The June 2016 UK Referendum on EU Membership: [UPDATE] What kind of BREXIT do YOU want?

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    @Getafix, weakening the City of London's hold on Britain's economy is probably the best thing that can come out of this vote. It is a disproportionately large element of the economy (along with real estate) and a rebalancing is long overdue. The transition will be difficult no doubt, but I don't weep for less people in the Financial services industry in London.
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    bondjames wrote: »
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »

    I don't think it's inconceivable, even though it may seem so now. The moneyed interests will do what they have to in order to retain influence, and the US will 'meddle' behind the scenes, as it wants Britain to influence EU decision making. The Thursday vote is untenable for the 'regimes' who really control things.


    No way. That vote didn't just cut relations with the EU, it cut up the entire country. Great Britain doesn't exist in this way any more. And guys like our SpectreNumber2 would just as rightfully be out of their minds if they were ignored as the Remain side is now. There is no going back, from now on it's different directions for all of us.
    Yes, unless there are reforms at the EU level. There are elections in France and Germany next year, and I'm quite certain the EU is going to play a huge role in such elections. If they have any brains, they should get moving quickly to do some fundamental reforms over there, otherwise there could be further shockwaves next year.

    Fix the immigration thing for one, and I can see big changes to the EU's image.

    Washington will be working behind the scenes in overdrive - I'm sure of it. There is too much at stake here, and unfortunately, I believe the people's vote may be sidelined, but in a creative fashion.


    I repeat this here, it's my firm belief we went into this situation not because of the EU but because of our lack to properly engage in it. We've been rejected two times by the French before we finally joined and then it was only halfheartedly. The two big problems we perceive now are the Euro and the free labour. But in the one we're not even in and from the other we don't even get most. If Britain had joined the Euro it would have prevented a lot of that currency's problems, simply by not agreeing on all the weaker states joining up. And if Britain had joined the Schengen treaty it would not have turned a blind eye on the EU massive overextension. But since we were content enough to remain splendidly isolated we didn't think it was necessary to work much on the shape of the EU. And I think that's not so far from what happened in its other countries. As long as everything worked people were just fine with it.
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 11,119
    bondjames wrote: »
    @Getafix, weakening the City of London's hold on Britain's economy is probably the best thing that can come out of this vote. It is a disproportionately large element of the economy (along with real estate) and a rebalancing is long overdue. The transition will be difficult no doubt, but I don't weep for less people in the Financial services industry in London.

    It's not only that. It's also the huge car manufacturing industry (Vauxhall, Nissan), airline companies (EasyJet, Ryanair, British Airways). But also insurance companies, mortage institutions and pension funds....who are closely linked to the stock markets.

    You might call it a necessary correction, but it is also a dangerous correction that could trigger the recession ghost more fiercefully as compared to 2008. And with so many dangerous corections, in the end the working class people are the victims.

    If a PM or president would utter your words, he or she would be fired.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    As long as everything worked people were just fine with it.
    Agreed, and this is the crux of it. Expediency rather than real leadership. That's why I think they'll find an expedient solution again. I don't see leadership anywhere anymore.

    Ultimately, the biggest criminal in all of this is Washington, & financial deregulation which occurred over many decades and which ultimately led to the financial crisis in 2008, which we are all still living with the effects of today globally. That and its military interventions in the Middle East, which lost it credibility everywhere. This is what put the stress on the system. Shockingly, all these levers have actually gotten worse since then, because they added fuel to the fire in order to contain it, thereby postponing the ultimate day of reckoning ?!

    If you'll recall, the Euro was actually strengthening prior to that 2008 debacle (there's even a comment about it by Greene in QoS). I remember an Economist article proudly boasting about the common currency just before the crisis.

    Sadly, this system was never designed to accommodate the chaos and stresses we face today (whether it be immigration, financial market volatility or massive income disparities).
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Guys, this may be news to you but We are already in a recession :))
    God help us if you think these are the good times. :D
  • @Campbell2 not a soldier, navy mate a Royal Marine 1st, SBS later, then back to marines.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I for one thank you for your service to this wonderful country, @SpectreNumberTwo =D>
    and keeping us safe.
  • Posts: 4,602
    There is a supreme irony that the inners were portrayed as the tolerant ones and the outers as the closed minded ones. Now who are the ones who are being intolerant of a decision that they dont agree with.?
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    @Campbell2 not a soldier, navy mate a Royal Marine 1st, SBS later, then back to marines.

