What next for Madeleine Swann

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  • edited February 2016 Posts: 1,386
    To be perfectly honest, Shatterhand going through all the trouble he does in the novel just to
    watch people try to kill themselves always seemed a bit of a stretch to me
    . That's why I think it needs changed. I mean, how close do we want to stick to a novel that has James Bond becoming Japanese? I'm not sure the character needs an alias either at this point.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    josiah wrote: »
    To be perfectly honest, Shatterhand going through all the trouble he does in the novel just to
    watch people try to kill themselves always seemed a bit of a stretch to me
    . That's why I think it needs changed. I mean, how close do we want to stick to a novel that has James Bond becoming Japanese? I'm not sure the character needs an alias either, given the current circumstances.

    The thing is we are all saying that we want to see an adaptation of YOLT but that whole story hinges on Bond finding out that the guy who killed his missus is still alive.

    But here we don't have that. Question is can we elevate Madeline to being on a par with Vesper and Tracy (because she's certainly not at the moment), kill her off and then have Bond take revenge all in one film?

    We are stuck with Madeline and if we don't have Blofeld kill her off (which is of course what everyone expects) then what do we do with her?

    Or do we just ignore her and just say they broke up but then where is the dramatic conflict between Bond and Blofeld that climaxes in the castle?

    Also after finally bringing Blofeld back to kill him off after two films seems a bit quick. I would have a SPECTRE number two like Largo running the show (or better still Irma Bunt) in B25. Make it a classic Bond-trying-to-stop-a-villain's-evil-scheme plot but have Blofeld kept to a minimum and only escaping in the third act. During the film Bond and Madeline develop their relationship (think this makes more sense than having to build up a Bond girl from scratch) and I guess you have to let them get married, killing her off in the final scene or in the PTS of B26 which is YOLT.

    Trouble with that is for it to work you'd need Dan to sign for B26 which I can't really see happening.

    The trouble with Blofeld is that if you don't have the murdering Tracy angle he's just a bog standard Stromberg or Drax. The only other way round this would have been to really emphasise that it was his doing that drove Vesper to her death but it's too late for that now. Craig's Bond seems satisfied with catching Yusef rather than the bloke who ordered it all. When Blofeld brings up Vesper there's virtually no reaction from Bond at all.

    I suppose we could delve more into Bond's relationship with Hannes and that could be the revenge. Instead of blood and thunder at the climax we could have a final quiet scene between the two of them where Bond confronts him about Hannes like he does Major Dexter Smythe. But do any of us really want to revisit the step brother angle?

    It's a right mess.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,422
    Yes, they have painted themselves into a corner.

    @TheWizardOfIce
    The trouble with Blofeld is that if you don't have the murdering Tracy angle he's just a bog standard Stromberg or Drax. The only other way round this would have been to really emphasise that it was his doing that drove Vesper to her death but it's too late for that now.

    A possible scenario - have Blofeld send Bond footage of him interrogating, even torturing Vesper. This disrupts Bond and Swann's idyllic life, and Bond seeks out Blofeld. Swann isn't too happy at playing second fiddle to a ghost, thus she leaves Bond. Chuck in Franz murdering Hannes and you've got plenty of motivation for Bond, to go back in the secret service, and extract his revenge.
  • edited February 2016 Posts: 14,865
    royale65 wrote: »
    Yes, they have painted themselves into a corner.

    @TheWizardOfIce
    The trouble with Blofeld is that if you don't have the murdering Tracy angle he's just a bog standard Stromberg or Drax. The only other way round this would have been to really emphasise that it was his doing that drove Vesper to her death but it's too late for that now.

    A possible scenario - have Blofeld send Bond footage of him interrogating, even torturing Vesper. This disrupts Bond and Swann's idyllic life, and Bond seeks out Blofeld. Swann isn't too happy at playing second fiddle to a ghost, thus she leaves Bond. Chuck in Franz murdering Hannes and you've got plenty of motivation for Bond, to go back in the secret service, and extract his revenge.

    Interesting ideas here. And let's not forget that because of Bond's nature, his relationship with Madeleine is already on shaky grounds. It was being shaky even in the last act of SP. Making her leave would make it not only original, but create a true sense of loss. Like Racine said (I think), to create a tragedy you don't need someone to die.

    I am not keen on having Madeleine die and Bond going for revenge... again. I am all for using elements from the Tiffany Case and Gala Brand relationships from the novels for Madeleine. As for the revenge angle, since Bond has been thwarting Blofeld's plans for a while, why not have ESB go for a revenge against him? That is all it needs to keep the nemesis alive.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    royale65 wrote: »
    Yes, they have painted themselves into a corner.

