Are we all happy now that dust has settled? -Spectre Spoilers

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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    The foster brother thing is a small part of the movie for me, so what if I wouldn't have gone that route my own self?
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    Posts: 2,138
    RC7 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    The script for Dalton's 3rd film in 1991 had robots in it, so it seems that no matter how dark/gritty a Bond tenure starts, EON will always go towards MR/YOLT as the tenure progresses. Bond movies keep switching between dark and OTT, so I don't see how after 53 years and 24 movies people can still be shocked by the tone shifts.

    I love the tonal shifts.

    For me what's important is whether it's a good or bad movie.

    I love YOLT, and secretly quite enjoy MR, but can't stand DAD.

    So I don't really care if the film is dark, light, OTT or 'serious' - I just want it to do whatever it's doing really well.

    Good comment, my problem is that there was a mass growing global audience who loved CR, though QOS was not bad, but not great, Thought skyfall was just a great spy thriller, who have seen Spectre and are now of the mind set, its back to the nonsense and don't bother buying a ticket the next time around.

    Are you actually speaking on behalf of the global audience?

    Not at all, I am expressing a concern, there is no doubt after Brosnan the franchise has to get their choice of Bond and direction right as it had lost its way. There is no doubt that Dan's first 3 films recaptured a global audience and Bond has never been so successful. To then reinvent Bond for Spectre as Sam Mendes said "Bond is rebooted at the end of Spectre" is a massive risk. Because the global audience bought in to a more serious, believable gritty Bond.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited November 2015 Posts: 15,686
    The last 2 Brosnan films outgrossed their immediate predecessor (TWINE/TND and DAD/TWINE), so who know what will happen next, maybe an even more OTT Bond with Craig will outgross SP and reach 1 billion $.
  • RC7RC7
    edited November 2015 Posts: 10,512
    Getafix wrote: »
    Well, historically continuity has never been a big concern for the Bond films. I'm of the view that you could just ditch the current timeline and start again and frankly who would care, as long as the next film was good?

    Precisely. People are acting like the whole legacy is crumbling around us. The DC era is its own entity and has taken liberties which do not impact on the original source, they simply play with it. There is nothing to say they won't revert back to the Fleming Blofeld in the future, it's inevitable.
    chrisisall wrote: »
    The foster brother thing is a small part of the movie for me, so what if I wouldn't have gone that route my own self?

    People are blowing it way out of proportion to satisfy a negative narrative. The whole thing is ambiguous. You can put a positive or negative spin on it. I'd rather positive.
    Not at all, I am expressing a concern, there is no doubt after Brosnan the franchise has to get their choice of Bond and direction right as it had lost its way. There is no doubt that Dan's first 3 films recaptured a global audience and Bond has never been so successful. To then reinvent Bond for Spectre as Sam Mendes said "Bond is rebooted at the end of Spectre" is a massive risk. Because the global audience bought in to a more serious, believable gritty Bond.

    I don't believe it's a revolution, though. It's an evolution across four films. The next will no doubt be different again, dependent on circumstances. I refuse to believe the film would have done any better/worse by having DC mope around.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 11,425
    I'd like them to just put out more internally coherent films where you don't have to cross reference so much.

    As so many have said ready, just an old fashioned mission.

    Is John Glen still alive? Bring him back, I say!
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    So I don't really care if the film is dark, light, OTT or 'serious' - I just want it to do whatever it's doing really well.
    Hear Hear. Totally agree. Just do it well whatever you do.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    At the end when DC could have killed Blofeld, they should have had some quick flash backs of Earnst crying in his room, and James seeing it. Then Bond could have had tears in his eyes and hugged his long lost 'brother' right there on the ground, and Earnst could have started sobbing incessantly... it would have been so emotional, so gripping....

    *choke* *snif*

    :P
  • Posts: 11,425
    Some childhood flashbacks! That's what we've been missing.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    The script for Dalton's 3rd film in 1991 had robots in it, so it seems that no matter how dark/gritty a Bond tenure starts, EON will always go towards MR/YOLT as the tenure progresses. Bond movies keep switching between dark and OTT, so I don't see how after 53 years and 24 movies people can still be shocked by the tone shifts.