    So that's why you salute with your palm turned out!

    Ahoy then, sailor.

  • I don't now about keeping you safe, if you'd ever been out on the town with the marines you'd think twice about that, naked bar anyone..... ;)
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    =)) I can't believe that. I thought it would be a cup of Coco and off to bed.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    @Getafix, weakening the City of London's hold on Britain's economy is probably the best thing that can come out of this vote. It is a disproportionately large element of the economy (along with real estate) and a rebalancing is long overdue. The transition will be difficult no doubt, but I don't weep for less people in the Financial services industry in London.

    It's not only that. It's also the huge car manufacturing industry (Vauxhall, Nissan), airline companies (EasyJet, Ryanair, British Airways). But also insurance companies, mortage institutions and pension funds....who are closely linked to the stock markets.

    You might call it a necessary correction, but it is also a dangerous correction that could trigger the recession ghost more fiercefully as compared to 2008. And with so many dangerous corections, in the end the working class people are the victims.

    If a PM or president would utter your words, he or she would be fired.
    He's been fired (for all intents and purposes) anyway. Without uttering it.

    I'm fully aware of all the interconnections between industries and finance. That doesn't excuse the fact that the financial industry in London has become an excessively large element of the UK economy and GDP, and an unsustainable one. Just as 'real estate' and all its associated components has also become an unsustainable component of GDP. The definition of 'overexposure' and 'excess risk'.

    This is ripe for a correction either way. Only a matter of time. Letting things get further out of balance and just turning a blind eye to it and lying with overall macro statistics (rather than looking at internal 'mix' statistics, whether it be income distributions, regional distributions or GDP mix) wasn't going to work forever.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Loving the way the onus is now on those who voted Remain to now sort out this sh*t storm.

    It's like the Leavers have done the hard work, 'set us free' and now expect everyone else to sort out the utter mess.

    Any ideas of ways forward? One practical suggestion for how the consequences of your vote are not going to leave us screwed for decades to come?



  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    What paper was that in ? :D
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    Getafix wrote: »
    Loving the way the onus is now on those who voted Remain to now sort out this sh*t storm.

    It's like the Leavers have done the hard work, 'set us free' and now expect everyone else to sort out the utter mess.

    Any ideas of ways forward? One practical suggestion for how the consequences of your vote are not going to leave us screwed for decades to come?

    It is as I said, the country we knew isn't any longer. And we don't know yet what will become of its parts. Whichever way we turn as a whole, half of the country will rightfully feel cheated and ignored. This can't be the solution. Only way is to try and break up and hope all parts get to see a brighter future. This will not make everybody happy. But in the end it's the only decent way to act this out one way or the other.
  • SuperintendentSuperintendent A separate pool. For sharks, no less.
    Posts: 871
    There's one thing that's very telling. It's been three days, and none of the EU officials has resigned. EU lost one of the largest economies and most important countries, and yet Juncker, Tusk, Schulz and others don't see this as their fault at all. It shows how essentially undemocratic EU is, and their leaders don't hold themselves accountable and don't answer to anyone.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    There's one thing that's very telling. It's been three days, and none of the EU officials has resigned. EU lost one of the largest economies and most important countries, and yet Juncker, Tusk, Schulz and others don't see this as their fault at all. It shows how essentially undemocratic EU is, and their leaders don't hold themselves accountable and don't answer to anyone.
    Agreed. As I said earlier, one of these three will have to fall on their sword before France and Germany go to the polls next year. It's imperative imho.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    :)) True, very telling.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    bondjames wrote: »
    @Getafix, weakening the City of London's hold on Britain's economy is probably the best thing that can come out of this vote. It is a disproportionately large element of the economy (along with real estate) and a rebalancing is long overdue. The transition will be difficult no doubt, but I don't weep for less people in the Financial services industry in London.

