Coronavirus Discussion

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  • NamHongJuNamHongJu Germany
    Posts: 1
    Cigarettes kills 1,2 millions NO-smoker peoples per year according to the WHO, the same same WHO who list less death by COVID (1,1 millions).

    And guess what ? No gouvernement seemed very upset that smoker kill more than 1 millions people per year additional to themself...

    So why the world stop to turn? Normal that 80% of the fundamental liberty of the whole countries population are ridiculed cause 0.01% of the population have died?

    I'm tired to heard that are "pro-freedom" people are selfish. I mean does reduce the freedom of 80% of people for save less than 1% of the isn't selfish? Wan't to save his own life or the one of few peoples (that you know or not), knowing that the big problems of the planet (like polution) are caused by overcrowding of this planet (to much people in it), isn't selfish too?

    There is no only one way to "loose life", there is the medical sens (you died), and the sens where you loose your freedom/pleasure, you are lifeless : an automat : wake up, eat, work, sleep, and that your cycle.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,026
    NamHongJu wrote: »
    Cigarettes kills 1,2 millions NO-smoker peoples per year according to the WHO, the same same WHO who list less death by COVID (1,1 millions).

    And guess what ? No gouvernement seemed very upset that smoker kill more than 1 millions people per year additional to themself...

    So why the world stop to turn? Normal that 80% of the fundamental liberty of the whole countries population are ridiculed cause 0.01% of the population have died?

    I'm tired to heard that are "pro-freedom" people are selfish. I mean does reduce the freedom of 80% of people for save less than 1% of the isn't selfish? Wan't to save his own life or the one of few peoples (that you know or not), knowing that the big problems of the planet (like polution) are caused by overcrowding of this planet (to much people in it), isn't selfish too?

    There is no only one way to "loose life", there is the medical sens (you died), and the sens where you loose your freedom/pleasure, you are lifeless : an automat : wake up, eat, work, sleep, and that your cycle.

    I would really like if people like you stayed at home, even once the virus has been brought under control.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,958
    'One of the key authors of the Western concept of freedom is John Stuart Mill. In “On Liberty,” he wrote that liberty (or freedom) means “doing as we like, subject to such consequences as may follow, without impediment from our fellow creatures, as long as what we do does not harm them even though they should think our conduct foolish, perverse or wrong.”'

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/17/opinion/covid-masks-freedom-democrats.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
  • Posts: 4,599
    I think there are comprisons with the green movement or workers rights/conditions. These campaigns essentially ask people to think vacariously about third parties that they have little to do with. Why should someone give up the cool feeling of having the latest iPhone? And, of course, social and cultural pressure screams at people to buy that latest phone in the same way that some are under social pressure to go down the pub or attend a large wedding. It takes a certain level of intellectual insight and courage to change your personal behavoir/actions for the good of the wider community. And, as we are seeing, some people simply don't have that.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,676
    NamHongJu wrote: »
    Cigarettes kills 1,2 millions NO-smoker peoples per year according to the WHO, the same same WHO who list less death by COVID (1,1 millions).

    And guess what ? No gouvernement seemed very upset that smoker kill more than 1 millions people per year additional to themself...

    So why the world stop to turn? Normal that 80% of the fundamental liberty of the whole countries population are ridiculed cause 0.01% of the population have died?

    I'm tired to heard that are "pro-freedom" people are selfish. I mean does reduce the freedom of 80% of people for save less than 1% of the isn't selfish? Wan't to save his own life or the one of few peoples (that you know or not), knowing that the big problems of the planet (like polution) are caused by overcrowding of this planet (to much people in it), isn't selfish too?

    There is no only one way to "loose life", there is the medical sens (you died), and the sens where you loose your freedom/pleasure, you are lifeless : an automat : wake up, eat, work, sleep, and that your cycle.

    False equivalency and whataboutism. I agree non-smokers must be protected from inhaling the smoke of people generated by the latters' addiction. But there is still an opportunity to simply stay away from it. And just an occasional exposition to cigarette smoke will surely not trigger lung cancer, but an exposition to coronavirus for, say, 15 minutes, may cause a case of CoViD-19.

    By the way, I have been (for all practical purposes) a non-smoker for all of my life, and I don't personally give a ... (insert whichever expletive you feel like) if smoking ist outlawed. But the fact that governments do not curtail smoking (one thing) doesn't mean they are barred from curtailing activities that foster a dangerous infectious disease (quite another thing).