    @TheWizardOfIce
    The trouble with Blofeld is that if you don't have the murdering Tracy angle he's just a bog standard Stromberg or Drax. The only other way round this would have been to really emphasise that it was his doing that drove Vesper to her death but it's too late for that now.

    A possible scenario - have Blofeld send Bond footage of him interrogating, even torturing Vesper. This disrupts Bond and Swann's idyllic life, and Bond seeks out Blofeld. Swann isn't too happy at playing second fiddle to a ghost, thus she leaves Bond. Chuck in Franz murdering Hannes and you've got plenty of motivation for Bond, to go back in the secret service, and extract his revenge.

    Interesting ideas here.

    I am not keen on having Madeleine die and Bond going for revenge... again. I am all for using elements from the Tiffany Case and Gala Brand relationships from the novels for Madeleine. As for the revenge angle, since Bond has been thwarting Blofeld's plans for a while, why not have ESB go for a revenge against him? That is all it needs to keep the nemesis alive.

    Well they've already royally f**ked up the Gala Brand ending in that crappy scene near the end of SP. Actually I think that might be my least favourite moment of the film - worse even than stepbrother garbage.

    One of Fleming's best endings and one which really gets at the core of Bond's character just casually tossed away in order to set up a naff damsel in distress finale.
  • Posts: 14,865
    How is the SP ending in any way reminiscent of the MR ending? And how have they thus f*ck*d it up? Regardless of your dislike of the scene it does not impair on using the source material. Swann can leave Bond forces number of reasons.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited February 2016 Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    How is the SP ending in any way reminiscent of the MR ending? And how have they thus f*ck*d it up? Regardless of your dislike of the scene it does not impair on using the source material. Swann can leave Bond forces number of reasons.

    Well she's already left him once so are we going to have her walk away and leave him again?
  • Posts: 14,865
    Ludovico wrote: »
    How is the SP ending in any way reminiscent of the MR ending? And how have they thus f*ck*d it up? Regardless of your dislike of the scene it does not impair on using the source material. Swann can leave Bond forces number of reasons.

    Well she's already left him once so are we going to have her walk away and leave him again?

    Why not? Since she already walked away once because this world was not for her.
  • Posts: 14,865
    Too many have been killed off. They stopped the trend with Lucia Sciarra, why start it again in Bond 25? especially since Madeleine leaving would be more satisfying dramatically and allow them to use unused Fleming material.

  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    How is the SP ending in any way reminiscent of the MR ending? And how have they thus f*ck*d it up? Regardless of your dislike of the scene it does not impair on using the source material. Swann can leave Bond forces number of reasons.

    Well she's already left him once so are we going to have her walk away and leave him again?

    Why not? Since she already walked away once because this world was not for her.

    I'm sorry but that's bollocks.

    So what? You'd have her drive off into the sunset at the end of SP because Blofeld's in the can so Bond has left that life but then when he escapes in B25 and Bond goes back to the life she pulls the plug properly this time? Does Blofeld catch her again and Bond have to rescue her this time too?

    Its clunky and poor even by P&W's standards.

    If we don't want her to die then the best way to get rid of her is to have Basil Exposition err I mean Tanner mention to MP that Madeline left him and just forget about her.
  • edited February 2016 Posts: 4,602
    Her future will be discussed so much within forums like these, I cant see the writers coming up with anything surprising and none of the ideas I have seen sound credible, original or exciting. One thing is certain, she will either live or die.
  • Posts: 92
    Let her disappear before Bond 25 like so many other ladies have.
    Perhaps just give some kind of mention if absolutely necessary.
    Easy solved!
  • Posts: 14,865
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    How is the SP ending in any way reminiscent of the MR ending? And how have they thus f*ck*d it up? Regardless of your dislike of the scene it does not impair on using the source material. Swann can leave Bond forces number of reasons.

    Well she's already left him once so are we going to have her walk away and leave him again?

    Why not? Since she already walked away once because this world was not for her.

    I'm sorry but that's bollocks.

    So what? You'd have her drive off into the sunset at the end of SP because Blofeld's in the can so Bond has left that life but then when he escapes in B25 and Bond goes back to the life she pulls the plug properly this time? Does Blofeld catch her again and Bond have to rescue her this time too?

    Its clunky and poor even by P&W's standards.

    If we don't want her to die then the best way to get rid of her is to have Basil Exposition err I mean Tanner mention to MP that Madeline left him and just forget about her.

    She can easily decide if/when Blofeld escapes that she does not want to live this anymore. That being with Bond makes her a target. When she got back with Bond at the end of SP it was because she thought the whole ordeal was over. The menace would be more than enough for her to end it. Blofeld does not even need to make a single move towards her.

