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The June 2016 UK Referendum on EU Membership: [UPDATE] What kind of BREXIT do YOU want?

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  • SpectreNumberTwoSpectreNumberTwo
    Posts: 389
    Did you hear that some in the Scottish parliament are beginning to say that Nicola Sturgeon's position on the EU is as big a poison chalice as DC's when he called the referendum. Interesting. >:)
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,261
    Just thinking about all Bond movies retitled in the wake of Brexit:

    1. Doctor Brexit
    2. From Brexit with Love
    3. Brexitfinger
    4. Thunderbrexit
    5. You'll only brexit twice
    6. On her Majesty's Brexit Service
    7. Brexits are forever
    8. Brexit and let brexit
    9. The Man with the Golden Brexit
    10. The Brexit who loved me
    11. Brexitraker
    12. For Your Brexit Only
    13. Brexitpussy
    14. A View to a Brexit
    15. The Lieving Brexits
    16. Licence to Brexit/Brexit to Kill
    17. GoldenBrexit
    18. Brexit never dies
    19. Brexit is not enough
    20. Brexit another day
    21. Brexit Royale
    22. Quantum of Brexit
    23. Brexitfall
    24. Brexictre
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    SpectreNumberTwo wrote: »
    Did you hear that some in the Scottish parliament are beginning to say that Nicola Sturgeon's position on the EU is as big a poison chalice as DC's when he called the referendum. Interesting. >:)

    Haven't heard that particular phrase yet. Though to be expected.

    I'm not a blind follower of Nicola, far from. Nor do I get paid for blowing her horn. But I think she made the right move to show her intentions and be decisive about it. That's more than can be said about any halfar**d six pack from London over the last few days. That woman has got her work cut out for her and it's the toughest job any politician north of the border has had for decades if not centuries. Make no mistake, this will be difficult for all of us. But I trust she up for it.

  • SpectreNumberTwoSpectreNumberTwo
    edited July 2016 Posts: 389
    When you say north of the border, do you mean Watford Gap. :D
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited July 2016 Posts: 17,809
    Nicola Sturgeon is a conniving and opportunistic little witch who can't accept the will of the Scottish people a mere two years ago (not even!) and who reminds me of those malcontents south of the Scottish border involved in the lamentable "March for Europe" yesterday. These should have called it the March on [the Treaty of] Rome as their desire to overturn a free and fair fully democratically-compliant EU referendum is much more fascistic than they (the Loony Left and wet Tories) themselves would ever conceivably believe. The UK voted LEAVE. Yeah, get over it!
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Nicola Sturgeon is a conniving and opportunistic little witch who can't accept the will of the Scottish people a mere two years ago (not even!) and who reminds me of those malcontents south of the Scottish border involved in the lamentable March for Europe. These should have called it the March on [the Treaty of] Rome as their desire to overturn a free and fair fully democratically-compliant EU referendum is much more fascistic than they (the Loony Left and wet Tories) themselves would ever conceivably believe. The UK voted LEAVE. Yeah, get over it!

    Try and stop us, Brian. Maybe Erica will lend you a hand. :D

  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    SpectreNumberTwo wrote: »
    Did you hear that some in the Scottish parliament are beginning to say that Nicola Sturgeon's position on the EU is as big a poison chalice as DC's when he called the referendum. Interesting. >:)

    No, that's news to me. As far as I can see, unless things have changed, if Scotland had voted for independence she would have been removed from the EU. Any future successful vote for the same would still have the same outcome. Scotland would have to apply then accept the terms of all new EU joiners (adopting the Euro etc).

    Here's some reading:

    http://europa.eu/about-eu/countries/joining-eu/index_en.htm

  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 17,809
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Nicola Sturgeon is a conniving and opportunistic little witch who can't accept the will of the Scottish people a mere two years ago (not even!) and who reminds me of those malcontents south of the Scottish border involved in the lamentable March for Europe. These should have called it the March on [the Treaty of] Rome as their desire to overturn a free and fair fully democratically-compliant EU referendum is much more fascistic than they (the Loony Left and wet Tories) themselves would ever conceivably believe. The UK voted LEAVE. Yeah, get over it!