    And yes, I am firmly convinced that restricting the so-called freedoms (see my last posting) of eighty percent of the population (your figure...I'm sure that those who really object are far fewer than half of that, but still) to save the lives of 1 per cent is certainly not just justified, but imperative.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 7,965
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    NamHongJu wrote: »
    Cigarettes kills 1,2 millions NO-smoker peoples per year according to the WHO, the same same WHO who list less death by COVID (1,1 millions).

    And guess what ? No gouvernement seemed very upset that smoker kill more than 1 millions people per year additional to themself...

    So why the world stop to turn? Normal that 80% of the fundamental liberty of the whole countries population are ridiculed cause 0.01% of the population have died?

    I'm tired to heard that are "pro-freedom" people are selfish. I mean does reduce the freedom of 80% of people for save less than 1% of the isn't selfish? Wan't to save his own life or the one of few peoples (that you know or not), knowing that the big problems of the planet (like polution) are caused by overcrowding of this planet (to much people in it), isn't selfish too?

    There is no only one way to "loose life", there is the medical sens (you died), and the sens where you loose your freedom/pleasure, you are lifeless : an automat : wake up, eat, work, sleep, and that your cycle.

    False equivalency and whataboutism. I agree non-smokers must be protected from inhaling the smoke of people generated by the latters' addiction. But there is still an opportunity to simply stay away from it. And just an occasional exposition to cigarette smoke will surely not trigger lung cancer, but an exposition to coronavirus for, say, 15 minutes, may cause a case of CoViD-19.

    By the way, I have been (for all practical purposes) a non-smoker for all of my life, and I don't personally give a ... (insert whichever expletive you feel like) if smoking ist outlawed. But the fact that governments do not curtail smoking (one thing) doesn't mean they are barred from curtailing activities that foster a dangerous infectious disease (quite another thing).

    And yes, I am firmly convinced that restricting the so-called freedoms (see my last posting) of eighty percent of the population (your figure...I'm sure that those who really object are far fewer than half of that, but still) to save the lives of 1 per cent is certainly not just justified, but imperative.

    In addition to this:
    1. Most governments ARE curtailing smoking. By increasing taxes on cigarettes, by anti-smoking campaigs.
    2. 2. Perhaps you are aware that 1 this year isn't over yet and 2. most governments put draconian measures down to protect their population from Covid. Now imagine thay HADN'T locked down. What if there had been NO measures. Those are the numbers you're looking at when (utterly nonsensical) comparing smoking to Covid. For the USA, and ONLY the USA, that number would be about 6 million deaths.
    https://www.healthline.com/health-news/viruses-dont-just-go-away-the-toll-of-reaching-herd-immunity-without-a-covid-19-vaccine
    But yeah, that's worth going to a bar for, isn't it?
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,676
    But yeah, that's worth going to a bar for, isn't it?
    Depends on the drink...or not? Suppose you can get a Vesper...a cocktail to die for?
  • Posts: 1,314
    Why do you accept house arrest, and that people tell you how many you can invite into your own home? You are of course free to accept whatever you like, but I would never let anyone dictate anything of the kind to me.

    In fairness since the beginning of the pandemic you and a few others like you have been consistently wrong, both with your facts and with your judgment. Don’t stop now please....

  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 7,965
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    But yeah, that's worth going to a bar for, isn't it?
    Depends on the drink...or not? Suppose you can get a Vesper...a cocktail to die for?

    However decadent it may sound, in the city I used to live in (until march this year) there is a cocktailbar where they make a special 'Vesper' for me.... as in we deviced it together on the basis of Fleming and I tweaked it to my liking. They do delivery at home too..... alas, not this far away.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited October 2020 Posts: 17,687
    Well, I am immune to this virus. I know I am. I think I even got it early on, and it was like a regular flu to me. So why should I have my freedom to move about freely & not wear a leftist fascist muzzle destroyed? Protecting my fellow man? Like that's my JOB? Listen, if my neighbor or my grandpa, or even my KID gets this thing & dies from it, that's not MY responsibility. Things happen. God's will, & all. I am a free man. Free of responsibility. Free to live without fear. Excuse me now whilst I go clean & check all my guns that keep me safe from the hoards of Anti-fa immigrant rapist Muslims that want me dead.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,526
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Well, I am immune to this virus. I know I am. I think I even got it early on, and it was like a regular flu to me. So why should I have my freedom to move freely & not wear a leftist fascist muzzle destroyed? Protecting my fellow man? Like that's my JOB? Listen, if my neighbor or my grandpa, or even my KID gets this thing & dies from it, that's not MY responsibility. Things happen. God's will, & all. I am a free man. Free of responsibility. Free to live without fear. Excuse me now whilst I go clean & check all my guns that keep me safe from all the hoards of Anti-fa immigrant rapist Muslims that want me dead.

