Christian Symbolism in Skyfall

TheWizardOfIce

BeatlesSansEarmuffs wrote:

Now that I have completed my series of Bond film reviews over in the “For Original Fans“ thread, I’d like to bring this conversation “back from the dead” if only to serve as the creamy topping to my recent Skyfall review. While I don’t think that the Christian symbolism in Skyfall is by any means the only sub-text in the film, I personally find this subject interesting precisely because religion in general has largely (but not completely) been avoided by the folks at Eon throughout most of their Bond films over all these many decades. In FYEO, Bond appears in a confessional, mouthing the familiar opening phrase, “Forgive me father, for I have sinned.” Q is the fake priest in the other side of the confessional, appearing there to covertly pass some information on to Bond. Peeling off his beard, Q replies, “That’s putting it mildly, 007!” – and the audience laughs. This is largely the role that one of the most potent moving forces in human history (I am speaking of spiritual faith in general, not any particular brand of same) has been given in the Bond films: something to laugh about. In Octopussy, Bond throws money randomly into the crowd in order to impede the progress of the baddies who are chasing him, and the camera focuses on a wad of bills landing in the contribution bowl of some Buddhist monks. The audience laughs; and again, humor is about all that spiritual beliefs are good for in the Bond universe. Suddenly, Skyfall treats the subject with some respect and sophistication…and Bond fandom, by and large, would prefer to ignore even the most passing mention of this supremely important topic. Why is this?

I think it’s because we are generally uncomfortable with the very idea of spiritual faith, perhaps because we’re not really sure HOW we should respond to it. But this film requires that M -- and the audience as a whole -- “THINK ON YOUR SINS.” This time around, we are not alowed to ignore the bull in the confessional. James Bond is a sinner working on the side of the saints. Although he wears the metaphorical white hat, and thinks of himself as a knight in shining armor to any lady in distress, Bond routinely employs the tools of his enemies. He kills people as a condition of his employment; it’s in the job description…and as we all know, “Thou shalt not kill” is one of the biggies, Commandment-wise. Bond drinks, he smokes, he lies, and he has copious amounts of sex outside of the sanctity of marriage. According to conventional notions of morality, Bond would probably be judged a sinner of the first rank. I believe that this is why many of us would prefer not to even consider the strictures of most accepted spiritual beliefs in the world of Bond: he is our hero and we prefer to think of ourselves as good people. How can we make such a sinner our hero? Most of us prefer not to think about our own contradictory impulses, but for yours truly to do so is just another day at the office. So: in my opinion, one of the most interesting -- and surprising!-- subtexts of Skyfall is the treatment of the enduring power of spiritual faith, and Christianity in particular, in that movie. What say the rest of you?

Good to see Bond films ahead of the curve then in treating religion with the respect it deserves long before Dawkins arrived in the scene.

I also think you'll find that in OP the money Bond throws lands in the begging bowl of some random beggar (religion unspecified). If we're going to have a serious discussion then please don't commit the classic crime of the religious and try to twist some perceived 'evidence' just to fit your shaky hypothesis.

As regards your initial post; I think you can read too much into these things. The bible is such an encompassing work that covers so many topics it is possible to find parallels for any subject you care; just as Muslim and Christian fundamentalists twist quotes from the bible to justify blowing up planes or persecuting homosexuals.

For example in LALD we have the virgin, graveyard and death motifs, Bond alone surrounded by beasts a la Daniel in the lions den, I'm pretty sure JW says 'Goddamit' or 'Christ' somewhere along the line, Bond being tied with his arms aloft and dripping blood, Bond undergoing a full body immersion and finally the 'resurrection' of Samedi.