    Try and stop us, Brian. Maybe Erica will lend you a hand. :D

    Erica?!
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    @stag And here's some reading for you on article 48 of the Treaty. I bolded the important parts. Overall still too doubtful. Well, that's what negotiations are there for.



    The claim: An independent Scotland could remain a member of the European Union while the rest of the UK left, in effect taking over Britain's membership of the EU rather than having to start a fresh application to join as a new country.

    Reality Check verdict: The situation is unclear. If Scotland were to hold a second referendum, and become independent, it could apply to become a member of the EU in the usual way. And it is now more plausible that EU member states would try to speed up the process for Scotland than it would have been at the time of the 2014 independence referendum. But we cannot say if it would be able to continue as a member without going through some sort of application process.
    The UK as a whole has voted to leave the European Union. But Scotland voted in favour of the UK staying in by 62% to 38% - with all 32 council areas backing Remain.
    In response to the result, Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said: "Scotland has voted to stay in the EU and I intend to discuss all options to do so."
    She said that the option of a second referendum on Scotland's independence was "on the table" and "highly likely".
    But how might an independent Scotland stay in the EU if the UK as a whole has chosen not to remain? Would Scotland have to re-apply for EU membership?
    Speaking to the BBC, former First Minister Alex Salmond said: "The logic would be that Scotland would have the option of remaining within Europe while the rest of the UK left Europe, so there would be no logic in saying, 'Let Scotland go out and then come back in again.'"
    Even if a second referendum were to be held before the UK concluded its exit negotiations with the EU, and the Scottish people were to vote in favour of independence, it isn't clear that Scotland could automatically remain. If part of an existing EU country became independent and had to determine its membership of the EU as an independent state, this would be an unprecedented situation.
    The existing EU Treaties contain no clause that sets out what would happen if this were to be the case.
    'No certainty'


    In 2012, the House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee sought a clarification about how Scottish independence might affect its EU membership from the then European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso. In his response, Barroso wrote:
    "Although there is no certainty, it appears an independent Scotland would not automatically become a member of the EU but would instead have to re-apply and complete a process of accession... A new independent state would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with respect to the EU and the Treaties would no longer apply on its territory."
    Mr Barroso added that an independent Scotland would be able to apply to become a member and the application would be treated in the usual way. This would mean that, if the other member countries accepted the application unanimously, an agreement between Scotland and the EU would be negotiated, the EU Treaties adjusted and, finally, ratified by all member states.
    But during the Scottish referendum campaign in 2014, it was unclear whether the EU would permit an independent Scotland to negotiate as a de facto EU member, which would place it on a fast track to accession, or whether the normal, and much lengthier, accession process would be applied. This shorter process would require member states to agree to the EU Treaties being amended to allow Scotland to join, via Article 48 of the Treaty on the European Union.
    Steve Peers, professor of law at the University of Essex says: "It's now much more plausible that other member states would agree to amend the Treaties to transfer the UK's membership of the UK to Scotland."
    The longer process would require a formal application via Article 49, the usual process by which prospective members can apply to join the EU.
    During this time, there was also some discussion on whether the EU would make it difficult for Scotland to join the EU so as to discourage independence movements in Spain and other countries from doing the same. However, the context for Scotland's EU membership has become much more complex with the UK's decision to leave the EU.
    Prof Peers also writes: "The political context of the issue would now be different: unlike in 2014, facilitating Scottish EU membership would not be now seen as creating a kind of incentive for a member state to split up, given that the UK is leaving the EU anyway."
    Whatever route Scotland might take to rejoin the EU, the EU stipulates that all new members are expected to adopt the euro, if they meet the necessary criteria. The same rules would apply to Scotland, unless it was able to negotiate a new opt-out.


