The Saint (tv series and movies)

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  • Posts: 14,318
    Was Ian Ogilvy's take that successful? From what I understand it was a good effort but not nearly approaching the popularity of the Moore years.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    barryt007 wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I rather liked Simon Dutton myself, far more than Ogilvy. But, the Australian Tom Selleck clone that preceded it was abysmal.

    And agreed. Casting Chris Pratt as Simon Templar is like casting Peter Dinklage as Jack Reacher. A godawful miscasting for the sake of "going against the type," all done wrong. Hiddleston on the other hand is a perfect fit.

    Dutton himself I agree Clark,he was a very good Templar,i should have explained it better as I actually meant the cheap look and French production influence in the series killed it.
    Once again we agree, Bazza.

    Cheap French production influence however still trumped the American effort that followed it seven years later. So, what does that say about us? ;)

    That failed pilot was also an American production, so that was another failed attempt.
    Indeed,it did tbh !!

    Templar is as British as Bond,and putting an American,especially one as boring and charmless as Kilmer was a nightmare scenario.

    I didn't even go to see it,and I love the Saint.
    I do enjoy Kilmer as an actor overall myself. In some of his other work, that is. But, it was the movie in its entirely that was abysmal and the way Simon Templar was handled. Some oversensitive wimp of an effete person which was the farthest that one could get from the source material given how Charteris wrote him. Awful script, bad direction. And to think some critics praised it and favoured it to GoldenEye and Mission: Impossible at the time... a bad taste brigade? :D

    Templar needs to be a tough man of stature. An alpha male gentleman who's sophisticated, enjoys the finer things in life, and is a troubleshooting adventurer. Not a mercenary, not a spy, not a burglar. He needs to look like just stepped out of the 1940s, looking rugged and handsome at the same time, a man you can respect and feel intimidated by. Same way with Bond.

    Nowadays, we lack those kind of actors. So, it'd be preferable to start hiring the type over casting effeminate actors or nightclub bouncers in roles as such. I don't need an Eddie Redmayne or a boy band member playing a hero I looked up to, nor do I need a Tom Hardy or a Jason Statham picking up on it.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Was Ian Ogilvy's take that successful? From what I understand it was a good effort but not nearly approaching the popularity of the Moore years.

    From what I remember it did well and ran for 2 or 3 series..my family loved it !
    barryt007 wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I rather liked Simon Dutton myself, far more than Ogilvy. But, the Australian Tom Selleck clone that preceded it was abysmal.

    And agreed. Casting Chris Pratt as Simon Templar is like casting Peter Dinklage as Jack Reacher. A godawful miscasting for the sake of "going against the type," all done wrong. Hiddleston on the other hand is a perfect fit.

    Dutton himself I agree Clark,he was a very good Templar,i should have explained it better as I actually meant the cheap look and French production influence in the series killed it.
    Once again we agree, Bazza.

    Cheap French production influence however still trumped the American effort that followed it seven years later. So, what does that say about us? ;)

    That failed pilot was also an American production, so that was another failed attempt.
    Indeed,it did tbh !!

    Templar is as British as Bond,and putting an American,especially one as boring and charmless as Kilmer was a nightmare scenario.

    I didn't even go to see it,and I love the Saint.
    I do enjoy Kilmer as an actor overall myself. In some of his other work, that is. But, it was the movie in its entirely that was abysmal and the way Simon Templar was handled. Some oversensitive wimp of an effete person which was the farthest that one could get from the source material given how Charteris wrote him. Awful script, bad direction. And to think some critics praised it and favoured it to GoldenEye and Mission: Impossible at the time... a bad taste brigade? :D

    Templar needs to be a tough man of stature. An alpha male gentleman who's sophisticated, enjoys the finer things in life, and is a troubleshooting adventurer. Not a mercenary, not a spy, not a burglar. He needs to look like just stepped out of the 1940s, looking rugged and handsome at the same time, a man you can respect and feel intimidated by. Same way with Bond.

    Nowadays, we lack those kind of actors. So, it'd be preferable to start hiring the type over casting effeminate actors or nightclub bouncers in roles as such. I don't need an Eddie Redmayne or a boy band member playing a hero I looked up to, nor do I need a Tom Hardy or a Jason Statham picking up on it.

    Exactly.....there needs to be a balance with Templar,between playboy dandy and tough guy.

    That's why I think Hiddleston is the obvious choice,charm wise and physique wise.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Was Ian Ogilvy's take that successful? From what I understand it was a good effort but not nearly approaching the popularity of the Moore years.

    From what I remember it did well and ran for 2 or 3 series..my family loved it !
    barryt007 wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I rather liked Simon Dutton myself, far more than Ogilvy. But, the Australian Tom Selleck clone that preceded it was abysmal.

    And agreed. Casting Chris Pratt as Simon Templar is like casting Peter Dinklage as Jack Reacher. A godawful miscasting for the sake of "going against the type," all done wrong. Hiddleston on the other hand is a perfect fit.

