The World War II Discussion Thread.

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  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,670
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @barryt007, regarding your previous post before today's (the one about the Auschwitz bookkeeper): he was only getting a four year sentence in prison for that?! Does it have to do with how old the crimes were or something? Seems like such a ridiculous, lenient sentence, regardless of his age.

    As far as I know there is no limitation law on murder. I'd say it has more to do with how old he was. It all depends on the sentencing law the judge follows. Anyway, he's dead now so it's of little consequence what his sentence was.

    I know it doesn't matter now that he's dead, but still, seems odd to play favorites with such a harsh crime solely because he's older than dirt. Doesn't change what he did. He feasibly could've lived into his 100's and gotten out of jail on a charge involving the Holocaust, of all things. It's wild to me.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 17,923
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @barryt007, regarding your previous post before today's (the one about the Auschwitz bookkeeper): he was only getting a four year sentence in prison for that?! Does it have to do with how old the crimes were or something? Seems like such a ridiculous, lenient sentence, regardless of his age.

    As far as I know there is no limitation law on murder. I'd say it has more to do with how old he was. It all depends on the sentencing law the judge follows. Anyway, he's dead now so it's of little consequence what his sentence was.

    I know it doesn't matter now that he's dead, but still, seems odd to play favorites with such a harsh crime solely because he's older than dirt. Doesn't change what he did. He feasibly could've lived into his 100's and gotten out of jail on a charge involving the Holocaust, of all things. It's wild to me.

    Of course I agree, but they must have had medical reports on his declining health etc. before they made the decision. That would be how it would work under UK law anyhow.
  • Posts: 12,310
    There’s so many more factors involved of course, but the first thing I think of about WWII is Hitler and the Nazis. A truly dark, horrific force that’s hard to fathom it all really happened (it did of course; I’m not a Holocaust denier or anything like that).
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 17,923
    FoxRox wrote: »
    There’s so many more factors involved of course, but the first thing I think of about WWII is Hitler and the Nazis. A truly dark, horrific force that’s hard to fathom it all really happened (it did of course; I’m not a Holocaust denier or anything like that).

    Yes, the millions killed in the Holocaust are surely beyond the bounds of the human imagination. It's unfathomable. A series of crimes unmatched in all history.
  • Posts: 7,653
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    There’s so many more factors involved of course, but the first thing I think of about WWII is Hitler and the Nazis. A truly dark, horrific force that’s hard to fathom it all really happened (it did of course; I’m not a Holocaust denier or anything like that).

    Yes, the millions killed in the Holocaust are surely beyond the bounds of the human imagination. It's unfathomable. A series of crimes unmatched in all history.

    In size perhaps unmatched but there have been many genocides since that time in Yugoslavia, Rwanda come to mind.

    But perhaps before the British who put the Boers in South Afrika in concentration camps in order to kill them, the genocide of the Armenians in 1915 to name a few.

    What surprises me is the ease with which large groups of people get killed and how easy people find excuses for doing so and it is being accepted or denied.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 17,923
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    There’s so many more factors involved of course, but the first thing I think of about WWII is Hitler and the Nazis. A truly dark, horrific force that’s hard to fathom it all really happened (it did of course; I’m not a Holocaust denier or anything like that).

    Yes, the millions killed in the Holocaust are surely beyond the bounds of the human imagination. It's unfathomable. A series of crimes unmatched in all history.

    In size perhaps unmatched but there have been many genocides since that time in Yugoslavia, Rwanda come to mind.

    But perhaps before the British who put the Boers in South Afrika in concentration camps in order to kill them, the genocide of the Armenians in 1915 to name a few.

    What surprises me is the ease with which large groups of people get killed and how easy people find excuses for doing so and it is being accepted or denied.

    Yes, having studied Modern History at university I know genocide is sadly still with us. My point was rather the scale of the Holocaust.
  • Posts: 12,310
    The Rwanda genocide bugs me a lot. I know the US have this image as the police of the world (and there are problems with that of course), but I do believe our country should have intervened in that instance.
  • Posts: 7,653
    The Rwanda genocide bother me as well personally. I worked with refugees from that country. And having seen the scars of machetes on the body one of them after he had a mental breakdown and he hid himself naked in a kitchen cabinet is something I still wake up in a nightmare 20 years later. At the time I did lose faith in human kindness.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    edited March 2018 Posts: 8,776
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @barryt007, regarding your previous post before today's (the one about the Auschwitz bookkeeper): he was only getting a four year sentence in prison for that?! Does it have to do with how old the crimes were or something? Seems like such a ridiculous, lenient sentence, regardless of his age.

