NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • Posts: 988
    echo wrote: »
    And Bond gets a triumphant death.
    EDDIEVH wrote: »
    Overall, it's still Craig's worst and the worst Bond film of all for me, 25th of 25. A real shame Craig went out like that.

    You're not going with Echo's 'upbeat ending/triumphant death' line of thought then EDDIEVH?

    I think if they'd have gone for the ambiguous/open ended finale of YOLT, I'd have liked it a lot better. It'd still be down the bottom of the list because of other reasons. But it would certainly have been more palatable.
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    edited July 2022 Posts: 554
    echo wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    After the relative failure of OHMSS, and triumph of CR (which found a way to soften its downer ending), Eon was never going to go out on the downer ending of the novel YOLT.

    Maybe YOLT still would work as a cliffhanger *if* the same Bond actor is planning to return in the next film and if the period between films is relatively short (say, between Bond 26 and 27)...but there is no way Eon was going to write Craig, who, after all, reinvigorated the franchise after years of tired retreads, out in a bleak, open-ended manner.
    In all fairness, the end of NTTD is still pretty downbeat.

    Not nearly as downbeat as OHMSS. And Bond gets a triumphant death.
    As bleak as Majesty's ending was, the story wasn't conclusively over in the same way as killing Bond himself.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,382
    I've never bothered with watching it past Bond returning to Norway. And it's odd because I do enjoy reading posts both here and elsewhere, Bond fans or not who defend the film since its a reflection of the franchise. I still don't know what to think of the film. The first 90 minutes is great but we all know where it ends up leading towards and it sours the film. Similar to how I feel about Avengers Endgame. Both heroes sacrifice themselves for the greater good but there had to be other ways in which neither had to perish.
  • I’ve still only seen it the once, and I was pretty conflicted coming out of the theater. The first half, up until the end of the Cuba sequence, I thought was largely pretty terrific and I thought it might end up being as good as Skyfall. Once Bond returned to London the film seemed to get noticeably worse to me, or at least I began to fixate on all the things I didn’t like, so by the end of the movie the intended emotions really didn’t land for me. But now that I’m quite far removed from my first screening I’m just starting to get a desire to revisit it, and hopefully I’m far enough out that I can begin to enjoy it warts and all the way I can some of the other messy, tonally inconsistent Bonds. I’m doubtful I’ll do a 180 on it in either direction though.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 2,895
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    Those (scenes) what I liked still didn't changed, after watching it again. But those what I didn't liked got worse with each subsequent viewings.

    Have to say, I've had a similar reaction. I can't even sit through the assault on the lab any more and I've lost patience with the dafter bits of Cuba, too. Mid-shootout drinking games and 'can I cut in', indeed...

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,372
    Everything in London is where the film really falls off for me. I think I'd like the film even more had they scrapped that bit entirely and went with something else to progress Bond's mission; the film just sort of whimpers by in these moments before it's improved on in the last act or so.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,009
    Yeah the London scenes stop the film dead in its tracks. There's a lot to get through - reintroducing Safin, Bond meeting the old crew, Bond and Blofeld. The film does its best to get through all of it as efficiently as it can but with so many things to bring together/tie up, it can't help but almost stall.
  • Posts: 6,682
    echo wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    After the relative failure of OHMSS, and triumph of CR (which found a way to soften its downer ending), Eon was never going to go out on the downer ending of the novel YOLT.

    Maybe YOLT still would work as a cliffhanger *if* the same Bond actor is planning to return in the next film and if the period between films is relatively short (say, between Bond 26 and 27)...but there is no way Eon was going to write Craig, who, after all, reinvigorated the franchise after years of tired retreads, out in a bleak, open-ended manner.
    In all fairness, the end of NTTD is still pretty downbeat.

    Not nearly as downbeat as OHMSS.

    I couldn't disagree more.

    OHMSS: Teresa is dead, but Bond lives on to fight back against SPECTRE.

    NTTD: Bond's family is safe, the world is safe, but Bond is dead. Because these films gravitate around Bond, his death means the end of his adventures, and the fantasy of the films running into the cold, hard reality of Bond's mortality.

    NTTD is the end of Bond, that's why I find it much sadder.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited July 2022 Posts: 4,247
    To be honest, when the running time was first announced, I didn't necessarily think about action scenes, because action is already a guarantee in Bond films. I instead thought we were in for a pacy, highly suspenseful, cat & mouse game between the characters in NTTD.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,372
    I'd personally enjoy seeing shorter runtimes in the future. The last few have had moments of bloat and I feel like the general experiences could've benefitted from losing 20 minutes.
  • Posts: 3,273
    echo wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    After the relative failure of OHMSS, and triumph of CR (which found a way to soften its downer ending), Eon was never going to go out on the downer ending of the novel YOLT.