    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36619907
  • SpectreNumberTwoSpectreNumberTwo
    Posts: 389
    From the text, well almost, "Due to the huge volume of EU rules and regulations each candidate country must adopt the position, drop it's pants & accept the EU man sausage up their derriere without the use of a petrolium based product" :D
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    SpectreNumberTwo wrote: »
    From the text, well almost, "Due to the huge volume of EU rules and regulations each candidate country must adopt the position, drop it's pants & accept the EU man sausage up their derriere without the use of a petrolium based product" :D

    Mate, I really wonder. This is what we already do right now, isn't it? And, sorry to say it again, there is not a single rule or guideline over the last 15, 20 or 30 years that doesn't bear the signature of Her Majesty's Government. None of what you bang on about was decided against the UK. I know that you have reason to be more than cross with things. But it would help us all a lot if we started calling out the real bad guys here. That's the governments you and I voted for. You probably more than me but I won't hold it against you, man.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    DoctorKaufmann wrote: »
    Just thinking about all Bond movies retitled in the wake of Brexit:

    1. Doctor Brexit
    2. From Brexit with Love
    3. Brexitfinger
    4. Thunderbrexit
    5. You'll only brexit twice
    6. On her Majesty's Brexit Service
    7. Brexits are forever
    8. Brexit and let brexit
    9. The Man with the Golden Brexit
    10. The Brexit who loved me
    11. Brexitraker
    12. For Your Brexit Only
    13. Brexitpussy
    14. A View to a Brexit
    15. The Lieving Brexits
    16. Licence to Brexit/Brexit to Kill
    17. GoldenBrexit
    18. Brexit never dies
    19. Brexit is not enough
    20. Brexit another day
    21. Brexit Royale
    22. Quantum of Brexit
    23. Brexitfall
    24. Brexictre

    Haha. I see what you did there.

    And who says the Germans don't have a sense of humour?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 17,809
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    DoctorKaufmann wrote: »
    Just thinking about all Bond movies retitled in the wake of Brexit:

    1. Doctor Brexit
    2. From Brexit with Love
    3. Brexitfinger
    4. Thunderbrexit
    5. You'll only brexit twice
    6. On her Majesty's Brexit Service
    7. Brexits are forever
    8. Brexit and let brexit
    9. The Man with the Golden Brexit
    10. The Brexit who loved me
    11. Brexitraker
    12. For Your Brexit Only
    13. Brexitpussy
    14. A View to a Brexit
    15. The Lieving Brexits
    16. Licence to Brexit/Brexit to Kill
    17. GoldenBrexit
    18. Brexit never dies
    19. Brexit is not enough
    20. Brexit another day
    21. Brexit Royale
    22. Quantum of Brexit
    23. Brexitfall
    24. Brexictre

    Haha. I see what you did there.

    And who says the Germans don't have a sense of humour?

    Yeah, edgy and clever stuff there, Herr Doktor. :D
  • SpectreNumberTwoSpectreNumberTwo
    edited July 2016 Posts: 389
    Agreed but until they introduce a box on the ballot paper, none of the above, if you believe in the right to vote we have to pick the one we think is the least offensive.

    'Freedom and order are not incompatible... truth is strength... free discussion is the very life of truth'. Thomas Huxley.

  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    SpectreNumberTwo wrote: »
    Agreed but until they introduce a box on the ballot paper, none of the above, if you believe in the right to vote we have to pick the one we think is the least offensive.

    'Freedom and order are not incompatible... truth is strength... free discussion is the very life of truth'. Thomas Huxley.

    QFT

  • SpectreNumberTwoSpectreNumberTwo
    Posts: 389
    @Campbell2 I applaud your conversation even if we choose to disagree on some issues, we can certainly agree on others, we may never be close compatriots but that does not mean we are enemies either, detente indead. ;)
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited July 2016 Posts: 17,809
    SpectreNumberTwo wrote: »
    Agreed but until they introduce a box on the ballot paper, none of the above, if you believe in the right to vote we have to pick the one we think is the least offensive.