    As far as I know there is no limitation law on murder. I'd say it has more to do with how old he was. It all depends on the sentencing law the judge follows. Anyway, he's dead now so it's of little consequence what his sentence was.

    But they could bury him in the jail.

    His obituary was in The Times. I've yet to read it. I don't believe it's common practice to bury dead inmates in the jail. At least not in the UK.

    One may discuss whether four years is enough for someone being found to have been an accessory to murder, even "only" by taking account of the victims and their belonging and even 70+ years after the deed. The important thing is that they pulled it through after all those decades, after enough worse criminals walked free in the fifties and sixties, not least because the law enforcers were likely to once have been Nazis as well at the time and the allied powers didn't care as long as their newly-acquired rocket scientists weren't affected.

    But either way, the death of the accused/defendant/convict, whether during the investigation, the trial in all its instances, or after the verdict has become final, ends everything. Dead is dead, and there is no sense in burying a dead body in jail. In fact, sounds quite superstitious to me.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @barryt007, regarding your previous post before today's (the one about the Auschwitz bookkeeper): he was only getting a four year sentence in prison for that?! Does it have to do with how old the crimes were or something? Seems like such a ridiculous, lenient sentence, regardless of his age.

    Yes,it's exactly how @Dragonpol stated i'm afraid...age does become a factor,which I personally found disgusting,age made things worse for you in the Nazi regime : too young means you cant work - dead..too old means you cant work - dead.

    I just hope he is shoved into a paupers grave,as people were at the time.
  • Posts: 19,339
    This just in from The Independent :

    Former Auschwitz guard charged with accessory to mass murder and genocide .


    German prosecutors have charged a 94-year-old former SS guard at the Auschwitz death camp as an accessory to murder.

    Prosecutors in Stuttgart said the unidentified suspect, a German national born in Serbia, was charged as a juvenile because he was 19 at the time of the alleged offences.

    They say he served as a guard at Auschwitz in late 1942 and early 1943 and estimate 13,335 people were sent to the gas chambers during that time.
    According to prosecutors, the suspect has said via his lawyer he wasn’t aware of the background and aims of what was happening, or of details of the killings.

    The suspect has been charged on the premise that, as a guard, he helped the camp function.

    Earlier this year, another former Auschwitz guard died before he could serve four years in prison for his role as an accessory to murder.
    Oskar Groening, known as the "bookkeeper of Auschwitz," died aged 96.

    The former SS guard did not kill anyone, but counted cash and valuables from victims upon their arrival at the camp.

    It comes after a study released on Holocaust Memorial Day found two-thirds of American millennials could not identify what Auschwitz is.


    Another one locked up.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,061
    You people seem to forget the experiments the Japs did on the Chinese during those same years (already starting in 1937). Somehow it seems that, because that all happened in the tropics, it's less bad or something. And it's not only Chinese, but Indonesians, Koreans, etc. etc. etc. Even Europeans, Americans and Australians.

    @barryt007 thanks for that pilot's story. I'm always impressed to what it still means to those families.
  • Posts: 19,339
    You people seem to forget the experiments the Japs did on the Chinese during those same years (already starting in 1937). Somehow it seems that, because that all happened in the tropics, it's less bad or something. And it's not only Chinese, but Indonesians, Koreans, etc. etc. etc. Even Europeans, Americans and Australians.

    @barryt007 thanks for that pilot's story. I'm always impressed to what it still means to those families.

    No problem Rossy,it cant all be stories of bad tidings luckily eh ?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
  • Posts: 12,506

    I can neither fathom or understand why PC brigade change history in terms of the names of the sides of WW2?
  • Posts: 4,602
    For those interested in WW2 history, this event will be of great interest. Trying to sort out my diary so I can see the practice jump in the UK and then get over to France the next day in time for jump there. Never to be repeated.

    https://www.facebook.com/daksovernormandy2019/
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    RogueAgent wrote: »

    I can neither fathom or understand why PC brigade change history in terms of the names of the sides of WW2?

    What change are you referring to?
  • Posts: 7,653
    RogueAgent wrote: »

    I can neither fathom or understand why PC brigade change history in terms of the names of the sides of WW2?

