions If Any; Comes Second To That.
In Any Case; The UNKNOWN Rules For Most Of The Time...!
This Nice Last Attack Was One Out Of Ignorance-The Relative Ignorance Of Your OPPOSITE's...That Mirrors Your Own Ignorance.
(And So It Continues As It Has Ever Done Since The Beginning of TIME.).