Is 'Tomorrow Never Dies' the most formulaic Bond film?

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Comments

  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    Octopussy wrote: »
    I've always found that Tomorrow Never Dies feels like a generic action film from the era, IMO. Not a fan at all. I also loathe that Bond has a gadget for literally every occasion in this film. The sequence where Bond breaks into the laboratory followed by the car chase has to be one of the most gadget-laden sequences in the series. Yawn!

    I love all of that. Great fun.

    Indeed....Quintessential James Bond Vignette.
  • edited July 2020 Posts: 4,400
    There's a new Rupert Murdoch documentary on BBC...it's terrific, you can essentially see how he became a seasoned practitioner of the dark arts and used his media empire to manipulate politicians to his will....from Tony Blair, David Cameron to Donald Trump.

    In Trump's case, Murdoch was behind installing his most ardent viewer into the President of the United States.

    In this respect, TND has become more and more relevant. Weirdly. In that film you have a satirical villain using his empire to create fake headlines (*cue a certain catchphrase*) to instigate a war for 'exclusives' and ratings.

    Initially, when I've watched the film before I saw this idea has quaint. However, after the Leveson Inquiry and phone-hacking scandal, it felt all too real. Now, we live in a world where certain leaders openly talk of their 'great ratings' and news networks deliberately create false agendas to effectively decide what is 'news.'

    Even, Nigel Farage answers to a higher power:



    TND might actually be terrific in quite how prescient it is....even their logo has hints of the Murdoch livery.

    480?cb=20190207002342
  • ThunderballThunderball playing Chemin de Fer in a casino, downing Vespers
    Posts: 776
    To answer the question posed in this thread’s title:

    Yes. Yes, it is.

    About the only real thing that isn’t so formulaic is Carver, his schemes are different, and it’s also down to just how much Pryce chews the scenery around him, leaving little for much else to stick out positively. Otherwise, I find it a bit of a letdown, especially after GE (which, to be frank, after I take my rosy nostalgia glasses off, isn’t a big standout either).
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,904
    I will say that TSWLM and MR are the most formulaic Bond movies. They are virtually carbon copies of themselves. TSWLM is a remake of YOLT in a lot of ways. It is remarkable that Stromberg and Drax have virtually the same aims, except Stromberg wishes to live under the sea and Drax wants to live in space. Why does Stromberg need to blow up the earth to do it is never explained and we never see his city so I am unclear as to what his intentions are if his plan is successful. Who will build the city and how? But I digress.

    TND at least attempts to inject something different with a former flame of Bond coming back. Too bad they didn't get a true former Bond leading lady to return. I liked the introduction of Michelle Yeoh has an equal of Bond. In some ways she's clearly a superior agent to Bond. I don't think this film is generic. I think it attempts something different, we can argue whether it's successful with it's aims.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 12,914
    TND is also a remake of YOLT in several ways. Not in a bad way.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    Possibly, but I still like TND. I could take or leave the 90's style John Woo-ish finale, but other than that, I quite like the film. Nice location work, Brosnan looks effortlessly confident in it. Jonathan Pryce gloriously chews the scenery. Supporting characters like Kauffman and Stamper are fairly good in small doses. Good opening. Michelle Yeah perfects the Triple X style, rival spy part.
  • A truly dreadful Bond movie. For the first time, I was bored during a Bond film. One crash bang wallop action scene after another accompanied by a loud endless generic Arnold score. I loved Goldeneye but this was Bond at's it's worst. I avoid this one if at all possible.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,009
    I don't see formulaic as being an insult, really. You're disregarding a sizeable chunk of the series by thinking of formula as a negative.

    TND is a very breezy, fun film to watch. It's extremely 90s in comparison with the films either side of it, but it has aged very well.
  • Posts: 1,879
    I don't see formulaic as being an insult, really. You're disregarding a sizeable chunk of the series by thinking of formula as a negative.

    TND is a very breezy, fun film to watch. It's extremely 90s in comparison with the films either side of it, but it has aged very well.