Or how about the extremely poorly scripted DAF? Is the reason it's so awful because Mankiewicz spent most of his time weaving in religious symbolism? Well there's Bond's comment of 'welcome to hell Blofeld', the trinity of Blofelds, Wint & Kidd's comment 'If God had wanted man to fly....', Mrs Whistler hiding the diamonds in a bible, Tiffany saying 'My God', Bond, the ultimate sinner being almost consumed by flames (with religious music in the background). And finally of course the guy at the circus who performs the high fall clearly lands in a Christ like pose and following this Bond's high dive at the end also features him adopt a Christ like pose. Now according to BeatlesSansEarmuffs (re immersion) something happening twice in the same movie is a clear indicator: 'First of all, we have two full-body immersions in water for Bond in the course of the movie -- one in the PTS, and another near the end of the film. Now, one immersion can be meaningless -- but two in the course of one movie?'

At the end of the day it is very easy to try and mould something to fit a theory but reading too deeply into every tiny coincidence.

As regards your latest points regarding morality and Bond being a 'sinner', well, the Vatican horde their ill gotten gains and cover up for paedos whilst all the time professing moral authority. Bond meanwhile kills and watches his soul being eroded in order to protect the rest of us. Remind me who is the sinner again?

When it comes to morality I think I'd agree with Dalts: 'He's a bad lad but he's on the side of good.' Would that one could say something so complimentary about the clergy of all faiths.

Bond has sacrificed his place in heaven (if you believe in such tosh) to protect us and be our saviour. While the moral majority would sneer at his drinking and shagging, it is thanks to Bond giving up the chance of a 'normal life' that allows them to contentedly mow their suburban lawns and raise their 2.4 children in peace, while kidding themselves they are moral by giving the nominal amount to charity and the church that their priest says they need to donate to be assured of their place in 'paradise'.

Ultimately, Bond running down Whitehall doggedly determined to protect Britain is far more spiritually uplifting than anything from a 2000 year old book of fairy tales if you ask me.

chrisisall

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

Bond has sacrificed his place in heaven (if you believe in such tosh) to protect us and be our saviour.

Is that why Tiffany referred to Bond as "Superman"? ;))
And dude, everyone believes in such tosh. Whether it be that God is all powerful, Reagan was a great American President, or margarine is good for you. Believing in tosh is what we do. ;)

Dragonpol

Although I wrote this article, 'Musings on James Bond and Religion' back in 2006, so no Skyfall mentions, I think it is relevant to this thread:

http://thebondologistblog.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/musings-on-james-bond-and-religion.html

TheWizardOfIce

Dragonpol wrote:

Although I wrote this article, 'Musings on James Bond and Religion' back in 2006, so no Skyfall mentions, I think it is relevant to this thread:

http://thebondologistblog.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/musings-on-james-bond-and-religion.html

I find some of your observations here a tad spurious Draggers; the Property of a Lady quote for example. This is not a religious reference in the conventional sense, merely a quote which happens to come from the bible. It could just have easily have come from the Thousand and One Nights or Grimm's Fairy Tales. It is important to make the distinction in these matters between deliberate religious references and what is just the residual by-product of a Christian upbringing of the sort Fleming was exposed to.

Where I am in agreement is with your closing paragraph and it is this that sums up Bond and religion for me. The only real religion in Bond is what comes from being educated and born in an ostensibly Christian country. In the same way we all say 'God' or 'Jesus Christ what a shower of shit' (when,for example, your team gets turned over 3-1 by Hull) without thinking about it in religious terms because it is just an oath that has been passed down to us through history, it is inevitable that from time to time religious references will crop up in Fleming's work.

Fleming and, by extension Bond, would seem to have the nominal religion of the vast majority - just attending church for births, marriages and deaths. It certainly isn't a part of Bond's life and didn't seem at all a part of Fleming's. They seem more wedded to belief in England and the Empire than any guy with a white beard on a cloud. In fact I tend to consider the numerous George and the Dragon references in terms of Englishness rather than anything religious.

Dragonpol

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

Dragonpol wrote:

Although I wrote this article, 'Musings on James Bond and Religion' back in 2006, so no Skyfall mentions, I think it is relevant to this thread:

http://thebondologistblog.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/musings-on-james-bond-and-religion.html

I find some of your observations here a tad spurious Draggers; the Property of a Lady quote for example. This is not a religious reference in the conventional sense, merely a quote which happens to come from the bible. It could just have easily have come from the Thousand and One Nights or Grimm's Fairy Tales. It is important to make the distinction in these matters between deliberate religious references and what is just the residual by-product of a Christian upbringing of the sort Fleming was exposed to.