    Maybe YOLT still would work as a cliffhanger *if* the same Bond actor is planning to return in the next film and if the period between films is relatively short (say, between Bond 26 and 27)...but there is no way Eon was going to write Craig, who, after all, reinvigorated the franchise after years of tired retreads, out in a bleak, open-ended manner.
    In all fairness, the end of NTTD is still pretty downbeat.

    Not nearly as downbeat as OHMSS. And Bond gets a triumphant death.

    They are not in the same league. A Bond girl dies at the end of one film, but 007 lives to fight another day, cue the upbeat funky James Bond theme when the end credits roll.

    James Bond himself dies in NTTD, killing off the main character, and depriving him of the woman he loves and a daughter. Cue a very depressing song for the end credits.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,255
    @jetsetwilly … you find We Have All The Time In the World depressing as a song?

    James Bond gave the woman he loved, and his child, all the time in the world— the greatest gift he could have given them.

    I find it a poignant and beautiful ending.

    Not depressing.
  • Posts: 2,752
    Having watched it again my opinion is the same as when I first saw it. It's a mixed bag of a film. The highs are high and the lows are low for me.

    I will say though, it does make me more interested in seeing what we get from Bond 26. While there certainly will be a 'reinvention' of the franchise, it feels like NTTD is something of a stepping stone to get to something much more polished/interesting.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    I've only sat all the way through it once, but I've dropped in and out a bit. I still like most of the pre-credit sequence and the Spectre party. And Jamaica scenes as well actually.
    mtm is such a prolific poster and defender of NTTD here it surprised me that they'd only seen the film twice.
    Usually, when a Bond film comes out on DVD, I'd be embarrassed to tell people how many times I'd watch it in the first few months. I'd certainly get weekly viewings in, though NTTD has certainly bucked the trend for that.
    There's a Yorkshire saying "tha's properly muckied tha' ticket with me". That's how I feel about the Bond franchise and NTTD.

    I used to watch new films on DVD multiple times when I was in my late teens and early 20s. I don’t really do that much anymore. I rarely even go to see movies multiple times in theaters. Maybe a movie twice, but that would be it, and I’d have to love it.

    However, when enough time has passed, I find myself watching them multiple times. SKYFALL is my 2nd favorite Bond film ever, but for awhile I didn’t have much desire to revisit it when it hit blu-ray. It was only years later that I would pop it in. Same thing with SPECTRE. Maybe NTTD’s time will come in a year or so when I feel like putting it on.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,372
    007HallY wrote: »
    Having watched it again my opinion is the same as when I first saw it. It's a mixed bag of a film. The highs are high and the lows are low for me.

    I will say though, it does make me more interested in seeing what we get from Bond 26. While there certainly will be a 'reinvention' of the franchise, it feels like NTTD is something of a stepping stone to get to something much more polished/interesting.

    I'm thoroughly excited for the next era for this reason alone. The initial installment from any given actor usually ranks amongst my favorites and I'm eager for something a bit more stripped back and simplistic for this next film (hopefully, anyway). If anything, it should certainly be interesting and fresh.
  • Posts: 2,752
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Having watched it again my opinion is the same as when I first saw it. It's a mixed bag of a film. The highs are high and the lows are low for me.

    I will say though, it does make me more interested in seeing what we get from Bond 26. While there certainly will be a 'reinvention' of the franchise, it feels like NTTD is something of a stepping stone to get to something much more polished/interesting.

    I'm thoroughly excited for the next era for this reason alone. The initial installment from any given actor usually ranks amongst my favorites and I'm eager for something a bit more stripped back and simplistic for this next film (hopefully, anyway). If anything, it should certainly be interesting and fresh.

    Yes, the new Bond actor's first film tends to be very well received. It'll also be interesting seeing what elements of NTTD they go against and what they keep. It's often not a straightforward case of the next film being completely different, but of them retaining certain things (ie. LALD had much of DAF's lighter tone, while consciously reinventing the series. Same for certain elements of TLD after the Moore era. Heck, GE retained shades of darkness/elements of the personal that were evoked in LTK. Even CR kept the idea of Bond going rogue seen in DAD, while also having a few rather over the top action sequences).