    What change are you referring to?

    I do not understand that either so far the only changers I have heard of were holocaust deniers.
  • Posts: 12,506
    SaintMark wrote: »
    RogueAgent wrote: »

    I can neither fathom or understand why PC brigade change history in terms of the names of the sides of WW2?

    What change are you referring to?

    I do not understand that either so far the only changers I have heard of were holocaust deniers.

    From Nazi forces to Axis forces? I was only made aware recently on this by my step son.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    RogueAgent wrote: »

    I can neither fathom or understand why PC brigade change history in terms of the names of the sides of WW2?

    What change are you referring to?

    I do not understand that either so far the only changers I have heard of were holocaust deniers.

    From Nazi forces to Axis forces? I was only made aware recently on this by my step son.

    You got it backwards. They were always called the Axis forces. Nazi is a derogatory expression for national socialist. That would only apply to Germany.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited April 2018 Posts: 17,923
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    RogueAgent wrote: »

    I can neither fathom or understand why PC brigade change history in terms of the names of the sides of WW2?

    What change are you referring to?

    I do not understand that either so far the only changers I have heard of were holocaust deniers.

    From Nazi forces to Axis forces? I was only made aware recently on this by my step son.

    You got it backwards. They were always called the Axis forces. Nazi is a derogatory expression for national socialist. That would only apply to Germany.

    Exactly so. Allied and Axis Powers are the proper historical terms. The term came from the Rome-Berlin Axis of 1936. Japan later joined the Axis Powers with the Anti-Comintern Pact of 1936.
  • Posts: 12,506
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    RogueAgent wrote: »

    I can neither fathom or understand why PC brigade change history in terms of the names of the sides of WW2?

    What change are you referring to?

    I do not understand that either so far the only changers I have heard of were holocaust deniers.

    From Nazi forces to Axis forces? I was only made aware recently on this by my step son.

    You got it backwards. They were always called the Axis forces. Nazi is a derogatory expression for national socialist. That would only apply to Germany.

    Exactly so. Allied and Axis Powers are the proper historical terms. The term came from the Rome-Berlin Axis of 1936. Japan later joined the Axis Powers with the Anti-Comintern Pact of 1936.

    Some one needs to tell my old History teacher then! Lol! And movie makers for that matter! Lol! Consider me corrected and humbled.
  • Posts: 617
    FYI: Finland was never a member, by signed treaty, of the Axis powers (Germany, Italy, Japan, Rumania, Hungary, Bulgaria).

    Finland was, in the terminology of international law/relations, a Co-Belligerent of Germany in its conflict with the USSR (only).

    She remained a center-right democracy throughout the war.
  • Posts: 19,339
    CraterGuns wrote: »
    FYI: Finland was never a member, by signed treaty, of the Axis powers (Germany, Italy, Japan, Rumania, Hungary, Bulgaria).

    Finland was, in the terminology of international law/relations, a Co-Belligerent of Germany in its conflict with the USSR (only).

    She remained a center-right democracy throughout the war.

    It's always been Russia with the Fins,they genuinely hate them,and I cant blame them either.
  • edited May 2018 Posts: 19,339
    I've seen this old bag in a documentary about the Holocaust,and she totally believes what she says and CANNOT be swayed.

    Lets hope she dies in jail :

    'Nazi grandma' who 'went on the run to avoid jail' for Holocaust denial has been caught in Germany.

    AAx08ar.img?h=486&w=728&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=748&y=539

    A “Nazi grandma” who apparently went on the run rather than serve a jail sentence for Holocaust denial has been caught and put in a German prison.

    Ursula Haverbeck, 89, had been due to report to prison to start a two-year sentence on May 2, but instead the authorities discovered she had vanished from her home in Vlotho, central Germany.

    Prosecutors ordered police to find her, and the International Auschwitz Committee expressed its hope that hunt for the alleged fugitive was being conducted “with high pressure”.

    The German authorities, however, have now stated that Ms Haverbeck has returned home, and been apprehended and put in jail.

    She will now serve the sentence handed down to her in August 2017 for writing in a far-right German magazine that Auschwitz had been a work camp, rather than the place where Hitler’s Nazis killed more than a million people.

    AAwXUAF.img?h=534&w=728&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=1272&y=670

    Although this is the first time Haverbeck has seen the inside of a jail cell, she had racked up a string of convictions related to Holocaust denial, which is a criminal offence in Germany.