Where I am in agreement is with your closing paragraph and it is this that sums up Bond and religion for me. The only real religion in Bond is what comes from being educated and born in an ostensibly Christian country. In the same way we all say 'God' or 'Jesus Christ what a shower of shit' (when,for example, your team gets turned over 3-1 by Hull) without thinking about it in religious terms because it is just an oath that has been passed down to us through history, it is inevitable that from time to time religious references will crop up in Fleming's work.

Fleming and, by extension Bond, would seem to have the nominal religion of the vast majority - just attending church for births, marriages and deaths. It certainly isn't a part of Bond's life and didn't seem at all a part of Fleming's. They seem more wedded to belief in England and the Empire than any guy with a white beard on a cloud. In fact I tend to consider the numerous George and the Dragon references in terms of Englishness rather than anything religious.

Well, yes OK, Ice. Please be easy on me as it was one of my earlier pieces of Bond writing and is not a complete piece, hence my use of the word 'Musings...' in the title. As such it was all rather contrived perhaps, although one hopefully grows and improves as a writer over time and it's a subject matter that I'd like to return to on my blog at some future point. Still, glad you read it.

royale65

@Dragonpol - you are evolving as a writer, don't worry. ;-).

I think you're both reading too much into it to be honest - I agree with Wiz; he's put that much more eloquently than I have.

There were 3 immersions in water, btw - getting shot of the train, getting dunked in Scotland and Bond was swimming in Shanghai, just to be ultra perdanctic. :D

Dragonpol

royale65 wrote:

@Dragonpol - you are evolving as a writer, don't worry. ;-).

I think you're both reading too much into it to be honest - I agree with Wiz; he's put that much more eloquently than I have.

There were 3 immersions in water, btw - getting shot of the train, getting dunked in Scotland and Bond was swimming in Shanghai, just to be ultra perdanctic. :D

Oh, glad to hear that, @royale65! Thanks very much!

Thunderfinger

chrisisall wrote:

Bond movies were never meant to be connected to religion in any way.

Except the voodoo theme in LALD of course.

Dragonpol

Thunderfinger wrote:

chrisisall wrote:

Bond movies were never meant to be connected to religion in any way.

Except the voodoo theme in LALD of course.

Quote Function not working properly so I'll put my reply in bold.

Although, as my article above makes the point the Fleming novels and short stories did have religious references in them, and (besides LALD) FYEO and SF both have religious themes running through them, so I don't accept that particular point by @chrisisall.

Thunderfinger

Yes ,I read your article earlier. It was an interesting read, as was the OP here by Beatles.
Although religion, as well as politics, is toned down to have a broader appeal, it is still there.

Dragonpol

Thunderfinger wrote:

Yes ,I read your article earlier. It was an interesting read, as was the OP here by Beatles.
Although religion, as well as politics, is toned down to have a broader appeal, it is still there.

Yes, you've hit the nail on the head there, just as attacks on Russian and Chinese Communism were muted/towned down in the film versions of the books of the same name, so too was those that reference religion, although mostly they have been referencing mild Christianity of some strain or other, as well as perhaps other faiths. The point you raise is a very good one though, @Thunderfinger and I'm glad to hear you enjoyed my article and @BeatlesSansEarmuff's OP.

chrisisall

Thunderfinger wrote:

chrisisall wrote:

Bond movies were never meant to be connected to religion in any way.

Except the voodoo theme in LALD of course.

Hastily chosen words on my part, what I meant was that the Bond movies take no religious stance.

pachazo

chrisisall wrote:

Hastily chosen words on my part, what I meant was that the Bond movies take no religious stance.

I agree. If you look hard enough you can find whatever type of symbolism that you're looking for. There's a great deal of faith involved and so much is open to interpretation. Much like religion itself.