    I think we'll see a few strands from NTTD make their way into the next one. I can imagine them having another go at a villain with a more sympathetic revenge motive, or possibly they'll throw in a lot more Horror type elements into the mix that we kind of got in NTTD (ie. the opening in Norway, the killing of the SPECTRE agents in Cuba etc) in between what is essentially a more stripped back, lighter film.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 2022 Posts: 14,861
    I've never bothered with watching it past Bond returning to Norway. And it's odd because I do enjoy reading posts both here and elsewhere, Bond fans or not who defend the film since its a reflection of the franchise. I still don't know what to think of the film. The first 90 minutes is great but we all know where it ends up leading towards and it sours the film. Similar to how I feel about Avengers Endgame. Both heroes sacrifice themselves for the greater good but there had to be other ways in which neither had to perish.

    I kind of have the same feeling with rewatching a lot of Bonds: FYEO for example I sometimes don't get beyond the ski chase because not much after that matches what went before for my money. So yeah, I can imagine turning off at Norway because I can't think of much in the way of good bits after that. I think I'd certainly skip the lab raid as per Venutius.

    I do blame the director for not pulling it together and sharpening it up, and I think he just fails to add in the moments of pleasure and wit you want from a Bond.
  • Posts: 3,273
    peter wrote: »
    @jetsetwilly … you find We Have All The Time In the World depressing as a song?

    James Bond gave the woman he loved, and his child, all the time in the world— the greatest gift he could have given them.

    I find it a poignant and beautiful ending.

    Not depressing.

    Amazing how we as Bond films can see things so differently.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    Yeah, I don’t really find NTTD’s ending that depressing.

    A real depressing ending would be if Madeleine and Mathilde were horribly murdered, and Bond, so depressed from seeing the outcome, takes his PPK and blows his brains out in full view. The villains get away with their scheme, and MI6 is left in shock witnessing the world coming to and end.

    THAT would be depressing. A nihilistic end with no hope for the future.

    Part of why NTTD can’t be seen as a depressing ending is that in spite of Bond’s sacrifice, he leaves the world knowing he left it in a better place. All his enemies are dead and his loved ones get to live a life of peace.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,483
    Yeah, I don’t really find NTTD’s ending that depressing.

    A real depressing ending would be if Madeleine and Mathilde were horribly murdered, and Bond, so depressed from seeing the outcome, takes his PPK and blows his brains out in full view. The villains get away with their scheme, and MI6 is left in shock witnessing the world coming to and end.

    THAT would be depressing. A nihilistic end with no hope for the future.

    Part of why NTTD can’t be seen as a depressing ending is that in spite of Bond’s sacrifice, he leaves the world knowing he left it in a better place. All his enemies are dead and his loved ones get to live a life of peace.

    That's a fair post mate and I get your point, but I don't agree with NTTD not having depressing ending. In my mind, James Bond is dead therefore everything else is irrelevant. That's the most depressing ending you could have, bar none
  • Posts: 988
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    That's a fair post mate and I get your point, but I don't agree with NTTD not having depressing ending. In my mind, James Bond is dead therefore everything else is irrelevant. That's the most depressing ending you could have, bar none

    The added problem with Bond's ultimate sacrifice is we're told later - in the same movie - that he isn't dead after all.
    Imagine watching the Godfather and it saying at the end that Don Corleone will be back. Or 'stay tuned for more adventures of Thelma and Louise' after they'd driven off the cliff.

    What a load of daftness.
  • Posts: 12,837
    “It was only a Bond girl and the Bond theme played at the end so it wasn’t that sad” is a mental reading of the ending of OHMSS. Bond loses the woman he loves, the one he was going to settle down with, and we see this icon of alpha male masculinity break down and cry for the first time, over her lifeless corpse. If you personally care more about Bond dying then fair enough but I think they’re both as tragic as eachother.
    I couldn't agree more, @matt_u and @FoxRox . Rather than diminish, every time I rewatch it my love for this film grows and get deeper. And I can't logically explain it but it moves me in ways the no other Bond film does, Majesty's gets close which makes sense as NTTD is very much a homage, (or shameless ripoff depending on your politics) but I for me one enhances the other and vice versa.

    I find something new to enjoy about it every time, the idea that it's Madeleine's movie not Bond's. She was so shortchanged in Spectre but I find her such a compelling character and I really enjoyed Nomi a lot more on my last rewatch. Guess I appreciate an underdog :))

    Same. I wasn’t sure what to make of it at first to be honest, took a couple of viewings to settle, but I grew to love it and still do.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    That's a fair post mate and I get your point, but I don't agree with NTTD not having depressing ending. In my mind, James Bond is dead therefore everything else is irrelevant. That's the most depressing ending you could have, bar none

    The added problem with Bond's ultimate sacrifice is we're told later - in the same movie - that he isn't dead after all.
    Imagine watching the Godfather and it saying at the end that Don Corleone will be back. Or 'stay tuned for more adventures of Thelma and Louise' after they'd driven off the cliff.