    It's not only that. It's also the huge car manufacturing industry (Vauxhall, Nissan), airline companies (EasyJet, Ryanair, British Airways). But also insurance companies, mortage institutions and pension funds....who are closely linked to the stock markets.

    You might call it a necessary correction, but it is also a dangerous correction that could trigger the recession ghost more fiercefully as compared to 2008. And with so many dangerous corections, in the end the working class people are the victims.

    If a PM or president would utter your words, he or she would be fired.

    Curious how it's always the feeble UK car industry that suffers in a draconian trade war between us and the EU but the Germans carry on raking in multi billions just fine by losing access to their biggest customer in Europe.

    BMW, VW, Mercedes and Audi simply won't stand for Brussels imposing some brutal trade tariffs that kill one of their biggest markets. And when it comes to who has the biggest voice in Brussels I would say there's probably only Germany, France and maybe Italy & Netherlands who have more sway than the above block of companies.

    Certainly if Finland and Lithuania say Britain must be punished but Beemer and Merc say no there's only one winner.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    @Getafix, weakening the City of London's hold on Britain's economy is probably the best thing that can come out of this vote. It is a disproportionately large element of the economy (along with real estate) and a rebalancing is long overdue. The transition will be difficult no doubt, but I don't weep for less people in the Financial services industry in London.

    It's not only that. It's also the huge car manufacturing industry (Vauxhall, Nissan), airline companies (EasyJet, Ryanair, British Airways). But also insurance companies, mortage institutions and pension funds....who are closely linked to the stock markets.

    You might call it a necessary correction, but it is also a dangerous correction that could trigger the recession ghost more fiercefully as compared to 2008. And with so many dangerous corections, in the end the working class people are the victims.

    If a PM or president would utter your words, he or she would be fired.

    Curious how it's always the feeble UK car industry that suffers in a draconian trade war between us and the EU but the Germans carry on raking in multi billions just fine by losing access to their biggest customer in Europe.

    BMW, VW, Mercedes and Audi simply won't stand for Brussels imposing some brutal trade tariffs that kill one of their biggest markets. And when it comes to who has the biggest voice in Brussels I would say there's probably only Germany, France and maybe Italy & Netherlands who have more sway than the above block of companies.

    Certainly if Finland and Lithuania say Britain must be punished but Beemer and Merc say no there's only one winner.
    Indeed, which is probably why Merkel is not as keen to ask Britain to get a move on, unlike her foreign minister & the Eurocrats. Must have received a call from Dieter Zetsche (head of Daimler).
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    And if Scotland uses their veto right?
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    bondjames wrote: »
    There's one thing that's very telling. It's been three days, and none of the EU officials has resigned. EU lost one of the largest economies and most important countries, and yet Juncker, Tusk, Schulz and others don't see this as their fault at all. It shows how essentially undemocratic EU is, and their leaders don't hold themselves accountable and don't answer to anyone.
    Agreed. As I said earlier, one of these three will have to fall on their sword before France and Germany go to the polls next year. It's imperative imho.


    But why do you think so? This is not their problem, it's ours. The EU has its problems, sure. But obliging the UK isn't one of the bigger ones. I've said this all along, the EU is not going to crumble because of the UK. Everybody who thought so didn't pay close enough attention. Yes, they are shaken. Maybe, hopefully, it leads to reform. But they can't be expected to resign because of our decisions.

    Just imagine things were the other way around, France would have decided to quit, against all our hopes and wishes. The core group of Germany, Belgium, Netherlands and the heads of Commission and European Parliament would meet in London now and debate how to deal with it. None of them would resign, why ever? Nor would there be much concern about Hollande stepping down or Le Pen taking over. None of that would be our business.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    There's one thing that's very telling. It's been three days, and none of the EU officials has resigned. EU lost one of the largest economies and most important countries, and yet Juncker, Tusk, Schulz and others don't see this as their fault at all. It shows how essentially undemocratic EU is, and their leaders don't hold themselves accountable and don't answer to anyone.
    Agreed. As I said earlier, one of these three will have to fall on their sword before France and Germany go to the polls next year. It's imperative imho.