    Her persistent denial of the Holocaust, which claimed the lives of six million Jews, has led the German media to call her "Nazi-Oma (Nazi grandma)”.

    As well as offering vocal support for former SS concentration camp guards, Haverbeck co-founded a now-banned right-wing “education centre” with her late husband Werner Georg Haverbeck, who was an enthusiastic Nazi party member before and during the Second World War.

    In November 2014 she went as far as lodging a police complaint against the Central Council of Jews in Germany, accusing them of “persecution of innocent people” who had denied the Holocaust.

    Until now, however, lengthy appeals and suspended sentences have kept Haverbeck out of prison, despite one despairing magistrate describing the serial Holocaust denier as “a lost cause”.

    That was in November 2015 when she was sentenced to 10 months for Holocaust denial, which is normally prosecuted in Germany under a 1985 law banning incitement to hatred.

    While demonstrating outside the trial of former SS guard Oskar Groening, the bookkeeper of Auschwitz, in April 2015, Haverbeck had been seen on television declaring that “the Holocaust is the biggest and most sustainable lie in history."

    At the resulting trial she claimed that Auschwitz’s status as a death camp was “only a belief”, and challenged the Hamburg court to prove otherwise.

    The exasperated magistrate Bjoern Joensson replied: "It is pointless holding a debate with someone who can't accept any facts.

    "Neither do I have to prove to you that the world is round."

    It was, the magistrate added, “Deplorable that this woman, who is still so active given her age, uses her energy to spread such hair-raising nonsense.”

    But Haverbeck’s far-right supporters still packed the court to applaud her.

    On websites where absurdly anti-Semitic users seriously suggest that Jews worship Satan, Haverbeck is revered as a “courageous fighter for truth” and “German culture”.

    Despite her November 2015 conviction, she again denied the Holocaust in January 2016 when she told an event in Berlin that the Holocaust never happened and there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz. This resulted in a court giving her a six-month prison sentence in October 2017.

    Meanwhile, in September 2016 another court sentenced Haverbeck to eight months in jail for writing a letter to the mayor of Detmold saying that it was “clearly recognisable” that Auschwitz was nothing more than a labour camp.

    She did so as a Detmold court was hearing the trial of former Auschwitz guard Reinhold Hanning, who was found guilty of being an accessory to the murder of 170,000 people.

    Immediately after her September 2016 sentencing hearing, Haverbeck handed out pamphlets to the judge, prosecutor and journalists. The leaflets denied the Holocaust, under the title “Only the truth will set you free”.

    It meant that at the ensuing November 2017 appeal, she had four months shaved off her original eight-month sentence, but 10 months were added because of the post-trial stunt, leaving her facing an increased sentence of 14 months.

    In February of this year she lost her appeal against her August 2017 sentence. A regional court in Celle in the state of Lower Saxony ruled that the judgement by the state court in Verden had been legally sound and should be implemented.

    But when the time came to go to prison, Haverbeck was found to have gone missing, while her post reportedly starting to pile up outside her front door.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,061
    Good she has ended up in jail.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Good she has ended up in jail.

    Definitely,she is a Nazi through and through.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,061
    We used to have one like that in our country as well, called 'Weduwe Rost van Tonningen'( Rost van Tonningen's widow) who was as implied widow of one of the worst Nazi leaders this country had. Her husband was executed after the war, but she Always remained faithful to his way of thinking.
    I did research on a far less famous and less extreme Nazi. I found RvT was still giving him a bad report with the occupiers even after this guy had fled the country in '44. He was a hate-filled person.

    Seems like this woman is exactly the same.
  • Posts: 19,339
    We used to have one like that in our country as well, called 'Weduwe Rost van Tonningen'( Rost van Tonningen's widow) who was as implied widow of one of the worst Nazi leaders this country had. Her husband was executed after the war, but she Always remained faithful to his way of thinking.
    I did research on a far less famous and less extreme Nazi. I found RvT was still giving him a bad report with the occupiers even after this guy had fled the country in '44. He was a hate-filled person.

    Seems like this woman is exactly the same.

    I think we would be surprised if we knew just how many of these people there still are out there.
    Just shows how brain-washed and fanatical they were under the Nazi regime,a perfect example of it in both your case and the one above.
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