    Yes, well put. I tire of the many comments of how much better GE was and rejuvenated the series and all that (no offense to petergreenhill5 above, just meaning in general). It's as formulaic as anything else along with being about on par with the many other big-budget action films of the day and even repeats many of the situations and action of other films along with those of previous Bond films.
  • edited January 2021 Posts: 4,400
    I watched this again last night, and have to say it's much better than I remembered it to be. At times, I was so entertained that I genuinely thought this was a 5 star film. In the end, cooler heads prevailed and I would comfortably give this ⭐⭐⭐⭐/5.

    tumblr_peyhz3fU5b1s12hlbo2_540.gifv

    Firstly, the pre-title sequence has a brilliant introduction for Bond and some of the imagery is seriously arresting (especially, those sequences in the mountains). However, the film does dip after that. The opening act feels seriously rudimentary and 'nuts and blots.' In that sense, TND is overly formulaic and you can feel it playing the hits to the audience as the filmmakers obligatorily roll of the cliched 'Bond' iconography. It was at this point, I felt I was watching an inessential and minor Bond film.

    Thankfully, this feeling doesn't last long. Soon after, the film finds its groove and it proves to be a riot. I think there is an argument to made that it's Brosnan's most entertaining film. The action is top-notch and - surprisingly - inventive. It's an A+ production in terms of technical contributions, so it hasn't aged much in the last 23 years. However, what makes TND so peculiar is how prescient it is.

    I always thought the villain's scheme was a bit hollow and undramatic. However, over the years and since the News of the World scandal, TND felt more relevant. Nevertheless, if this movie were to come out in 2020, you'd say it was a bit on the nose. You have a villain actually saying that misinformation can mobilise armies, that media will have the power to influence governments, there is a news empire committed to manipulating world events, and - if that isn't enough - the baddie is a preening narcissist obsessed with ratings who puts his face and name on tall buildings.

    This is seriously fascinating texture to a film, which on the surface merely wants to entertain. It's not a didactic film either. There is no essay it's trying to espouse. It's just an interesting wrinkle and rather terrific storytelling conceit.....

    Tomorrow20Never20Dies20282429.jpg

    Pierce Brosnan is better than you remember in this film. In many ways, he is the perfect leading man. He's deft at the more comedic and light movies, but also he has a steely quality. He's damn beautiful, but not merely in a 'pretty boy' way. Brosnan is moody and broods in that 'tall, dark and handsome' manner of his. He's very much the hero of the piece and you can't help but want to be him. When Brosnan saves the day and gets the girl, it's more than convincing.

    I suppose it's a bit of a shame that he doesn't get too many dramatic scenes. But, in this sense, TND is less like a Daniel Craig-era film but more like one of the recent Mission: Impossible movies. Which is no bad thing....In fact, (oddly enough) TND most reminded me of Tenet. It has that film's same muted colour palette, abundance of beautiful costumes and efficient execution (both resembling polished Audi commercials). Though it's much better than Tenet though, mainly as it's a much more sexy and mischievous film with considerably better characters.

    1356c4feaa67b4c67d4ec0b1b201a33fcfcec6bf.gifv

    Which brings me to the supporting performances. Both Michelle Yeoh and Jonathan Pryce are competing for the honour of 'scene stealer.' Throughout I couldn't help thinking how great a team Bond and Wai Lin made. Her presence in the movie is so effective that she seemed a natural to add to the other MI6 regulars. I liked the chemistry between Bond and Wai Lin (all the more convincing because the plot doesn't force it). Also, Pryce knows he has the make the most of the scenes he is in and relishes eating the scenery. Teri Hatcher isn't that bad either.

    The 'Man of the Match Award' is a two-way split between Allan Cameron's modern sets (not dated at all) and David Arnold for that outrageous score. The third act is also pretty darn good (with some genuine stakes!) which makes me more excited to see what NTTD can do with some similar imagery. This film has amazing, convincing real action and its much more fleet-footed and lightheartedly enjoyable outing than it’s really ever given credit for.