    You know I almost thought they went this route deliberately, so that when they introduce the next Bond actor they can introduce him as gritty

    Connery - Dr No - Gritty tenure got softer/silly
    Moore in LALD 1st film Gritty tenure got softer/silly
    Lazenby - No Comment
    Dalton - TLD - Gritty
    Brosnan - Goldeneye - Gritty tenure got softer/silly

    Craig same path.

    I wonder if it is a ploy to help with the first of a new actors films be more a of hit.
    Yes, that's true. Usually the 2nd one is the dark one (except for Brosnan) and from the 3rd one onwards it gets a little lighter in tone.

    I think only Moore went back to a little grittier post MR, and that was because he had a long run.

    This suggests that if DC stays, the lighter, more carefree tone will stay too. If it's a new Bond actor, then they really have unlimited options, which is why that would be my preference going forward. I am in the mood for something new with someone new personally. Although DC has been great, he is the 2nd actor in a row who seems to have peaked with his first film (in terms of its perceived quality among the masses), imho.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,372
    chrisisall wrote: »
    At the end when DC could have killed Blofeld, they should have had some quick flash backs of Earnst crying in his room, and James seeing it. Then Bond could have had tears in his eyes and hugged his long lost 'brother' right there on the ground, and Earnst could have started sobbing incessantly... it would have been so emotional, so gripping....

    *choke* *snif*

    :P

    And then they lock hands and skip off in unison for some ice cream! End film, end series, James Bond will NOT return because he's too busy with his brother.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,686
    To quote an old idea from M_Balje that @DarthDimi may remember... Bond should have used a tow-truck to bring Blofeld to a secret place. ;)
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    At the end when DC could have killed Blofeld, they should have had some quick flash backs of Earnst crying in his room, and James seeing it. Then Bond could have had tears in his eyes and hugged his long lost 'brother' right there on the ground, and Earnst could have started sobbing incessantly... it would have been so emotional, so gripping....

    *choke* *snif*

    :P

    And then they lock hands and skip off in unison for some ice cream! End film, end series, James Bond will NOT return because he's too busy with his brother.

    And the critics would have called it a bold new character-driven Bond as you've never seen him!
  • Posts: 11,425
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    At the end when DC could have killed Blofeld, they should have had some quick flash backs of Earnst crying in his room, and James seeing it. Then Bond could have had tears in his eyes and hugged his long lost 'brother' right there on the ground, and Earnst could have started sobbing incessantly... it would have been so emotional, so gripping....

    *choke* *snif*

    :P

    And then they lock hands and skip off in unison for some ice cream! End film, end series, James Bond will NOT return because he's too busy with his brother.

    And the critics would have called it a bold new character-driven Bond as you've never seen him!

    Where's the strong Bond girl?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    Grrrrr, I have the day off today, but because of this nutty holiday I can't be at the cinema watching SP again! Curses!
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 1,497
    I liked that Daniel Day Lewis idea you guys mentioned. I think the filmmakers could have built up the reveal better. I like the Spectre scene in the beginning scene with ESB in the shadows. But I would have preferred keeping him shrouded in secrecy the whole of the movie like FRWL and have C and/or Hinx be principal villains. Or better yet have Oberhauser be the main villain wearing the Nehru suit and all so you think he is ESB but then do a bait and switch and have someone else revealed as ESB so it's more of a shocking reveal. As @Getafix said above it felt like they were rushing to get ESB in the movie. Build him up a little more.

