Are we all happy now that dust has settled? -Spectre Spoilers

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    It's a tired old cliche and not very well done, but it doesn't annoy me too much. I found the SF plot even weaker - just GE reheated in the microwave, and it tasted awful the first time.
    It's executed poorly in my view, which is why it needs to be explained and even then is contradicted.

    That's why we have a script writing problem here and this needs to be corrected going forward. Misunderstanding his motivations or the extent of his motivations doesn't add to the discussion or enjoyment of the film, it detracts from it.

    That's not necessary and they should do a better job next time imho.

    I agree. It's a bodge job, like SF. We hear Mendes and Craig apparently asking for rewrites to make sure everything's sorted and to "get it right" and then the end result is a mess.

    I have to say though, I thought the SP plot was a work of art compared to SF.

    But yes, I've been saying for years the writing on Bond has got to improve. It's p*ss poor frankly.

    There must be talented people queuing up to write for Bond. How does EON nearly always seem to settle on mediocrity these days?

    The same goes for production design and music. Production design has got better with Gassner (a lot better to be fair) but still lack the originality and flair of Ken Adam. No need to mention the gaping whole left by John Barry.
    Casting is much better now since the reboot, and their lead actor is obviously much better. That has been their saving grace over the past few years imho, despite shoddy script work.

    Apart from that, I really don't see massive improvement over the 90's (DAD is the exception as a parody). The same kind of cliches are slowly coming back in to it.

    In my opinion, only in CR did everything mesh perfectly for this generation, including the music (incorporation of title track into score like the past etc. etc.) & the dialogue.
  • Posts: 10,847
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    It's a tired old cliche and not very well done, but it doesn't annoy me too much. I found the SF plot even weaker - just GE reheated in the microwave, and it tasted awful the first time.
    It's executed poorly in my view, which is why it needs to be explained and even then is contradicted.

    That's why we have a script writing problem here and this needs to be corrected going forward. Misunderstanding his motivations or the extent of his motivations doesn't add to the discussion or enjoyment of the film, it detracts from it.

    That's not necessary and they should do a better job next time imho.

    I agree. It's a bodge job, like SF. We hear Mendes and Craig apparently asking for rewrites to make sure everything's sorted and to "get it right" and then the end result is a mess.

    I have to say though, I thought the SP plot was a work of art compared to SF.

    But yes, I've been saying for years the writing on Bond has got to improve. It's p*ss poor frankly.

    There must be talented people queuing up to write for Bond. How does EON nearly always seem to settle on mediocrity these days?

    The same goes for production design and music. Production design has got better with Gassner (a lot better to be fair) but still lack the originality and flair of Ken Adam. No need to mention the gaping whole left by John Barry.
    Casting is much better now since the reboot, and their lead actor is obviously much better. That has been their saving grace over the past few years imho, despite shoddy script work.

    Apart from that, I really don't see massive improvement over the 90's (DAD is the exception as a parody). The same kind of cliches are slowly coming back in to it.

    In my opinion, only in CR did everything mesh perfectly for this generation, including the music (incorporation of title track into score like the past etc. etc.) & the dialogue.

    Totally agree about the CR soundtrack. Best Bond music since Barry. Arnold did good work there, including the title track and working it into the score.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 1,497
    Getafix wrote: »
    [

    May be I misunderstood but I didn't get the impression that Blofeld's been doing everything he has in order to get Bond. Doesn't Blofeld just say that Bond keeps on getting in his way, and therefore the people around Bond keep on dieing.

    Blofeld does say that the path he's gone down in life is partly because of Bond but he hasn't built up his evil empire purely in order to take on Bond. They are two men who have a shares past who have gone down different paths.