    Also, can anyone help me identify whether Sheryl Crow makes a cameo in the title sequence. Is this her?

    f2ca2e02ee9557a9aee2252d4964ca79.jpg
  • Posts: 1,879
    I watched this again last night, and have to say it's much better than I remembered it to be. At times, I was so entertained that I genuinely thought this was a 5 star film. In the end, cooler heads prevailed and I would comfortably give this ⭐⭐⭐⭐/5.

    tumblr_peyhz3fU5b1s12hlbo2_540.gifv

    Firstly, the pre-title sequence has a brilliant introduction for Bond and some of the imagery is seriously arresting (especially, those sequences in the mountains). However, the film does dip after that. The opening act feels seriously rudimentary and 'nuts and blots.' In that sense, TND is overly formulaic and you can feel it playing the hits to the audience as the filmmakers obligatorily roll of the cliched 'Bond' iconography. It was at this point, I felt I was watching an inessential and minor Bond film.

    Thankfully, this feeling doesn't last long. Soon after, the film finds its groove and it proves to be a riot. I think there is an argument to made that it's Brosnan's most entertaining film. The action is top-notch and - surprisingly - inventive. It's an A+ production in terms of technical contributions, so it hasn't aged much in the last 23 years. However, what makes TND so peculiar is how prescient it is.

    I always thought the villain's scheme was a bit hollow and undramatic. However, over the years and since the News of the World scandal, TND felt more relevant. Nevertheless, if this movie were to come out in 2020, you'd say it was a bit on the nose. You have a villain actually saying that misinformation can mobilise armies, that media will have the power to influence governments, there is a news empire committed to manipulating world events, and - if that isn't enough - the baddie is a preening narcissist obsessed with ratings who puts his face and name on tall buildings.

    This is seriously fascinating texture to a film, which on the surface merely wants to entertain. It's not a didactic film either. There is no essay it's trying to espouse. It's just an interesting wrinkle and rather terrific storytelling conceit.....

    Tomorrow20Never20Dies20282429.jpg

    Pierce Brosnan is better than you remember in this film. In many ways, he is the perfect leading man. He's deft at the more comedic and light movies, but also he has a steely quality. He's damn beautiful, but not merely in a 'pretty boy' way. Brosnan is moody and broods in that 'tall, dark and handsome' manner of his. He's very much the hero of the piece and you can't help but want to be him. When Brosnan saves the day and gets the girl, it's more than convincing.

    I suppose it's a bit of a shame that he doesn't get too many dramatic scenes. But, in this sense, TND is less like a Daniel Craig-era film but more like one of the recent Mission: Impossible movies. Which is no bad thing....In fact, (oddly enough) TND most reminded me of Tenet. It has that film's same muted colour palette, abundance of beautiful costumes and efficient execution (both resembling polished Audi commercials). Though it's much better than Tenet though, mainly as it's a much more sexy and mischievous film with considerably better characters.

    1356c4feaa67b4c67d4ec0b1b201a33fcfcec6bf.gifv

    Which brings me to the supporting performances. Both Michelle Yeoh and Jonathan Pryce are competing for the honour of 'scene stealer.' Throughout I couldn't help thinking how great a team Bond and Wai Lin made. Her presence in the movie is so effective that she seemed a natural to add to the other MI6 regulars. I liked the chemistry between Bond and Wai Lin (all the more convincing because the plot doesn't force it). Also, Pryce knows he has the make the most of the scenes he is in and relishes eating the scenery. Teri Hatcher isn't that bad either.

    The 'Man of the Match Award' is a two-way split between Allan Cameron's modern sets (not dated at all) and David Arnold for that outrageous score. The third act is also pretty darn good (with some genuine stakes!) which makes me more excited to see what NTTD can do with some similar imagery. This film has amazing, convincing real action and its much more fleet-footed and lightheartedly enjoyable outing than it’s really ever given credit for.