    What a load of daftness.

    The movie isn’t telling you that Craig’s Bond isn’t dead. It’s telling you that Bond will return in a new iteration, separate from Craig’s films. Because the filmmakers actually believe audiences have the necessary comprehension skills to make that kind of distinction.
  • Posts: 988
    “It was only a Bond girl and the Bond theme played at the end so it wasn’t that sad” is a mental reading of the ending of OHMSS. Bond loses the woman he loves, the one he was going to settle down with, and we see this icon of alpha male masculinity break down and cry for the first time, over her lifeless corpse. If you personally care more about Bond dying then fair enough but I think they’re both as tragic as eachother.

    I think it could be seen that having one character in a single film die is less 'important' than killing off someone that's become one of the most successful and iconic screen characters, with over sixty years of movies behind them.
    Anyway, like I say, he's not dead anyway. He'll come back in 'another universe'. Perhaps the James Webb Space Telescope will show us a picture of it later today?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited July 2022 Posts: 8,000
    “It was only a Bond girl and the Bond theme played at the end so it wasn’t that sad” is a mental reading of the ending of OHMSS. Bond loses the woman he loves, the one he was going to settle down with, and we see this icon of alpha male masculinity break down and cry for the first time, over her lifeless corpse. If you personally care more about Bond dying then fair enough but I think they’re both as tragic as eachother.

    I think it could be seen that having one character in a single film die is less 'important' than killing off someone that's become one of the most successful and iconic screen characters, with over sixty years of movies behind them.

    Sure, they’re just Bond films. They’re not actually sacred
  • Posts: 2,752
    peter wrote: »
    @jetsetwilly … you find We Have All The Time In the World depressing as a song?

    James Bond gave the woman he loved, and his child, all the time in the world— the greatest gift he could have given them.

    I find it a poignant and beautiful ending.

    Not depressing.

    Amazing how we as Bond films can see things so differently.

    That's the nature of it. Especially with a film like NTTD.

    For what it's worth I found the ending to be a downer. But I do understand what it was going for - Bond's now this sort of 'mythic' figure in Mathilde's eyes, a man who lives on through Madeline's stories to her. It's a bit like Logan in which the man himself is dead by the end, and was arguably not all that heroic in the last years of his life, but the kids who escape at the end have the comics that mythicise him in the same way. Arguably he lives up to that idea with his sacrifice at the end...

    I mean, I think it was done better in Logan, but they're similar ideas I'd say.
  • edited July 2022 Posts: 988
    Sure, they’re just Bond films. They’re not actually sacred

    Speak for yourself!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    “It was only a Bond girl and the Bond theme played at the end so it wasn’t that sad” is a mental reading of the ending of OHMSS. Bond loses the woman he loves, the one he was going to settle down with, and we see this icon of alpha male masculinity break down and cry for the first time, over her lifeless corpse. If you personally care more about Bond dying then fair enough but I think they’re both as tragic as eachother.

    Yeah it's bizarre. OHMSS is definitely a sad ending, seems odd that it's even in doubt.
  • Posts: 12,837
    Anyway, like I say, he's not dead anyway. He'll come back in 'another universe'. Perhaps the James Webb Space Telescope will show us a picture of it later today?

    I know you don’t like it mate but at the end of the day this is how blockbuster films are now. I’d either embrace it or just stick to the first twenty, because they’re never going to go back to Cubby’s way of doing it again.
  • Posts: 3,273
    “It was only a Bond girl and the Bond theme played at the end so it wasn’t that sad” is a mental reading of the ending of OHMSS. Bond loses the woman he loves, the one he was going to settle down with, and we see this icon of alpha male masculinity break down and cry for the first time, over her lifeless corpse. If you personally care more about Bond dying then fair enough but I think they’re both as tragic as eachother.

    .
    I never said OHMSS isn't sad. I just don't find it as depressing as the ending to NTTD. A Bond girl tragically dies in Bond's arms - we've seen this many times before too. Probably Vesper's death and Bond's reaction is more upsetting in CR.

    Whereas NTTD is on a different level altogether - killing off the main character. It doesn't get any more bleak that that, seeing Bond die.



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