    I see what you mean. Their lives could be two different parallel paths. Its just all a bit coincidental don't you think? When he says "it was me all along James, I am the architect of all your pain", he seems to suggest he's been playing this cat and mouse game with Bond the whole time. By having ESB behind everything in the past 3 films it takes a bit of the weight out of those individual stories. Couldn't he have explained how/why he was behind it all? (maybe too much exposition for audiences I suppose) But if the writers are going to make that leap, and it's a massive leap I feel you've got to put a little more meat into backstory so you really feel like he is a major evil threat who is capable of orchestrating all of this behind the scenes. Not just, "hey he's the mastermind behind it all just because we're telling you he is and he's ESB." Maybe we'll get more details in Bond25...

  • Posts: 10,847
    JBFan626 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    [

    May be I misunderstood but I didn't get the impression that Blofeld's been doing everything he has in order to get Bond. Doesn't Blofeld just say that Bond keeps on getting in his way, and therefore the people around Bond keep on dieing.

    Blofeld does say that the path he's gone down in life is partly because of Bond but he hasn't built up his evil empire purely in order to take on Bond. They are two men who have a shares past who have gone down different paths.

    I see what you mean. Their lives could be two different parallel paths. Its just all a bit coincidental don't you think? When he says "it was me all along James, I am the architect of all your pain", he seems to suggest he's been playing this cat and mouse game with Bond the whole time. By having ESB behind everything in the past 3 films it takes a bit of the weight out of those individual stories. Couldn't he have explained how/why he was behind it all? (maybe too much exposition for audiences I suppose) But if the writers are going to make that leap, and it's a massive leap I feel you've got to put a little more meat into backstory so you really feel like he is a major evil threat who is capable of orchestrating all of this behind the scenes. Not just, "hey he's the mastermind behind it all just because we're telling you he is and he's ESB." Maybe we'll get more details in Bond25...

    I think giving more detail would have been a mistake. That becomes a black hole of continuity and trying to explain the inexplicable. I agree That the brothers thing wasn't needed but having gone down that route best to keep it simple.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 15,977
    Getafix wrote: »
    I agree That the brothers thing wasn't needed but having gone down that route best to keep it simple.
    Yes, keep it a bit ambiguous. We can fill in what we like (or not) in our heads.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,189
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I agree That the brothers thing wasn't needed but having gone down that route best to keep it simple.
    Yes, keep it a bit ambiguous. We can fill in what we like (or not) in our heads.

    Absolutely.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 3,949
    Whilst watching SP for the first time, I got the same interpretations on ESB's shenanigans that @Getafix and @RC7 did.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2015 Posts: 15,977
    My Son still feels that Connery in DN is the Bond he likes the most. He rejects Moore films as too silly, he 'appreciates' my love of Dalton, and said he had a fair time with TLD, he thought Brosnan was pretty good in TND, he bailed on CR pretty early on, he stuck out QOS & said it was pretty good actually, he watched most of SF with me and said "Everything wrong with Skyfall in 4 minutes or less" was more entertaining, but he said based upon what he's heard about SP he's wanting to see it as soon as I get the BD. I think he'll REALLY like it.
  • Posts: 7,186
    Lets hope that the next one is willing to go heads to heads with the next Bourne & MI movies, because they are currently beating the 007 franchise at their game.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,189
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Lets hope that the next one is willing to go heads to heads with the next Bourne & MI movies, because they are currently beating the 007 franchise at their game.

    Bourne? You mean 'Legacy', or the 8 year old 'Supremacy'?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 15,977
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Lets hope that the next one is willing to go heads to heads with the next Bourne & MI movies, because they are currently beating the 007 franchise at their game.
    As ACTION films? Possibly. But Bond is more than that.
    ;)
  • Posts: 3,217
    Hmm in what way did the Bourne Legacy beat Skyfall in 2012?
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,090
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Lets hope that the next one is willing to go heads to heads with the next Bourne & MI movies, because they are currently beating the 007 franchise at their game.