    Also, can anyone help me identify whether Sheryl Crow makes a cameo in the title sequence. Is this her?

    f2ca2e02ee9557a9aee2252d4964ca79.jpg

    Nice review. TND always seems to get lost in the Brosnan era with everybody busy overpraising GE and appropriately slamming TWINE and DAD. TND has always been my favorite of the Brosnans as it is a fast, exciting adventure that has the least this time it's personal crap that bogs down the other entries. That's what it sets out to do, entertain and thrill and it hits that mark.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited January 2021 Posts: 23,449
    I've always had the feeling that the post-GE Brosnan films struggled with shaking themselves out of the ruts of machine production and avoiding artistic inertia. GE had felt fresh and somewhat risky to me, an upgrade of sorts, while TND seemed formulaic and relying much more on a traditional James Bond checklist than on creativity and innovation. I couldn't help but think that they just weren't trying anymore, that despite GE's overall success, the commercial failure of the more experimental LTK was still looming large over the writing process. Just give audiences what they've always wanted, the motto seemed to be, rather than force them to rethink "their Bond". Whether I'm right or wrong, the fact remains that I wasn't exactly thrilled when I walked out of the theatre in '97. Though only 15 years old, I knew that this rehash of stuff from two decades before wasn't good enough for me anymore.

    And yet, as the years went by I changed my opinion. I came to appreciate TND as a Bond film to "come home to", an indebted clone of the Gilbert Bonds but served well by the perks of modern filmmaking. Its plot may be quite unchallenging and clichéd, but at least it avoids the confusing and pretentious intricacies of TWINE. And while TND certainly does have its moments of wild action and Rambo Bond, at least it never goes Playstation crazy like DAD. Brosnan's quite good in this film and Arnold provides flavours that we hadn't tasted in 10 years (which felt like a lifetime back then.) I like the cast, the jokes, the action and more. It's a solid Bond film.

    Sure, it's a formulaic Bond film too. Then again, few Bond films aren't. But it's only formulaic in concept; the execution is its own thing. And it's a good thing. Also, it breathes "nineties" to me, and today, that's far enough in our past to introduce nostalgia into our discussion. I guess I have fond memories of anticipating the film, of watching Moby's video clip on MTV, of speculating with my pals in school about this film (though few of them were even remotely interested in Bond), of preparing myself for the film with my mom, who shared my enthusiasm and agreed to marathon the entire series on VHS before going to the theatre, a mother-son tradition I've kept alive since. So I guess that while I see the film as imperfect, I always enjoy it as a fun rollercoaster of a Bond.
  • I watched this again last night, and have to say it's much better than I remembered it to be. At times, I was so entertained that I genuinely thought this was a 5 star film. In the end, cooler heads prevailed and I would comfortably give this ⭐⭐⭐⭐/5.

    tumblr_peyhz3fU5b1s12hlbo2_540.gifv

    Firstly, the pre-title sequence has a brilliant introduction for Bond and some of the imagery is seriously arresting (especially, those sequences in the mountains). However, the film does dip after that. The opening act feels seriously rudimentary and 'nuts and blots.' In that sense, TND is overly formulaic and you can feel it playing the hits to the audience as the filmmakers obligatorily roll of the cliched 'Bond' iconography. It was at this point, I felt I was watching an inessential and minor Bond film.

    Thankfully, this feeling doesn't last long. Soon after, the film finds its groove and it proves to be a riot. I think there is an argument to made that it's Brosnan's most entertaining film. The action is top-notch and - surprisingly - inventive. It's an A+ production in terms of technical contributions, so it hasn't aged much in the last 23 years. However, what makes TND so peculiar is how prescient it is.

    I always thought the villain's scheme was a bit hollow and undramatic. However, over the years and since the News of the World scandal, TND felt more relevant. Nevertheless, if this movie were to come out in 2020, you'd say it was a bit on the nose. You have a villain actually saying that misinformation can mobilise armies, that media will have the power to influence governments, there is a news empire committed to manipulating world events, and - if that isn't enough - the baddie is a preening narcissist obsessed with ratings who puts his face and name on tall buildings.

    This is seriously fascinating texture to a film, which on the surface merely wants to entertain. It's not a didactic film either. There is no essay it's trying to espouse. It's just an interesting wrinkle and rather terrific storytelling conceit.....

    Tomorrow20Never20Dies20282429.jpg

    Pierce Brosnan is better than you remember in this film. In many ways, he is the perfect leading man. He's deft at the more comedic and light movies, but also he has a steely quality. He's damn beautiful, but not merely in a 'pretty boy' way. Brosnan is moody and broods in that 'tall, dark and handsome' manner of his. He's very much the hero of the piece and you can't help but want to be him. When Brosnan saves the day and gets the girl, it's more than convincing.