    On the internet, this is good satire, because I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see somebody say this with absolutely no irony at all.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Well, I am immune to this virus. I know I am. I think I even got it early on, and it was like a regular flu to me. So why should I have my freedom to move freely & not wear a leftist fascist muzzle destroyed? Protecting my fellow man? Like that's my JOB? Listen, if my neighbor or my grandpa, or even my KID gets this thing & dies from it, that's not MY responsibility. Things happen. God's will, & all. I am a free man. Free of responsibility. Free to live without fear. Excuse me now whilst I go clean & check all my guns that keep me safe from all the hoards of Anti-fa immigrant rapist Muslims that want me dead.

    On the internet, this is good satire, because I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see somebody say this with absolutely no irony at all.

    Yeah, I think I under-did the ridiculous level here. It *does* sound like something someone might actually say with a straight face.... It's hard to outdo sheer stupidity.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,021
    If anything, this pandemic has pretty much debunked the myth of objectivism/libertarianism/screw everyone/think for yourself mentality. Certain leaders said people in general will be smart enough to do what's right, and that we don't actually need restrictions in order to combat this virus.

    Poppycock.
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    edited October 2020 Posts: 2,541
    Remember when experts like Dr faucci were saying the same thing once and downplaying the virus like most leaders, funny how it works out
    https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/479939-government-health-agency-official-corona-virus-isnt-something-the

    https://mobile.reuters.com/video/watch/idOVC3S6T3Z
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Matt007 wrote: »
    Why do you accept house arrest, and that people tell you how many you can invite into your own home? You are of course free to accept whatever you like, but I would never let anyone dictate anything of the kind to me.

    In fairness since the beginning of the pandemic you and a few others like you have been consistently wrong, both with your facts and with your judgment. Don’t stop now please....

    Which facts are you referring to? Some quotes would be fair. And what others do you mean are like me? How?
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,958
    Remember when experts like Dr faucci were saying the same thing once and downplaying the virus like most leaders, funny how it works out
    https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/479939-government-health-agency-official-corona-virus-isnt-something-the

    https://mobile.reuters.com/video/watch/idOVC3S6T3Z

    Are you saying we shouldn't continue to find out as much as we can about this virus?
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,452
    Remember when experts like Dr faucci were saying the same thing once and downplaying the virus like most leaders, funny how it works out
    https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/479939-government-health-agency-official-corona-virus-isnt-something-the

    https://mobile.reuters.com/video/watch/idOVC3S6T3Z

    Odd, it's almost as if there's room for growing and learning during an unprecedented pandemic and things and guidelines change over time.
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    edited October 2020 Posts: 2,541
    echo wrote: »
    Remember when experts like Dr faucci were saying the same thing once and downplaying the virus like most leaders, funny how it works out
    https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/479939-government-health-agency-official-corona-virus-isnt-something-the

    https://mobile.reuters.com/video/watch/idOVC3S6T3Z

    Are you saying we shouldn't continue to find out as much as we can about this virus?

    Where did i said that?
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,526
    echo wrote: »
    Remember when experts like Dr faucci were saying the same thing once and downplaying the virus like most leaders, funny how it works out
    https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/479939-government-health-agency-official-corona-virus-isnt-something-the

    https://mobile.reuters.com/video/watch/idOVC3S6T3Z

    Are you saying we shouldn't continue to find out as much as we can about this virus?

    Where did i said that?

    You seemed to be implying that Faucci made some kind of scientific error by not knowing everything about the pandemic when it was still in its early stages, when in reality his opinion on the virus was evolving along with the virus.

    The difference is, scientists learn from evidence and adapt their theories as such, while some others prefer to stick to their original ideas and live in the dark.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,026
    Ireland into a six week level five lockdown. Announced tonight, will take effect from midnight on Wednesday. Non-essential retail, gyms, pubs, cafès and restaurants to close (but will be allowed serve takeaway). 5km limit on travelling from your home. Bafflingly, schools will be allowed stay open.
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    edited October 2020 Posts: 554
    Ireland into a six week level five lockdown. Announced tonight, will take effect from midnight on Wednesday. Non-essential retail, gyms, pubs, cafès and restaurants to close (but will be allowed serve takeaway). 5km limit on travelling from your home. Bafflingly, schools will be allowed stay open.
    What with the quality of the current government, I'm genuinely surprised we didn't go into Level 4-And-A-Bit (complete with extra restrictions that aren't enforced. Wait, we'll have those anyway...)
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,526
    .
    Ireland into a six week level five lockdown. Announced tonight, will take effect from midnight on Wednesday. Non-essential retail, gyms, pubs, cafès and restaurants to close (but will be allowed serve takeaway). 5km limit on travelling from your home. Bafflingly, schools will be allowed stay open.
    What with the quality of the current government, I'm genuinely surprised we didn't go into Level 4-And-A-Bit (complete with extra restrictions that aren't enforced. Wait, we'll have those anyway...)