    Doubt it. The new Bourne movie comes out next year and MI5 comes out in 2017. We won't see Bond until 2018. The good news is hopefully the new Bourne film will remind Bond how to tell a cohesive and engaging action thriller.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 15,977
    doubleoego wrote: »
    The good news is hopefully the new Bourne film will remind Bond how to tell a cohesive and engaging action thriller.
    Too late; SPECTRE is that...
    ^:)^
  • Posts: 1,434
    Pay attention next summer to Bourne, if its a major financial & critical success EON will follow like they similar in vein to Bourne Identity/ CR
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,090
    chrisisall wrote: »
    doubleoego wrote: »
    The good news is hopefully the new Bourne film will remind Bond how to tell a cohesive and engaging action thriller.
    Too late; SPECTRE is that...
    ^:)^

    I'm glad you think so. SP is definitely a fun and entertaining ride and I enjoyed it but I also found its flaws prevented it from being a great film and lacking in truly being a fleshed out fully satisfying thriller.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 15,977
    doubleoego wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    doubleoego wrote: »
    The good news is hopefully the new Bourne film will remind Bond how to tell a cohesive and engaging action thriller.
    Too late; SPECTRE is that...
    ^:)^

    I'm glad you think so. SP is definitely a fun and entertaining ride and I enjoyed it but I also found its flaws prevented it from being a great film and lacking in truly being a fleshed out fully satisfying thriller.
    I'm sorry you think so. SP is definitely a fun and entertaining ride and I enjoyed it and its ability to encompass Dan's entire run so far despite the obvious albeit inconsequential narrative flaws inherent in such an attempt. A satisfying thriller it was.
    I has spoken! :x
  • Posts: 442
    chrisisall wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Lets hope that the next one is willing to go heads to heads with the next Bourne & MI movies, because they are currently beating the 007 franchise at their game.
    As ACTION films? Possibly. But Bond is more than that.
    ;)

    Bond sure is. It's nothing new and we had all of this in the 80s with Indiana Jones doing so much better at the box office and Bond fans even then saying EON should have let Spielberg in.

    If anything, although not a spy franchise like Bourne and MI, the Bond series probably had more to worry about in the competition from Indiana Jones back in the day.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Indiana Jones was certainly action competition in the 80's. It had a debilitating effect on Bond, who was rolling with an aging Moore first, and then a relatively uncharismatic Dalton.

    However, MI & Bourne are definite 'spy thriller' competition for Bond these days. Sure, Damon's Bournes were many years ago, but they have a reputation of being tightly woven and delivered thrillers, with breath taking action sequences and scripts that showcase the intelligence of the protagonist. MI is doing the same over the past two, but in more of a team setting.

    I agree that these two franchises in particular will keep Bond / EON on their toes going forward. Even if they don't come close to the global commercial success of Bond, they have critical respect in circles, and that counts for something, otherwise we'd still be on the DAD route (Bourne never came close to Bond globally but definitely influenced them for CR/QoS). If anything else, they will ensure EON gets a competent action director next time (it's been a while).

    To be honest, I'd rather EON take inspiration from Bourne rather than DC/Marvel.
  • Posts: 442
    bondjames wrote: »
    To be honest, I'd rather EON take inspiration from Bourne rather than DC/Marvel.

    As a spy thriller it most probably should but as a cinematic experience it's clear the latter influence has prevailed for the last two Bonds and remains to be seen which influence will prevail for Bond 25. Will they go for where the money is or will MGW bring it back down to earth again.

    Definitely chalk me up as someone who was pleased with the Bourne influence on Bond though. When watching Bourne Identity at the cinema it made me realise just how much I'd missed spy films set in Europe with a gritty cold war feel and realistic and brutal fight sequences and tightly edited action sequences rather than the flabby efforts from Vic Armstrong.

    We just needed the right actor too and then a couple of years after DAD there was film shown on UK TV at Christmas called 'Mother' starring Daniel Craig. It was a domestic drama rather than a Bond audition piece but there was a scene in which he trashed a conservatory in a fit of anger and I thought we need a British Bond like him with a hint of aggressive assurance and masculinity that Connery had rather than continue with the metrosexual Brosnan model.