    I suppose it's a bit of a shame that he doesn't get too many dramatic scenes. But, in this sense, TND is less like a Daniel Craig-era film but more like one of the recent Mission: Impossible movies. Which is no bad thing....In fact, (oddly enough) TND most reminded me of Tenet. It has that film's same muted colour palette, abundance of beautiful costumes and efficient execution (both resembling polished Audi commercials). Though it's much better than Tenet though, mainly as it's a much more sexy and mischievous film with considerably better characters.

    1356c4feaa67b4c67d4ec0b1b201a33fcfcec6bf.gifv

    Which brings me to the supporting performances. Both Michelle Yeoh and Jonathan Pryce are competing for the honour of 'scene stealer.' Throughout I couldn't help thinking how great a team Bond and Wai Lin made. Her presence in the movie is so effective that she seemed a natural to add to the other MI6 regulars. I liked the chemistry between Bond and Wai Lin (all the more convincing because the plot doesn't force it). Also, Pryce knows he has the make the most of the scenes he is in and relishes eating the scenery. Teri Hatcher isn't that bad either.

    The 'Man of the Match Award' is a two-way split between Allan Cameron's modern sets (not dated at all) and David Arnold for that outrageous score. The third act is also pretty darn good (with some genuine stakes!) which makes me more excited to see what NTTD can do with some similar imagery. This film has amazing, convincing real action and its much more fleet-footed and lightheartedly enjoyable outing than it’s really ever given credit for.

    Also, can anyone help me identify whether Sheryl Crow makes a cameo in the title sequence. Is this her?

    f2ca2e02ee9557a9aee2252d4964ca79.jpg

    Well said, @Pierce2Daniel!
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,921
    What lets me down with TND every time is the lack of glamour. Hamburg is seriously uninspired and gray. And while I've been to Vietnam, I never feel like Bond is there. (Yes, I realize it's Thailand.)

    I'm not sure I would call TND the most formulaic but I would call it the most paint-by-numbers of all the films.
  • The most formulaic Bond film are the films that Roger Moore starred in. They are, essentially, the same film made seven times in a row. That is NOT an insult, by the way. They are among my favorites of the franchise, in part because the formula is so comfortable. It's like slipping into your favorite pair of old shoes. I don't find TND to be any more formulaic than those films, or YOLT, DAD, or even GE for that matter. But even if it were, I don't see that as a bad thing, necessarily. Many of us enjoy Bond films for the ways they recycle old elements in new ways. But that's just me.
  • edited January 2021 Posts: 4,400
    BT3366 wrote: »
    I watched this again last night, and have to say it's much better than I remembered it to be. At times, I was so entertained that I genuinely thought this was a 5 star film. In the end, cooler heads prevailed and I would comfortably give this ⭐⭐⭐⭐/5.

    tumblr_peyhz3fU5b1s12hlbo2_540.gifv

    Firstly, the pre-title sequence has a brilliant introduction for Bond and some of the imagery is seriously arresting (especially, those sequences in the mountains). However, the film does dip after that. The opening act feels seriously rudimentary and 'nuts and blots.' In that sense, TND is overly formulaic and you can feel it playing the hits to the audience as the filmmakers obligatorily roll of the cliched 'Bond' iconography. It was at this point, I felt I was watching an inessential and minor Bond film.

    Thankfully, this feeling doesn't last long. Soon after, the film finds its groove and it proves to be a riot. I think there is an argument to made that it's Brosnan's most entertaining film. The action is top-notch and - surprisingly - inventive. It's an A+ production in terms of technical contributions, so it hasn't aged much in the last 23 years. However, what makes TND so peculiar is how prescient it is.

    I always thought the villain's scheme was a bit hollow and undramatic. However, over the years and since the News of the World scandal, TND felt more relevant. Nevertheless, if this movie were to come out in 2020, you'd say it was a bit on the nose. You have a villain actually saying that misinformation can mobilise armies, that media will have the power to influence governments, there is a news empire committed to manipulating world events, and - if that isn't enough - the baddie is a preening narcissist obsessed with ratings who puts his face and name on tall buildings.