Dragonpol

pachazo wrote:

chrisisall wrote:

Hastily chosen words on my part, what I meant was that the Bond movies take no religious stance.

I agree. If you look hard enough you can find whatever type of symbolism that you're looking for. There's a great deal of faith involved and so much is open to interpretation. Much like religion itself.

Yes, but like John Cox's essay on the YOLT film and its religious subtext, isn't that all just part of the fun of the Bond films? I think it is, but then I write and research on that type of stuff myself, so maybe I'm a tad biased.

pachazo

Dragonpol wrote:

Yes, but like John Cox's essay on the YOLT film and its religious subtext, isn't that all just part of the fun of the Bond films? I think it is, but then I write and research on that type of stuff myself, so maybe I'm a tad biased.

I wasn't trying to rain on your parade @Dragonpol. It is an interesting topic. I was just stating my opinion, that's all.

Ludovico

We should be careful not to confuse Christian symbolism, or more primitively Christian imagery, and Christian worldview and ideology. Does SF have Christian imagery? Absolutely. But is Bond a Christian hero? I don't think so. He does things, either for duty or pleasure, that are considered sinful and immoral for a Christian.

Dragonpol

pachazo wrote:

Dragonpol wrote:

Yes, but like John Cox's essay on the YOLT film and its religious subtext, isn't that all just part of the fun of the Bond films? I think it is, but then I write and research on that type of stuff myself, so maybe I'm a tad biased.

I wasn't trying to rain on your parade @Dragonpol. It is an interesting topic. I was just stating my opinion, that's all.

Oh, I didn't think that for a minute, @pachazo! I value your contributions to the community very much in fact.

Dragonpol

Ludovico wrote:

We should be careful not to confuse Christian symbolism, or more primitively Christian imagery, and Christian worldview and ideology. Does SF have Christian imagery? Absolutely. But is Bond a Christian hero? I don't think so. He does things, either for duty or pleasure, that are considered sinful and immoral for a Christian.

Yes, although in The James Bond Dossier (1965) Kingsley Amis does make reference to Bond's values as being as Christian/Humanist as you could want, though I know that his critical study was largely about the books and didn't dwell very often on the successful film versions.

Ludovico

He may be a Christian in the cultural and colloquial sense, but as someone dabbling in.adultery, pre-marital sex and overall pleasure seeking life, he is no Christian role model. And thus large elements of Christian ideology are pretty much foreign to him.

royale65

Dragonpol wrote:

Oh, glad to hear that, @royale65! Thanks very much!

Sarcasm? Seriously though, I enjoy reading your work; I feared my comment above was patronising.

4EverBonded

Well, I don't think your remark sounded patronizing, @royale65 or @Dragonpol's sarcastic. :)

I am a Christian. I am a lifelong Bond fan. What can I say about the symbolism in Skyfall? Well, for me, I think there is Christian symbolism in Skyfall, sure. But I do not read too much into it, certainly not for having any particular Christian message. The theme of resurrection (which, yes, is the basic foundation of Christianity) is a topic that is interesting to all of mankind, in every culture. Being redeemed, coming back from near death (or death), having the chance to make a new life, etc. Christianity is woven into British history, these past many years, so I don't see the Christian references as jarring or not fitting the story.

I did enjoy Skyfall tremendously, but I was not "hit over the head" so to speak with Christian symbolism to the point where I took extra notice of it while watching the film. But many of the facets presented: loyalty, courage, redemption, getting a second chance at life, endurance, helping/saving others who are in dire circumstances, overcoming impossible odds ... to name a few - those are the beating heart of Skyfall, which mirrors for me personally some of the best elements of England, its people, and also as part of my personal faith.