    'Freedom and order are not incompatible... truth is strength... free discussion is the very life of truth'. Thomas Huxley.

    I always think that people who do that are terminally stupid and regardless of what they write on their ballot paper they've effectively just wasted their hard-won vote. Who is going to read their blunt message to the political establishment I wonder? Oh, a rather disgruntled election official, no doubt. How novel. Still, you can't fix stupid.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    This was on Have I got news for you.
    A voter tried to show what he thought of his local conservative MP during a recent
    election, by drawing a penis in the box beside his name. BUT...
    As he had kept the drawing within the box, it was deemed a valid vote ! :))
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited July 2016 Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    SpectreNumberTwo wrote: »
    Agreed but until they introduce a box on the ballot paper, none of the above, if you believe in the right to vote we have to pick the one we think is the least offensive.

    'Freedom and order are not incompatible... truth is strength... free discussion is the very life of truth'. Thomas Huxley.

    I always thing people who do that are terminally stupid and regardless of what they write on their ballot paper they've effectively just wasted their hard-won vote. Who is going to read their blunt message to the political establishment I wonder? Oh, a rather disgruntled election official, no doubt. How novel. Still, you can't fix stupid.

    No that's spooling the paper which I agree is pointless.

    What @SpectreNumberTwo was alluding to, I think, was the notion of having 'none of the above' actually on the ballot paper which is quite different and would send home the message 'we think you're all shit' when it romped home with a landslide.

    I think I would have voted for that the last 4 general elections in a row.

    Brexit was the slightly less objectionable option to voting remain and sending the message to Cameron and the EU 'Carry on' but I wasn't that happy to be forced into voting it.
  • SpectreNumberTwoSpectreNumberTwo
    edited July 2016 Posts: 389
    Thunderpussy wrote: »
    This was on Have I got news for you.
    A voter tried to show what he thought of his local conservative MP during a recent
    election, by drawing a penis in the box beside his name. BUT...
    As he had kept the drawing within the box, it was deemed a valid vote ! :))

    Watched that as well, priceless. =))
  • SpectreNumberTwoSpectreNumberTwo
    edited July 2016 Posts: 389
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    SpectreNumberTwo wrote: »
    Agreed but until they introduce a box on the ballot paper, none of the above, if you believe in the right to vote we have to pick the one we think is the least offensive.

    'Freedom and order are not incompatible... truth is strength... free discussion is the very life of truth'. Thomas Huxley.

    I always thing people who do that are terminally stupid and regardless of what they write on their ballot paper they've effectively just wasted their hard-won vote. Who is going to read their blunt message to the political establishment I wonder? Oh, a rather disgruntled election official, no doubt. How novel. Still, you can't fix stupid.

    No that's spooling the paper which I agree is pointless.

    What @SpectreNumberTwo was alluding to, I think, was the notion of having 'none of the above' actually on the ballot paper which is quite different and would send home the message 'we think you're all shit' when it romped home with a landslide.

    I think I would have voted for that the last 4 general elections in a row.

    Brexit was the slightly less objectionable option to voting remain and sending the message to Cameron and the EU 'Carry on' but I wasn't that happy to be forced into voting it.

    That's true, but I can also see @Dragonpol point taking the time to go to the polling station only to spoil your ballot paper is incredibly dickish.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I see old Nigel has joined the list of resignations.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    Thunderpussy wrote: »
    I see old Nigel has joined the list of resignations.

    Nigel Farage says his goal has been reached. But smart people know that now the most difficult job has to start: The real exit process. And for that he doesn't care. He doesn't care at all for the future of the UK people. And if you say "I want my life back", then you don't give a shit about other people's lifes. Go home and never come back you coward.
  • SpectreNumberTwoSpectreNumberTwo
    edited July 2016 Posts: 389
    I want Farage to disappear into the back ground as well but not for the all the same reasons as @Gustav_Graves, he's an ass who has nothing to offer the negotiations as all he does is rub the EU up the wrong way & would only hinder the process.
  • SanchairsSanchairs UK
    Posts: 140
    he's still getting 6k a month as an EU MP, and he said he to get away and wanted to have a life, what about the MP who lost her life over this absurd referendum?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Farage is not the man to handle any aspects of the negotiations. He would only be an offensive distraction. He is a man of principle, but that's not what's needed now. His battle has ostensibly been won. What's required at the moment are conciliatory figures to carefully navigate the morass that is the EU. To win the peace, so to speak.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    Sanchairs wrote: »
    he's still getting 6k a month as an EU MP, and he said he to get away and wanted to have a life, what about the MP who lost her life over this absurd referendum?