    This is seriously fascinating texture to a film, which on the surface merely wants to entertain. It's not a didactic film either. There is no essay it's trying to espouse. It's just an interesting wrinkle and rather terrific storytelling conceit.....

    Tomorrow20Never20Dies20282429.jpg

    Pierce Brosnan is better than you remember in this film. In many ways, he is the perfect leading man. He's deft at the more comedic and light movies, but also he has a steely quality. He's damn beautiful, but not merely in a 'pretty boy' way. Brosnan is moody and broods in that 'tall, dark and handsome' manner of his. He's very much the hero of the piece and you can't help but want to be him. When Brosnan saves the day and gets the girl, it's more than convincing.

    I suppose it's a bit of a shame that he doesn't get too many dramatic scenes. But, in this sense, TND is less like a Daniel Craig-era film but more like one of the recent Mission: Impossible movies. Which is no bad thing....In fact, (oddly enough) TND most reminded me of Tenet. It has that film's same muted colour palette, abundance of beautiful costumes and efficient execution (both resembling polished Audi commercials). Though it's much better than Tenet though, mainly as it's a much more sexy and mischievous film with considerably better characters.

    1356c4feaa67b4c67d4ec0b1b201a33fcfcec6bf.gifv

    Which brings me to the supporting performances. Both Michelle Yeoh and Jonathan Pryce are competing for the honour of 'scene stealer.' Throughout I couldn't help thinking how great a team Bond and Wai Lin made. Her presence in the movie is so effective that she seemed a natural to add to the other MI6 regulars. I liked the chemistry between Bond and Wai Lin (all the more convincing because the plot doesn't force it). Also, Pryce knows he has the make the most of the scenes he is in and relishes eating the scenery. Teri Hatcher isn't that bad either.

    The 'Man of the Match Award' is a two-way split between Allan Cameron's modern sets (not dated at all) and David Arnold for that outrageous score. The third act is also pretty darn good (with some genuine stakes!) which makes me more excited to see what NTTD can do with some similar imagery. This film has amazing, convincing real action and its much more fleet-footed and lightheartedly enjoyable outing than it’s really ever given credit for.

    Also, can anyone help me identify whether Sheryl Crow makes a cameo in the title sequence. Is this her?

    f2ca2e02ee9557a9aee2252d4964ca79.jpg

    Nice review. TND always seems to get lost in the Brosnan era with everybody busy overpraising GE and appropriately slamming TWINE and DAD. TND has always been my favorite of the Brosnans as it is a fast, exciting adventure that has the least this time it's personal crap that bogs down the other entries. That's what it sets out to do, entertain and thrill and it hits that mark.

    Thank you! Whilst there is an argument to be had that TND is a retread, I also think it's a great 90's update on a Bond film. It still feels modern, cool and sexy. Whilst, Brosnan is best known for being suave, he's also a terrific action hero. In particular in this clip at 0:00 to 0:43 (helped by Arnold's cool, confident score):



    If I had to knock Brosnan in this film, it would be his fight sequences in the first act. They aren't great. A lot of that criticism has to go to the fight coordinator, but Pierce plays the film fairly straight. He isn't as glib as he became in DAD. I also, think he looks outstanding in the film's costumes. Which again, feel very Tenet inspired.

    Tomorrow-Never-Dies-Blue-Birdseye-Suit.jpg
    pb.jpg

    I also get a kick out of seeing the Aston Martin drive into Somerset House. My office is on Fleet Street, occasionally I walk this route to get to Greggs....

    St+Mary.jpg
  • edited January 2021 Posts: 1,595
    You know what's odd to me. Many Bond fans, myself included, criticize the Brosnan era for playing it too safe and failing to venture out of the "machine" of formula as I believe I saw an above user post.

    So I'm included in this criticism, and yet many of us (myself included) love the Roger Moore Bond films despite the fact that they are unabashedly formulaic, wall-to-wall. It's a strange phenomenon.