    @RC7 - sorry I didn't respond earlier as I've been offline, but to your question about ESB concocting a decade+ long plan, I was meaning that if he had this grudge since they were teenagers then his revenge would be decades in the making. Or you could also look at it if he was behind the scheme in CR, then his plan would be nearly a decade in the making, assuming amount of time that passes story wise from CR and Sp matches the real time between films (correct me if I'm wrong) - it's semantics really and besides the point. I'm speaking high level: from what I saw in Spectre the crux of ESB's evil plans from the Quantum organization through Spectre was driven by a need to make Bond suffer for invading his childhood nest. Perhaps he had other motives, but that's what I got from the movie. I'm open to other readings/interpretations though.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    JBFan626 wrote: »
    @RC7 - sorry I didn't respond earlier as I've been offline, but to your question about ESB concocting a decade+ long plan, I was meaning that if he had this grudge since they were teenagers then his revenge would be decades in the making.

    No worries. I get your point, what I was getting at is that it appears to me his connection with Bond stems from the events of CR onwards. If he'd had such a beef with Bond he'd surely have offed him along with his father. It was Bond's reappearance in his world that seemed to have irked him, rather than any longstanding hatred.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    RC7 wrote: »
    JBFan626 wrote: »
    @RC7 - sorry I didn't respond earlier as I've been offline, but to your question about ESB concocting a decade+ long plan, I was meaning that if he had this grudge since they were teenagers then his revenge would be decades in the making.

    No worries. I get your point, what I was getting at is that it appears to me his connection with Bond stems from the events of CR onwards. If he'd had such a beef with Bond he'd surely have offed him along with his father. It was Bond's reappearance in his world that seemed to have irked him, rather than any longstanding hatred.
    Yeah, it's definitely a sidebar to the world domination thing.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 11,425
    JBFan626 wrote: »
    I liked that Daniel Day Lewis idea you guys mentioned. I think the filmmakers could have built up the reveal better. I like the Spectre scene in the beginning scene with ESB in the shadows. But I would have preferred keeping him shrouded in secrecy the whole of the movie like FRWL and have C and/or Hinx be principal villains. Or better yet have Oberhauser be the main villain wearing the Nehru suit and all so you think he is ESB but then do a bait and switch and have someone else revealed as ESB so it's more of a shocking reveal. As @Getafix said above it felt like they were rushing to get ESB in the movie. Build him up a little more.

    @RC7 - sorry I didn't respond earlier as I've been offline, but to your question about ESB concocting a decade+ long plan, I was meaning that if he had this grudge since they were teenagers then his revenge would be decades in the making. Or you could also look at it if he was behind the scheme in CR, then his plan would be nearly a decade in the making, assuming amount of time that passes story wise from CR and Sp matches the real time between films (correct me if I'm wrong) - it's semantics really and besides the point. I'm speaking high level: from what I saw in Spectre the crux of ESB's evil plans from the Quantum organization through Spectre was driven by a need to make Bond suffer for invading his childhood nest. Perhaps he had other motives, but that's what I got from the movie. I'm open to other readings/interpretations though.


    May be I misunderstood but I didn't get the impression that Blofeld's been doing everything he has in order to get Bond. Doesn't Blofeld just say that Bond keeps on getting in his way, and therefore the people around Bond keep on dieing.

    Blofeld does say that the path he's gone down in life is partly because of Bond but he hasn't built up his evil empire purely in order to take on Bond. They are two men who have a shares past who have gone down different paths.

    It's a tired old cliche and not very well done, but it doesn't annoy me too much. I found the SF plot even weaker - just GE reheated in the microwave, and it tasted awful the first time.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,418
    Regrading the reveal of ESB. During the torture scene, I was hoping that Waltz would play a No. 2 to ESB. Waltz is so chatty, when Bond is waking up, I took that as a nervous tick - Waltz was scared of being in front of ESB, kind of an over-enthusiastic underling, in front of his boss.

    But it wasn't to be. Alas.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    It's a tired old cliche and not very well done, but it doesn't annoy me too much. I found the SF plot even weaker - just GE reheated in the microwave, and it tasted awful the first time.
    It's executed poorly in my view, which is why it needs to be explained and even then is contradicted.

    That's why we have a script writing problem here and this needs to be corrected going forward. Misunderstanding his motivations or the extent of his motivations doesn't add to the discussion or enjoyment of the film, it detracts from it.