    And he will receive that until one year after his resignation as MEP. Sadly, we don't hear anything saying that this could be seen as stealing from the EU and EU citizens.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Hey all the politicians are on the gravy train :D Perhaps the
    EU defenders should turn their anger on the EU set up that pays them
    so much for so little. :)) still, Not the UK's problem any more.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 17,809
    SpectreNumberTwo wrote: »
    I want Farage to disappear into the back ground as well but not for the all the same reasons as @Gustav_Graves, he's an ass who has nothing to offer the negotiations as all he does is rub the EU up the wrong way & would only hinder the process.

    Very much agreed, @SpectreNumberTwo. Farage is indeed an ass. He promised spending on the NHS even though Ukip has only one MP in Westminster and lost their second one at the 2015 General Election. Farage promised things he could never deliver. Hopefully Ukip will now fade away and those on the right will continue to vote for the Conservatives and reject Ukip's false promises that they can never deliver upon. I'd wager that Farage did the LEAVE camp more harm than nay good he brought them. It was Johnson and Gove & Co. who really delivered the LEAVE win but that won't stop Farage from claiming that he was instrumental. He's never been shy of blowing him own trumpet.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    SpectreNumberTwo wrote: »
    I want Farage to disappear into the back ground as well but not for the all the same reasons as @Gustav_Graves, he's an ass who has nothing to offer the negotiations as all he does is rub the EU up the wrong way & would only hinder the process.

    Very much agreed, @SpectreNumberTwo. Farage is indeed an ass. He promised spending on the NHS even though Ukip has only one MP in Westminster and lost their second one at the 2015 General Election. Farage promised things he could never deliver. Hopefully Ukip will now fade away and those on the right will continue to vote for the Conservatives and reject Ukip's false promises that they can never deliver upon. I'd wager that Farage did the LEAVE camp more harm than nay good he brought them. It was Johnson and Gove & Co. who really delivered the LEAVE win but that won't stop Farage from claiming that he was instrumental. He's never been shy of blowing him own trumpet.

    You forget one ONE pivotal point here. And it seems that many in here suffer from selective memory loss. But regardless what I think of Nigel Farage now, it was the UKIP and Nigel Farage on front who firmly fueled a possible Brexit referendum. The very word 'Brexit' originated from him.

    And because of that, the Conservative Party got nervous, as the establishment party leadership didn't want the more anti-EU-minded, far-right wing walk over to the UKIP side. The result may be that the UKIP hasn't got any but one seat in the House Of Commons. And factually it may seem that the Conservative Party seems like a steady ship in which all noses point in the same direction.

    But we know that's bullocks. To understand the cowardness of Nigel Farage, and his first bit of leadership towards a referendum, one has to equally understand the ideological cowardness of the Tories. In my book you are either for or against the EU or the British cause. But Cameron is equally to blaim for this mess and the way he said 'yes' and then 'no' and then 'yes' and then 'no'. Cameron was naive enough that he could keep the UK into the EU after the February negotiations. But before that he sounded differently.

    In my opinion not only Nigel Farage, but the entire establishment right of center side of British politics showed a huge defeat. Not just Nigel Farage, but also Boris Johnson and David Cameron. It's a humiliation for British politics. And Michael Gove IMO clearly represents that.

    Let's hope Theresa May can bring back some common sense AND some more inspiring and ideological leadership that doesn't look like this:
    0029.gif
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