    Of course the explanation for this could be a simple one: Moore is a better Bond and so he masks the inadequacies of the films better as a result. Nostalgia. There are many possible factors.

    edit: Also I love TND and I agree that it has aged remarkably well in terms of its thematic preoccupations, not that a Bond film is ever a deep investigation into any societal issues lol.
  • Posts: 1,879
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I've always had the feeling that the post-GE Brosnan films struggled with shaking themselves out of the ruts of machine production and avoiding artistic inertia. GE had felt fresh and somewhat risky to me, an upgrade of sorts, while TND seemed formulaic and relying much more on a traditional James Bond checklist than on creativity and innovation. I couldn't help but think that they just weren't trying anymore, that despite GE's overall success, the commercial failure of the more experimental LTK was still looming large over the writing process. Just give audiences what they've always wanted, the motto seemed to be, rather than force them to rethink "their Bond". Whether I'm right or wrong, the fact remains that I wasn't exactly thrilled when I walked out of the theatre in '97. Though only 15 years old, I knew that this rehash of stuff from two decades before wasn't good enough for me anymore.

    And yet, as the years went by I changed my opinion. I came to appreciate TND as a Bond film to "come home to", an indebted clone of the Gilbert Bonds but served well by the perks of modern filmmaking. Its plot may be quite unchallenging and clichéd, but at least it avoids the confusing and pretentious intricacies of TWINE. And while TND certainly does have its moments of wild action and Rambo Bond, at least it never goes Playstation crazy like DAD. Brosnan's quite good in this film and Arnold provides flavours that we hadn't tasted in 10 years (which felt like a lifetime back then.) I like the cast, the jokes, the action and more. It's a solid Bond film.

    Sure, it's a formulaic Bond film too. Then again, few Bond films aren't. But it's only formulaic in concept; the execution is its own thing. And it's a good thing. Also, it breathes "nineties" to me, and today, that's far enough in our past to introduce nostalgia into our discussion. I guess I have fond memories of anticipating the film, of watching Moby's video clip on MTV, of speculating with my pals in school about this film (though few of them were even remotely interested in Bond), of preparing myself for the film with my mom, who shared my enthusiasm and agreed to marathon the entire series on VHS before going to the theatre, a mother-son tradition I've kept alive since. So I guess that while I see the film as imperfect, I always enjoy it as a fun rollercoaster of a Bond.

    Another great take. I especially enjoyed your sharing your Bond connection with your mom. That's awesome. My family were all big Bond fans as well and shared my obsession with the series over the years and though many have passed, I have great memories.

    I think the formulaic part of TND is why I enjoy it and find it more entertaining. It's a straight-ahead Bond saves the world adventure that makes it a fun ride with a minimum of "this time, it's personal" that has often marred the subsequent films as well as GE.

    Pierce2Daniel, I agree that Bros looks and acts his coolest in TND. And that quick Aston Martin cameo is a perfect example of why it works so well here and not so much in other appearances, keeping it fresh rather than feeling like a token appearance. That's why I appreciate it here more than I did in SF, where I felt like one of the only people who didn't cheer its reveal.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    Interesting article about how TND is the most entertaining Brosnan film and the most overlooked Bond film...
    https://film.avclub.com/tomorrow-never-dies-is-an-underrated-adventure-for-pier-1842655791

    tumblr_pf9scgu22u1s12hlbo2_500.gifv
    tumblr_peyhz3fU5b1s12hlbo2_540.gifv

    Michelle Yeoh really should have been the lead in another Bond flick....

    She's the most underrated Bond girl of all time.

    THIS.
  • chrisisall wrote: »
    Interesting article about how TND is the most entertaining Brosnan film and the most overlooked Bond film...
    https://film.avclub.com/tomorrow-never-dies-is-an-underrated-adventure-for-pier-1842655791

    tumblr_pf9scgu22u1s12hlbo2_500.gifv
    tumblr_peyhz3fU5b1s12hlbo2_540.gifv

    Michelle Yeoh really should have been the lead in another Bond flick....

    She's the most underrated Bond girl of all time.

    THIS.