    That's not necessary and they should do a better job next time imho.
  • Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    It's a tired old cliche and not very well done, but it doesn't annoy me too much. I found the SF plot even weaker - just GE reheated in the microwave, and it tasted awful the first time.
    It's executed poorly in my view, which is why it needs to be explained and even then is contradicted.

    That's why we have a script writing problem here and this needs to be corrected going forward. Misunderstanding his motivations or the extent of his motivations doesn't add to the discussion or enjoyment of the film, it detracts from it.

    That's not necessary and they should do a better job next time imho.

    I agree. It's a bodge job, like SF. We hear Mendes and Craig apparently asking for rewrites to make sure everything's sorted and to "get it right" and then the end result is a mess.

    I have to say though, I thought the SP plot was a work of art compared to SF.

    But yes, I've been saying for years the writing on Bond has got to improve. It's p*ss poor frankly.

    There must be talented people queuing up to write for Bond. How does EON nearly always seem to settle on mediocrity these days?

    The same goes for production design and music. Production design has got better with Gassner (a lot better to be fair) but still lack the originality and flair of Ken Adam. No need to mention the gaping whole left by John Barry.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    It's a tired old cliche and not very well done, but it doesn't annoy me too much. I found the SF plot even weaker - just GE reheated in the microwave, and it tasted awful the first time.
    It's executed poorly in my view, which is why it needs to be explained and even then is contradicted.

    That's why we have a script writing problem here and this needs to be corrected going forward. Misunderstanding his motivations or the extent of his motivations doesn't add to the discussion or enjoyment of the film, it detracts from it.

    That's not necessary and they should do a better job next time imho.

    I agree. It's a bodge job, like SF. We hear Mendes and Craig apparently asking for rewrites to make sure everything's sorted and to "get it right" and then the end result is a mess.

    I have to say though, I thought the SP plot was a work of art compared to SF.

    But yes, I've been saying for years the writing on Bond has got to improve. It's p*ss poor frankly.

    There must be talented people queuing up to write for Bond. How does EON nearly always seem to settle on mediocrity these days?

    The same goes for production design and music. Production design has got better with Gassner (a lot better to be fair) but still lack the originality and flair of Ken Adam. No need to mention the gaping whole left by John Barry.
    Casting is much better now since the reboot, and their lead actor is obviously much better. That has been their saving grace over the past few years imho, despite shoddy script work.

    Apart from that, I really don't see massive improvement over the 90's (DAD is the exception as a parody). The same kind of cliches are slowly coming back in to it.

    In my opinion, only in CR did everything mesh perfectly for this generation, including the music (incorporation of title track into score like the past etc. etc.) & the dialogue.
  • Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    It's a tired old cliche and not very well done, but it doesn't annoy me too much. I found the SF plot even weaker - just GE reheated in the microwave, and it tasted awful the first time.
    It's executed poorly in my view, which is why it needs to be explained and even then is contradicted.

    That's why we have a script writing problem here and this needs to be corrected going forward. Misunderstanding his motivations or the extent of his motivations doesn't add to the discussion or enjoyment of the film, it detracts from it.

    That's not necessary and they should do a better job next time imho.

    I agree. It's a bodge job, like SF. We hear Mendes and Craig apparently asking for rewrites to make sure everything's sorted and to "get it right" and then the end result is a mess.

    I have to say though, I thought the SP plot was a work of art compared to SF.

    But yes, I've been saying for years the writing on Bond has got to improve. It's p*ss poor frankly.

    There must be talented people queuing up to write for Bond. How does EON nearly always seem to settle on mediocrity these days?

    The same goes for production design and music. Production design has got better with Gassner (a lot better to be fair) but still lack the originality and flair of Ken Adam. No need to mention the gaping whole left by John Barry.
    Casting is much better now since the reboot, and their lead actor is obviously much better. That has been their saving grace over the past few years imho, despite shoddy script work.

    Apart from that, I really don't see massive improvement over the 90's (DAD is the exception as a parody). The same kind of cliches are slowly coming back in to it.