    Or we can go for something more prosaic (which can still be emotionally charged): Bond can cheat on her and she does not take it. Or they just discover that living together simply doesn't work. Madeleine does not even need to show up again: they just need to take the explanation Bond gives to M in FRWL regarding the end of his relationship with Tiffany Case.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    How is the SP ending in any way reminiscent of the MR ending? And how have they thus f*ck*d it up? Regardless of your dislike of the scene it does not impair on using the source material. Swann can leave Bond forces number of reasons.

    Well she's already left him once so are we going to have her walk away and leave him again?

    Why not? Since she already walked away once because this world was not for her.

    I'm sorry but that's bollocks.

    So what? You'd have her drive off into the sunset at the end of SP because Blofeld's in the can so Bond has left that life but then when he escapes in B25 and Bond goes back to the life she pulls the plug properly this time? Does Blofeld catch her again and Bond have to rescue her this time too?

    Its clunky and poor even by P&W's standards.

    If we don't want her to die then the best way to get rid of her is to have Basil Exposition err I mean Tanner mention to MP that Madeline left him and just forget about her.

    She can easily decide if/when Blofeld escapes that she does not want to live this anymore. That being with Bond makes her a target. When she got back with Bond at the end of SP it was because she thought the whole ordeal was over. The menace would be more than enough for her to end it. Blofeld does not even need to make a single move towards her.

    Or we can go for something more prosaic (which can still be emotionally charged): Bond can cheat on her and she does not take it. Or they just discover that living together simply doesn't work. Madeleine does not even need to show up again: they just need to take the explanation Bond gives to M in FRWL regarding the end of his relationship with Tiffany Case.

    Appalling.

    The very reason I don't watch soap operas is because I don't want to watch trite melodrama such as in all the notions you present above.
  • edited February 2016 Posts: 14,865
    Did Fleming write soap opera stuff when he wrote the ending of Moonraker? How about the beginning of From Russia with Love? If the Bond girl meets someone else, which happened at least twice in the novels, is that soap opera? And why would Bond cheating be de facto soap opera stuff. Given his rather polygamous nature and his penchant for married women, he is certainly one to be susceptible to be unfaithful... which can of course lead to break ups. What makes something melodramatic or soap operatic is the treatment of it, not the action itself.

    Or you can dismiss classic love triangles as the Lancelot-Gueneveer-king Arthur one as trite soap opera material.
  • I think Madeleine will get killed by Blofeld,who will escape prison.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Did Fleming write soap opera stuff when he wrote the ending of Moonraker? How about the beginning of From Russia with Love? If the Bond girl meets someone else, which happened at least twice in the novels, is that soap opera? And why would Bond cheating be de facto soap opera stuff. Given his rather polygamous nature and his penchant for married women, he is certainly one to be susceptible to be unfaithful... which can of course lead to break ups. What makes something melodramatic or soap operatic is the treatment of it, not the action itself.

    Or you can dismiss classic love triangles as the Lancelot-Gueneveer-king Arthur one as trite soap opera material.

    Are you really suggesting any of these three options is the best way out?

    1. Madeline catches Bond on the job: Do we really think a scene where Madeline comes in and catches Bond with his pants down like something out of a Carry On film is viable? Then what? Have her cutting the sleeves off all his shirts and launching all his stuff out of the window? Apart from anything else Bond would come across as something of a dick. Bond is escapism and having him go through the same mundane tribulations as the rest of us is not something I believe an audience would want to see. What next? We follow Bond to the bank because to arrange an extension on his overdraft or to Kwik Fit because the DB5 is due it's MOT?

    2. Madeline walks away: After having already been done once I cant see how this would come across as anything but very silly. 'Yeah I know I said that this life isn't for me last time but then ended up driving off with you but I really mean it this time. Unless I get caught again and you rescue me in case which I suppose you'll have earned a few more shags but after that I'm definitely going.'

    3. Madeline and Bond split up: The best of some pretty dire options. Not sure how it could be handled well. Do you have Lea return for a tearful farewell? But that turns it into number 2 above. Or do you just have a few lines saying it didn't work out? Bond just saying to Tanner 'I just wasn't that into her' and then business as usual?

    If they're not going to kill her off then it's probably best to ignore her existence entirely (well they almost did that with Quantum) but by tying everything together (however poorly) they have made continuity the key thing in the Craig era so I think the audience deserves to know what happened to her.

    EON were the ones who put continuity on the map. They've made their bed now they have to lie in it even if it is as unappealing as Tracy Emin's.