    The fact that Craig out of all people ended up being Bond and in a film which took its lead from Bourne of course made me rather delighted!

    I don't think the pacing of CR worked quite well compared to the recently released Bourne Supremacy but EON went with a decent attempt at Bourne brevity in QOS which whilst some people think is a disaster I find to be a very novel, stylish and brave Bond film.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 15,977
    Cowley wrote: »
    EON went with a decent attempt at Bourne brevity in QOS which whilst some people think is a disaster I find to be a very novel, stylish and brave Bond film.
    Agreed in spades!
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Cowley wrote: »
    Definitely chalk me up as someone who was pleased with the Bourne influence on Bond though. When watching Bourne Identity at the cinema it made me realise just how much I'd missed spy films set in Europe with a gritty cold war feel and realistic and brutal fight sequences and tightly edited action sequences rather than the flabby efforts from Vic Armstrong.
    I felt exactly the same way when watching Identity, and actually felt the score also had more cohesion than what we were getting from Arnold at that point.
    Cowley wrote: »
    We just needed the right actor too and then a couple of years after DAD there was film shown on UK TV at Christmas called 'Mother' starring Daniel Craig. It was a domestic drama rather than a Bond audition piece but there was a scene in which he trashed a conservatory in a fit of anger and I thought we need a British Bond like him with a hint of aggressive assurance and masculinity that Connery had rather than continue with the metrosexual Brosnan model.
    I agree. I think Bourne more than anything else put the nail in the Brosnan style of Bond.
    Cowley wrote: »
    I don't think the pacing of CR worked quite well compared to the recently released Bourne Supremacy but EON went with a decent attempt at Bourne brevity in QOS which whilst some people think is a disaster I find to be a very novel, stylish and brave Bond film.
    True. I agree, but I still rate CR as the superior effort (over QoS) because it felt more Bondian (glamour, visuals, dialogue and pace) while still having elements of Bourne brutality in the action sequencing. I agree that QoS is very brave, and is definitely underappreciated, but the pace was perhaps too brisk for a traditional (and perhaps older) Bond audience. It's a grower though.
  • Posts: 442
    bondjames wrote: »
    True. I agree, but I still rate CR as the superior effort (over QoS) because it felt more Bondian (glamour, visuals, dialogue and pace) while still having elements of Bourne brutality in the action sequencing. I agree that QoS is very brave, and is definitely underappreciated, but the pace was perhaps too brisk for a traditional (and perhaps older) Bond audience. It's a grower though.

    Oh yes CR has the benefit of the Fleming material and also an almost noir feel. I liked little touches such as the slow cross fade from once scene (Vesper sipping the cocktail in her name) to another (back to the card table) very old school cinema.

    CR is still the anchor point of the Craig films like FRWL is for Connery.

    The oddest thing about the pace of QOS is the initial scene with Dominic Greene at the docks with Camille and then Medrano actually being ridiculously long compared to every other scene in the film. I do rather recall thinking 'get on with it'.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    QoS is just a speeding bullet. It doesn't stop for air except probably in that scene you mentioned and a few others like Tosca & the Greene Planet party. Truly a one of a kind Bond film, like LTK, and both are high on my list as a result.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 15,977
    bondjames wrote: »
    I think Bourne more than anything else put the nail in the Brosnan style of Bond.

    AHEM. It wasn't just Brosnan. GohDam you guys love to pin it on him. *

    *See DAF - AVTAK
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    chrisisall wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I think Bourne more than anything else put the nail in the Brosnan style of Bond.