    In my opinion, only in CR did everything mesh perfectly for this generation, including the music (incorporation of title track into score like the past etc. etc.) & the dialogue.

    Totally agree about the CR soundtrack. Best Bond music since Barry. Arnold did good work there, including the title track and working it into the score.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 1,497
    Getafix wrote: »
    [

    May be I misunderstood but I didn't get the impression that Blofeld's been doing everything he has in order to get Bond. Doesn't Blofeld just say that Bond keeps on getting in his way, and therefore the people around Bond keep on dieing.

    Blofeld does say that the path he's gone down in life is partly because of Bond but he hasn't built up his evil empire purely in order to take on Bond. They are two men who have a shares past who have gone down different paths.

    I see what you mean. Their lives could be two different parallel paths. Its just all a bit coincidental don't you think? When he says "it was me all along James, I am the architect of all your pain", he seems to suggest he's been playing this cat and mouse game with Bond the whole time. By having ESB behind everything in the past 3 films it takes a bit of the weight out of those individual stories. Couldn't he have explained how/why he was behind it all? (maybe too much exposition for audiences I suppose) But if the writers are going to make that leap, and it's a massive leap I feel you've got to put a little more meat into backstory so you really feel like he is a major evil threat who is capable of orchestrating all of this behind the scenes. Not just, "hey he's the mastermind behind it all just because we're telling you he is and he's ESB." Maybe we'll get more details in Bond25...

  • Posts: 11,425
    JBFan626 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    [

    May be I misunderstood but I didn't get the impression that Blofeld's been doing everything he has in order to get Bond. Doesn't Blofeld just say that Bond keeps on getting in his way, and therefore the people around Bond keep on dieing.

    Blofeld does say that the path he's gone down in life is partly because of Bond but he hasn't built up his evil empire purely in order to take on Bond. They are two men who have a shares past who have gone down different paths.

    I see what you mean. Their lives could be two different parallel paths. Its just all a bit coincidental don't you think? When he says "it was me all along James, I am the architect of all your pain", he seems to suggest he's been playing this cat and mouse game with Bond the whole time. By having ESB behind everything in the past 3 films it takes a bit of the weight out of those individual stories. Couldn't he have explained how/why he was behind it all? (maybe too much exposition for audiences I suppose) But if the writers are going to make that leap, and it's a massive leap I feel you've got to put a little more meat into backstory so you really feel like he is a major evil threat who is capable of orchestrating all of this behind the scenes. Not just, "hey he's the mastermind behind it all just because we're telling you he is and he's ESB." Maybe we'll get more details in Bond25...

    I think giving more detail would have been a mistake. That becomes a black hole of continuity and trying to explain the inexplicable. I agree That the brothers thing wasn't needed but having gone down that route best to keep it simple.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    Getafix wrote: »
    I agree That the brothers thing wasn't needed but having gone down that route best to keep it simple.
    Yes, keep it a bit ambiguous. We can fill in what we like (or not) in our heads.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I agree That the brothers thing wasn't needed but having gone down that route best to keep it simple.
    Yes, keep it a bit ambiguous. We can fill in what we like (or not) in our heads.

    Absolutely.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,418
    Whilst watching SP for the first time, I got the same interpretations on ESB's shenanigans that @Getafix and @RC7 did.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2015 Posts: 17,687
    My Son still feels that Connery in DN is the Bond he likes the most. He rejects Moore films as too silly, he 'appreciates' my love of Dalton, and said he had a fair time with TLD, he thought Brosnan was pretty good in TND, he bailed on CR pretty early on, he stuck out QOS & said it was pretty good actually, he watched most of SF with me and said "Everything wrong with Skyfall in 4 minutes or less" was more entertaining, but he said based upon what he's heard about SP he's wanting to see it as soon as I get the BD. I think he'll REALLY like it.
  • Posts: 7,653
    Lets hope that the next one is willing to go heads to heads with the next Bourne & MI movies, because they are currently beating the 007 franchise at their game.
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