    PS - Just had a flash of inspiration. How about Madeline dies in childbirth with Bond's baby? That way we get rid of her without the cliche of having the villain kill her but Blofeld can kidnap the baby or something to make it personal which is what every film has to be these days apparently. Personally I'd rather see Idris Elba as Bond than go down this route but at least its orginal and after the step brother bullshit I don't consider anything impossible anymore.
  • How about this: Madeleine realises she doesn't love Bond after all (her 'I love you' doesn't seem right) and they agree that it's best that they split. Not in an angsty way.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    edited February 2016 Posts: 10,588
    I'd like to see a situation in which Bond realizes he was just using Madeleine as a way out, and have Madeleine leave him after eventually coming to that conclusion all within the first 30 minutes of the film. Bare in mind that I did not dislike the character, but this is the way I see things going down.
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    They've made their bed now they have to lie in it even if it is as unappealing as Tracy Emin's.

    Personally I would have gone with Andrea Dworkin, but I see your point.
  • Okay, but why does everyone think Madeleine Swan has to die? Jeez... You guys are sick, just kidding.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,588
    Birdleson wrote: »
    She seemed dead for most of the picture.

    Give it a rest.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,588
    Yeah, who was I kidding.
  • Posts: 14,865
    @TheWizardofIce-You are building a strawman. I never made any specific claims about how to develop these potential tropes, let alone the tone they should use. I said they could be used. As for Bond appearing like something of a dick if he cheats on Madeleine, I don't see the problem in this particular instance: he was never pictured as an exemplary boyfriend or partner material. We know from both the CR movie and the novels (in this aspect both characters are consistent with one another) that he goes for married women. Morally reprehensible? Certainly. But in character. Adultery can be escapist (sorry for the bad pun), like any trope in fiction. It all depends how it is done. I am not saying it would be done properly, or even that it is the best idea. I am just saying it is an idea and not intrinsically a bad one.

    For Madeleine walking away, she can do this because she discovers that Bond is still married to the job/wants to be a spy, while she assumed otherwise at the end of SP. That would be enough to convince her to break things up. When they got back together at the end of SP, it was after a terrible ordeal and after she thought he was done with being a 00. If this change, the relationship changed.

    As for Madeleine walking away, which is not even different from the second one, we have a precedent in the novels with Tiffany Case. They could even use the conversation from the beginning of FRWL between M and Bond. So far it is the scenario I like the most, partially because Fleming already showed us how it is done, but also because it would bring in the movies one aspect that was never really explored. But more importantly, because it is all too plausible. Going through a terrible ordeal might make two people get closer and think they are meant for each other, but a mundane life together can easily tear them apart.



  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    Have the rumours of the current Bond girl returning in the next film happened with every recent release??!!!
  • edited February 2016 Posts: 14,865
    w2bond wrote: »
    Have the rumours of the current Bond girl returning in the next film happened with every recent release??!!!

    It would have been difficult in the Craig era. But before, yes, it's a recurring rumor.

    And for the record, I find it unlikely that they will have Madeleine return, if only because it never truly happened since Sylvia Trench. My bet is that she will be mentioned, but nothing more.
  • edited February 2016 Posts: 1,386
    This can just be part of his hideout and a sideline to his main scheme which needs to be a lot more grandiose and dastardly than just taking over surveillance of the worlds security services.
    Blofeld and his cronies seeking to become the one organization every government in the world looks to for their intel
    in SPECTRE seems pretty sinister to me.
  • dominicgreenedominicgreene The Eternal QOS Defender
    Posts: 1,756
    I agree with @Birdleson . The rest of the ideas on the last few pages however...

    giphy.gif

  • gumboltgumbolt Now with in-office photocopier
    Posts: 153
    Will nobody back me on my "make her a villain" plotline? Look at the events of Spectre like this - her father dies because of Blofeld. She is not in hiding in Austria, she is just dormant. She wants to avenge her father by killing or deposing Blofeld - returning Spectre to the organisation her father used to be loyal to. So she uses Bond to get to Blofeld. When she thinks ESB is blown up in Africa, she leaves Bond in London at the first opportunity. Then she gets kidnapped and has to pretend to be in love with him again. Then... in B25, she fakes her own death following Blofeld's inevitable escape, tricking Bond into revenge against ESB. Meantime, she starts to undermine ESB by plotting against him in Spectre itself, coming up with new schemes and trying to depose him one way or the other. She is not "No 2" but a rival. Bond finally discovers her alive but Blofeld kills her. Blofeld's main plot - some awful terror act in the UK as payback - is foiled by Bond. This movie could be as much about Spectre as it is Bond. It would be really cool.
    Will nobody agree with me?!
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,334
    I could get behind that. It's been forever since we've had a proper bad Bond girl.
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