timmer

Bond is a sinner, but that hardly makes him unique. It simply makes him human. From a Christian perspective Bond needs redemption as we all do. From my Christian-Catholic theological perspective Bond is destined to a purgatory as most of us also are, except for those who have outright embraced evil.
And if you embrace the theology of saints (both those celebrated and recognized and those who fly under the public radar) these souls might also avoid the purgatory, or advance relatively unfettered. The rest of us will do our time in purgatory as nothing impure can enter heaven. Again from my Christian theological perspective,
all souls require a purification. Scales must be balanced. Penance for sins etc. Bond and every other human being that has walked this planet IM humble theological opinion awaits the same fate. Those that have made effort will have opportunity to advance their soul.
Bond is an honorable man. He fights the good fight. He embodies the theological vision of noble soldier, an honorable profession. In a world where biblical evil does hold sway, the honorable soldier can be a noble, good and necessary profession.
On the other hand I don't believe there is purgatory for the likes of DN, GF etc. They have chosen evil. They embrace it. They are consumed by their own vanities.
I believe we all choose our own destiny. When we die we face a perfect judgement based on the path that we have chosen.
Fleming toyed with these notions of dispensation of the soul in DN, when he mused on the fates of both DN and Quarrel, surmising that they both couldn't possibly be destined for the same place.

As flawed human beings go, Bond IMO is a good egg. If you believe in such things, I think his immortal soul is quite salvageable. He makes effort to embrace the "good." He hasn't sold out to the "evil" as many of his vile adversaries appear to have done.

Ludovico

Of course Bond is good, but what he does, or at least a lot of what he does is at best frowned upon by the various Christian Churches, when it is not downright condemned. Bond never had any moral issue with pre-marital and extra-marital sex, as far as we know (and if he ever did, it didn't seem to stop him) . And what is the punishment for unrepentant sinners, regardless of the sin? Those who take pleasure in sin are not threatened by Purgatory (a relatively late invention), but by the flames of Hell. Of course he is not the only or the first hero to do at a personal level immoral or sinful things, according to the Church's teaching. Lancelot and Tristan, to name only them, did exactly this. In Lancelot's case, he was heroic BECAUSE of his adulterous love for Gueneveer. But such characters show that goodness is not, has not been defined and confined by Christian doctrine.

timmer

But there is no sense fussing over Bond's morality. Even those who are resolute in thebelief that Christian teaching is an expression of the divine will, are still capable of the "sinning" and they do so even if they know it is "wrong" because they are human and weak.
Bottom line is we are all sinners. But if you believe in the notion of the Christian God, we all choose our own path and we all face a perfect judgement, so it all gets sorted out, no matter what you might actually believe or not believe.
Again from a theological perspective, purgatory isn't a bad place to be. It does mean you are going to heaven, but there is road to hoe first, and some have a longer hoe than others.
Personally I don't think the "kingdom" is reserved only for the "believers" Purgatory I believe yes, is more a theological doctrine of the Catholic Church, not quite embraced by Protestant faith but still I think all Christians can agree on the notion of a perfect divine judgement and that none of us are qualified to elevate or condemn our fellow man. I consign DN to Hades but only because I believe he's chosen that destiny, but I will allow that it is conceivable that he may have had some sort of epiphany as he was choking to death on clouds of bird dung.
Plato touched on this notion in The Republic, in which he concluded,using the Socratic method, that for a man to be just, he must be all-knowing, therefore actual justice is beyond the competence of mortal man. We are not competent to either condemn or elevate to the heavens our fellow traveller.

00Beast

I believe that @BeatlesSansEarmuffs has very valid reasoning behind his claims- even if Christian symbolism in SkyFall was not an intent of the makers behind the movie, it surely does pop out as if it were intentional. As a Church of Christ attending Christian, I myself really like seeing discussions such as this one! It's a neat thought to think that the makers of the Bond movies would include Christian elements, and I wish we could know for sure if it was intentional or not. Sadly, what with Hollywood and the currently "politically correct" film industries that we have today, I would highly doubt that these Christian elements were intentional. Personally, I wish they were intentional, because what a great way to get someone thinking about The Word if its contents are embedded into a popular movies franchise. I admire your view on this, @BeatlesSansEarmuffs! Well done!

timmer

I'm not sure the Christian imagery in SF is there by design or not. Its hard to say, but either way its not surprising as Christian themes and imagery inform much our western culture, so its bound to pop up, even unintentionally. Sometimes its overt such as in the recently released Prometheus film, where it is clearly done by design. But even here the filmmakers are not necessarily promoting faith, but could just as easily find the themes or imagery compelling in their own right, and thus simply include them to enhance the storytelling.
When you are talking Tolkien or CS Lewis for example though, the Christian theming is by design, but I don't think so with SF, but it does seem to be there.