    Michelle Yeoh was effortlessly cool. She’s the one Bond girl I genuinely could have seen leading her own action movie apart from the main series. Maybe Olga Kurylenko second.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,449
    BT3366 wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I've always had the feeling that the post-GE Brosnan films struggled with shaking themselves out of the ruts of machine production and avoiding artistic inertia. GE had felt fresh and somewhat risky to me, an upgrade of sorts, while TND seemed formulaic and relying much more on a traditional James Bond checklist than on creativity and innovation. I couldn't help but think that they just weren't trying anymore, that despite GE's overall success, the commercial failure of the more experimental LTK was still looming large over the writing process. Just give audiences what they've always wanted, the motto seemed to be, rather than force them to rethink "their Bond". Whether I'm right or wrong, the fact remains that I wasn't exactly thrilled when I walked out of the theatre in '97. Though only 15 years old, I knew that this rehash of stuff from two decades before wasn't good enough for me anymore.

    And yet, as the years went by I changed my opinion. I came to appreciate TND as a Bond film to "come home to", an indebted clone of the Gilbert Bonds but served well by the perks of modern filmmaking. Its plot may be quite unchallenging and clichéd, but at least it avoids the confusing and pretentious intricacies of TWINE. And while TND certainly does have its moments of wild action and Rambo Bond, at least it never goes Playstation crazy like DAD. Brosnan's quite good in this film and Arnold provides flavours that we hadn't tasted in 10 years (which felt like a lifetime back then.) I like the cast, the jokes, the action and more. It's a solid Bond film.

    Sure, it's a formulaic Bond film too. Then again, few Bond films aren't. But it's only formulaic in concept; the execution is its own thing. And it's a good thing. Also, it breathes "nineties" to me, and today, that's far enough in our past to introduce nostalgia into our discussion. I guess I have fond memories of anticipating the film, of watching Moby's video clip on MTV, of speculating with my pals in school about this film (though few of them were even remotely interested in Bond), of preparing myself for the film with my mom, who shared my enthusiasm and agreed to marathon the entire series on VHS before going to the theatre, a mother-son tradition I've kept alive since. So I guess that while I see the film as imperfect, I always enjoy it as a fun rollercoaster of a Bond.

    Another great take. I especially enjoyed your sharing your Bond connection with your mom. That's awesome. My family were all big Bond fans as well and shared my obsession with the series over the years and though many have passed, I have great memories.

    Thank you. :) What can I say? My mom made me a Bond fan by accident, and I made her a huge Bond fan in return.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2021 Posts: 14,861
    Jonathan Pryce has been awarded a knighthood, which is lovely.

    I think he might be only the second Bond villain to be knighted...?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited June 2021 Posts: 17,728
    mtm wrote: »
    Jonathan Pryce has been awarded a knighthood, which is lovely.

    I think he might be only the second Bond villain to be knighted...?

    That's great news. I hadn't heard that yet.

    Yes, I think you're right. The only other Bond villain to receive a knighthood was Sir Christopher Lee back in 2009.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    So two knighted Bonds and two knighted baddies so far- they're even! :D
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,053
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Jonathan Pryce has been awarded a knighthood, which is lovely.

    I think he might be only the second Bond villain to be knighted...?

    That's great news. I hadn't heard that yet.

    Yes, I think you're right. The only other Bond villain to receive a knighthood was Sir Christopher Lee back in 2003.

    It is great news, he’s actually an underrated actor.

    In terms of TND being formulaic, I do think that it (along with YOLT), are stereotypes of what people who know James Bond but haven’t seen them, think that they are. Crazy villains, gadgets and stunts. And World War 3 starting again! That being said, I enjoy them both for this reason.
  • Posts: 14,800
    mtm wrote: »
    Jonathan Pryce has been awarded a knighthood, which is lovely.

    I think he might be only the second Bond villain to be knighted...?

    Chilling, if you think about it.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 17,728
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Jonathan Pryce has been awarded a knighthood, which is lovely.

    I think he might be only the second Bond villain to be knighted...?

    Chilling, if you think about it.

    Though not surprising given that so many of the main Bond villains weren't played by Btitish actors. Therefore, they are ineligible for a knighthood under the UK honours system.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 13,879
    Great to hear about Sir Jonathan Pryce, or should I say, 'Delicious'.
  • edited June 2021 Posts: 1,637
    I enjoy it but avtak is better imo
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    IJust give audiences what they've always wanted, the motto seemed to be...

    You forgot the first rule of mass media...give the people what they want!

    Sorry couldn't resist

This discussion has been closed.