    Just spent 10 seconds trying to wipe your "." off my monitor. :P
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    edited October 2020 Posts: 554
    .
    Ireland into a six week level five lockdown. Announced tonight, will take effect from midnight on Wednesday. Non-essential retail, gyms, pubs, cafès and restaurants to close (but will be allowed serve takeaway). 5km limit on travelling from your home. Bafflingly, schools will be allowed stay open.
    What with the quality of the current government, I'm genuinely surprised we didn't go into Level 4-And-A-Bit (complete with extra restrictions that aren't enforced. Wait, we'll have those anyway...)

    Just spent 10 seconds trying to wipe your "." off my monitor. :P
    There are few worse off than you, @NickTwentyTwo!
  • edited October 2020 Posts: 1,314
    Matt007 wrote: »
    Why do you accept house arrest, and that people tell you how many you can invite into your own home? You are of course free to accept whatever you like, but I would never let anyone dictate anything of the kind to me.

    In fairness since the beginning of the pandemic you and a few others like you have been consistently wrong, both with your facts and with your judgment. Don’t stop now please....

    Which facts are you referring to? Some quotes would be fair. And what others do you mean are like me? How?

    You did just literally say you wouldn't accept temporary curtailment of your normal life or respect scientific advise around distancing. That to me is a way I wouldn't choose to go about life in a pandemic where we know that is an effective way to make a difference to the people who need the most help.

    Theres also pattern of what Ive interpretted as anti-vaxxer stance along with links to rather spurious sources. If this is in any way incorrect, then I apologise and take it back.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,026
    Ireland into a six week level five lockdown. Announced tonight, will take effect from midnight on Wednesday. Non-essential retail, gyms, pubs, cafès and restaurants to close (but will be allowed serve takeaway). 5km limit on travelling from your home. Bafflingly, schools will be allowed stay open.
    What with the quality of the current government, I'm genuinely surprised we didn't go into Level 4-And-A-Bit (complete with extra restrictions that aren't enforced. Wait, we'll have those anyway...)

    It's all stunningly convoluted. Just last week our former leader dramatically undermined the health experts in the country and their recommendations - flash forward seven days and they're all eating humble pie and blaming the public for not following the rules. Admittedly, many aren't, but multiple bad examples have been set.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Matt007 wrote: »
    Matt007 wrote: »
    Why do you accept house arrest, and that people tell you how many you can invite into your own home? You are of course free to accept whatever you like, but I would never let anyone dictate anything of the kind to me.

    In fairness since the beginning of the pandemic you and a few others like you have been consistently wrong, both with your facts and with your judgment. Don’t stop now please....

    Which facts are you referring to? Some quotes would be fair. And what others do you mean are like me? How?

    You did just literally say you wouldn't accept temporary curtailment of your normal life or respect scientific advise around distancing. That to me is a way I wouldn't choose to go about life in a pandemic where we know that is an effective way to make a difference to the people who need the most help.

    Theres also pattern of what Ive interpretted as anti-vaxxer stance along with links to rather spurious sources. If this is in any way incorrect, then I apologise and take it back.

    Yes, you are interpreting things the wrong way. As for the spurious sources, some here have claimed that even though the links have been to government sites , the UN s own web site and that of the WHO.
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    edited October 2020 Posts: 2,541
    echo wrote: »
    Remember when experts like Dr faucci were saying the same thing once and downplaying the virus like most leaders, funny how it works out
    https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/479939-government-health-agency-official-corona-virus-isnt-something-the

    https://mobile.reuters.com/video/watch/idOVC3S6T3Z

    Are you saying we shouldn't continue to find out as much as we can about this virus?

    Where did i said that?

    You seemed to be implying that Faucci made some kind of scientific error by not knowing everything about the pandemic when it was still in its early stages, when in reality his opinion on the virus was evolving along with the virus.

    The difference is, scientists learn from evidence and adapt their theories as such, while some others prefer to stick to their original ideas and live in the dark.

    That's not what i meant, just like faucci certain leaders like Trump was also adapting and making their opinions on the virus but they still get blamed for it.
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