RC7

00Beast wrote:

I believe that @BeatlesSansEarmuffs has very valid reasoning behind his claims- even if Christian symbolism in SkyFall was not an intent of the makers behind the movie, it surely does pop out as if it were intentional. As a Church of Christ attending Christian, I myself really like seeing discussions such as this one! It's a neat thought to think that the makers of the Bond movies would include Christian elements, and I wish we could know for sure if it was intentional or not. Sadly, what with Hollywood and the currently "politically correct" film industries that we have today, I would highly doubt that these Christian elements were intentional. Personally, I wish they were intentional, because what a great way to get someone thinking about The Word if its contents are embedded into a popular movies franchise. I admire your view on this, @BeatlesSansEarmuffs! Well done!

Sorry to burst your bubble, but 'political correctness' has nothing to do with this. That's me being polite. The general populace aren't obliged to believe works of fiction. In that sense SF and your beliefs are aligned.

TheWizardOfIce

RC7 wrote:

00Beast wrote:

I believe that @BeatlesSansEarmuffs has very valid reasoning behind his claims- even if Christian symbolism in SkyFall was not an intent of the makers behind the movie, it surely does pop out as if it were intentional. As a Church of Christ attending Christian, I myself really like seeing discussions such as this one! It's a neat thought to think that the makers of the Bond movies would include Christian elements, and I wish we could know for sure if it was intentional or not. Sadly, what with Hollywood and the currently "politically correct" film industries that we have today, I would highly doubt that these Christian elements were intentional. Personally, I wish they were intentional, because what a great way to get someone thinking about The Word if its contents are embedded into a popular movies franchise. I admire your view on this, @BeatlesSansEarmuffs! Well done!

Sorry to burst your bubble, but 'political correctness' has nothing to do with this. That's me being polite. The general populace aren't obliged to believe works of fiction. In that sense SF and your beliefs are aligned.

Thank Christ (that's me burning along with DN for blasphemy I presume?) for some sanity at last RC7.

Presume 00Beast would think it similarly 'great' were EON to embed elements of the Koran in their films to get people 'thinking about The Word'? Or is that not so desirable?

00Beast

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

RC7 wrote:

00Beast wrote:

I believe that @BeatlesSansEarmuffs has very valid reasoning behind his claims- even if Christian symbolism in SkyFall was not an intent of the makers behind the movie, it surely does pop out as if it were intentional. As a Church of Christ attending Christian, I myself really like seeing discussions such as this one! It's a neat thought to think that the makers of the Bond movies would include Christian elements, and I wish we could know for sure if it was intentional or not. Sadly, what with Hollywood and the currently "politically correct" film industries that we have today, I would highly doubt that these Christian elements were intentional. Personally, I wish they were intentional, because what a great way to get someone thinking about The Word if its contents are embedded into a popular movies franchise. I admire your view on this, @BeatlesSansEarmuffs! Well done!

Sorry to burst your bubble, but 'political correctness' has nothing to do with this. That's me being polite. The general populace aren't obliged to believe works of fiction. In that sense SF and your beliefs are aligned.

Thank Christ (that's me burning along with DN for blasphemy I presume?) for some sanity at last RC7.

Presume 00Beast would think it similarly 'great' were EON to embed elements of the Koran in their films to get people 'thinking about The Word'? Or is that not so desirable?

Obviously, I realize that if such promotion in movies were allowed, it wouldn't be permissable to have a double standard; no, I would not want elements of the Muslim book embedded into movies. For crying out loud, don't take my words out of context.

RC7

@Wizard has taken nothing out of context.