    AHEM. It wasn't just Brosnan. GohDam you guys love to pin it on him. *

    *See DAF - AVTAK
    He was the incumbent Bond at the time, and I was referring to his take on the character more than anything else. We'll never know if Moore or Connery could have survived Bourne, but they did survive a lot of threats in their time, although for Moore, age caught up with him in the 80's.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2015 Posts: 15,977
    Break down time:
    Early Connery- deadly serious.
    Later Connery- Flint time.
    Lazenby- mostly deadly serious.
    Moore- Mainly Flint.
    Dalton- mostly deadly serious.
    Brosnan- a safe & generally palatable mix of deadly serious & Flint.
    Craig- Deadly serious (with a hint of levity in SP).
  • Posts: 442
    bondjames wrote: »
    QoS is just a speeding bullet. It doesn't stop for air except probably in that scene you mentioned and a few others like Tosca & the Greene Planet party. Truly a one of a kind Bond film, like LTK, and both are high on my list as a result.

    I rate LTK right up there with QOS too. Neither were immediate top of the list films but they seem to be slow burners which reward on repeat viewings and climb my rankings whilst others fell in and then out of favour.

    I accept most of the criticisms of QOS but as someone who's suffered the death of their partner I actually think it deserves some kudos in providing a Bond film which deals with bereavement, sorrow, hurt and revenge in the subtle fashion it does with two lead characters who are pretty joyless throughout with their understandable loss of mojo.

    I love that Bond and Camille win the day as it were but are still completely non-exuberant and deflated about it. "I don't think the dead care about vengeance", "...now what?". From my own personal experiences this resonates quite a lot.

    It's a film which exposes us to the hardships of life too with the poverty we see in Haiti and Bolivia. Bond films are often about glamour but here we have the other extreme and with the additional poignancy that the Quantum organisation is responsible for this suffering be it the regime changes or withholding the water supply.

    I hope the reappraisal long continues!
  • Posts: 1,434
    I really think in another 5-10 years QOS will be looked upon more favorably, not like Ohmss type of way but well regardarded & different.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Cowley wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    QoS is just a speeding bullet. It doesn't stop for air except probably in that scene you mentioned and a few others like Tosca & the Greene Planet party. Truly a one of a kind Bond film, like LTK, and both are high on my list as a result.

    I rate LTK right up there with QOS too. Neither were immediate top of the list films but they seem to be slow burners which reward on repeat viewings and climb my rankings whilst others fell in and then out of favour.

    I accept most of the criticisms of QOS but as someone who's suffered the death of their partner I actually think it deserves some kudos in providing a Bond film which deals with bereavement, sorrow, hurt and revenge in the subtle fashion it does with two lead characters who are pretty joyless throughout with their understandable loss of mojo.

    I love that Bond and Camille win the day as it were but are still completely non-exuberant and deflated about it. "I don't think the dead care about vengeance", "...now what?". From my own personal experiences this resonates quite a lot.

    It's a film which exposes us to the hardships of life too with the poverty we see in Haiti and Bolivia. Bond films are often about glamour but here we have the other extreme and with the additional poignancy that the Quantum organisation is responsible for this suffering be it the regime changes or withholding the water supply.

    I hope the reappraisal long continues!
    I agree with your comments. I remember after I first saw it I wasn't disappointed. I was more surprised, because it wasn't what I was expecting at all after CR.

    I knew even on first watch that it was an intriguing and solid film (because they kept the tone serious) and with some interesting (and almost mature for Bond) plot points around realpolitik, geopolitics & real world themes, like poverty as you note.

    My disappointment rested mainly with the action scene editing like most, but certainly not with DC. I thought he was magnificent, and I even liked Almaric.

    The Bourne Supremacy influence was very clear to me.......especially in how they made us see things from Bond's perspective.....so we only know as much as he knows and learn as he learns.......like when he first meets Camille in the little Ford and has to wing it about Slate. That scene confused the hell out of me in the theatre, including his interaction with the guy following them on the bike...... all of that is very Bourne like.

    I actually think that in time I will rate QoS higher than SP, once the initial glow of that film wears off. QoS has benefited from SP for me, just like others are seeing SF in a new light post-SP.
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