    But why do you think so? This is not their problem, it's ours. The EU has its problems, sure. But obliging the UK isn't one of the bigger ones. I've said this all along, the EU is not going to crumble because of the UK. Everybody who thought so didn't pay close enough attention. Yes, they are shaken. Maybe, hopefully, it leads to reform. But they can't be expected to resign because of our decisions.

    Just imagine things were the other way around, France would have decided to quit, against all our hopes and wishes. The core group of Germany, Belgium, Netherlands and the heads of Commission and European Parliament would meet in London now and debate how to deal with it. None of them would resign, why ever? Nor would there be much concern about Hollande stepping down or Le Pen taking over. None of that would be our business.
    I'm suggesting it just for 'optics' in advance of upcoming French and German elections, not necessarily because of the Brexit. The other shoe is about to drop. There has to be the 'perception' at least that the EU is trying to reform, and a head must roll (not just Cameron's) imho.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    David Cameron makes some of you look reasonable with his remarks that Putin and ISIS (as if they were the best of buddies) are rejoicing now.
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    @Getafix, weakening the City of London's hold on Britain's economy is probably the best thing that can come out of this vote. It is a disproportionately large element of the economy (along with real estate) and a rebalancing is long overdue. The transition will be difficult no doubt, but I don't weep for less people in the Financial services industry in London.

    I agree with the diagnosis but fear the treatment prescribed of bleading with leaches may leave the patient rather worse off than you are expecting.

    There are many underlying structural challenges facing the British economy and leaving the EU does absolutely nothing to address them.

    Past experience shows that recessions tend to hit manufacturing hardest, leaving the economy even more reliant on finance and property asset bubbles than it was before.

    We may get a rebalancing but the chances are it will be further towards even more reliance on a (now struggling) finance sector.

    Btw, finance employs millions of people across the UK - not just London. It's the sole industry globally in which you might describe the UK as the preeminent player.

    I appreciate your attempts to find the positive upsides but right now there aren't any
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    @Getafix, weakening the City of London's hold on Britain's economy is probably the best thing that can come out of this vote. It is a disproportionately large element of the economy (along with real estate) and a rebalancing is long overdue. The transition will be difficult no doubt, but I don't weep for less people in the Financial services industry in London.

    I agree with the diagnosis but fear the treatment prescribed of bleading with leaches may leave the patient rather worse off than you are expecting.

    There are many underlying structural challenges facing the British economy and leaving the EU does absolutely nothing to address them.

    Past experience shows that recessions tend to hit manufacturing hardest, leaving the economy even more reliant on finance and property asset bubbles than it was before.

    We may get a rebalancing but the chances are it will be further towards even more reliance on a (now struggling) finance sector.

    Btw, finance employees millions of people across the UK - not just London.
    I agree with your comments, but they would have done absolutely nothing about it without Brexit.

    Now they are forced to reckon with the problem. This is what inevitably happens when one ignores a situation for too long. The solution is forced on one.

    I sincerely hope it's not 'more reliance' on the finance sector. Britain is better than that, and the Brexit vote was a shout to recognize that. Not everyone wants to or can work in the finance sector.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I was surprised Old Dave was on such good terms with Putin and ISIS. Perhaps his
    walking away from the country and washing his hands, might also please Putin and
    ISIS. So basically either way Putin and ISIS were going to be happy. :))
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Yeah. Putin congratulates ISIS on the Brexit before continuing to wipe them out.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Sadly Putin is not attacking ISIS. ;)
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    And if Scotland uses their veto right?

    This is not an option when it means to ignore the other half of the vote, the winners even. This way lies madness. As before, the Leavers can't be ignored, the Remainers can't.

    There is talk of a third way now, Boris or whoever they see fit to do it going to Brussels to talk about exit, then coming back with some treaty and making this the basis for a second referendum. The peeps could then reject it and just stay in. But this smacks even more of backhanded double faced chicanery.

    And all the while the time is running and each day less is invested and trust is lost.

    No, the only option now is moving ahead with article 50 and fast talks with all concerned parties.
This discussion has been closed.