    Dutton himself I agree Clark,he was a very good Templar,i should have explained it better as I actually meant the cheap look and French production influence in the series killed it.
    Once again we agree, Bazza.

    Cheap French production influence however still trumped the American effort that followed it seven years later. So, what does that say about us? ;)

    That failed pilot was also an American production, so that was another failed attempt.
    Indeed,it did tbh !!

    Templar is as British as Bond,and putting an American,especially one as boring and charmless as Kilmer was a nightmare scenario.

    I didn't even go to see it,and I love the Saint.
    I do enjoy Kilmer as an actor overall myself. In some of his other work, that is. But, it was the movie in its entirely that was abysmal and the way Simon Templar was handled. Some oversensitive wimp of an effete person which was the farthest that one could get from the source material given how Charteris wrote him. Awful script, bad direction. And to think some critics praised it and favoured it to GoldenEye and Mission: Impossible at the time... a bad taste brigade? :D

    Templar needs to be a tough man of stature. An alpha male gentleman who's sophisticated, enjoys the finer things in life, and is a troubleshooting adventurer. Not a mercenary, not a spy, not a burglar. He needs to look like just stepped out of the 1940s, looking rugged and handsome at the same time, a man you can respect and feel intimidated by. Same way with Bond.

    Nowadays, we lack those kind of actors. So, it'd be preferable to start hiring the type over casting effeminate actors or nightclub bouncers in roles as such. I don't need an Eddie Redmayne or a boy band member playing a hero I looked up to, nor do I need a Tom Hardy or a Jason Statham picking up on it.
    Exactly.....there needs to be a balance with Templar,between playboy dandy and tough guy.

    That's why I think Hiddleston is the obvious choice,charm wise and physique wise.
    Indeed. Provided... they do go for the obvious choice, however, which they don't. ;)

    Typcasting is a sin in Hollywood, these days.
  • Posts: 19,339
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Was Ian Ogilvy's take that successful? From what I understand it was a good effort but not nearly approaching the popularity of the Moore years.

    From what I remember it did well and ran for 2 or 3 series..my family loved it !
    barryt007 wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I rather liked Simon Dutton myself, far more than Ogilvy. But, the Australian Tom Selleck clone that preceded it was abysmal.

    And agreed. Casting Chris Pratt as Simon Templar is like casting Peter Dinklage as Jack Reacher. A godawful miscasting for the sake of "going against the type," all done wrong. Hiddleston on the other hand is a perfect fit.

    Dutton himself I agree Clark,he was a very good Templar,i should have explained it better as I actually meant the cheap look and French production influence in the series killed it.
    Once again we agree, Bazza.

    Cheap French production influence however still trumped the American effort that followed it seven years later. So, what does that say about us? ;)

    That failed pilot was also an American production, so that was another failed attempt.
    Indeed,it did tbh !!

    Templar is as British as Bond,and putting an American,especially one as boring and charmless as Kilmer was a nightmare scenario.

    I didn't even go to see it,and I love the Saint.
    I do enjoy Kilmer as an actor overall myself. In some of his other work, that is. But, it was the movie in its entirely that was abysmal and the way Simon Templar was handled. Some oversensitive wimp of an effete person which was the farthest that one could get from the source material given how Charteris wrote him. Awful script, bad direction. And to think some critics praised it and favoured it to GoldenEye and Mission: Impossible at the time... a bad taste brigade? :D

    Templar needs to be a tough man of stature. An alpha male gentleman who's sophisticated, enjoys the finer things in life, and is a troubleshooting adventurer. Not a mercenary, not a spy, not a burglar. He needs to look like just stepped out of the 1940s, looking rugged and handsome at the same time, a man you can respect and feel intimidated by. Same way with Bond.

    Nowadays, we lack those kind of actors. So, it'd be preferable to start hiring the type over casting effeminate actors or nightclub bouncers in roles as such. I don't need an Eddie Redmayne or a boy band member playing a hero I looked up to, nor do I need a Tom Hardy or a Jason Statham picking up on it.
    Exactly.....there needs to be a balance with Templar,between playboy dandy and tough guy.

    That's why I think Hiddleston is the obvious choice,charm wise and physique wise.
    Indeed. Provided... they do go for the obvious choice, however, which they don't. ;)

    Typcasting is a sin in Hollywood, these days.

    That's the problem,and that's why these films/productions flop,by trying to be too clever.

    Look at Dr Who for an example of that atm.
  • Posts: 14,318
    Surely Simon Templar should also be a burglar. One can be a burglar and a gentleman. He's a spiritual son of Arsene Lupin after all.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Surely Simon Templar should also be a burglar. One can be a burglar and a gentleman. He's a spiritual son of Arsene Lupin after all.

    And an excellent burglar at that,indeed @Ludovico !!
    He does love his jewellery does our Mr Templar !
  • Posts: 3,333
    Well, I for one think it's about time that 46-year-old Idris Elba be considered for the role of Simon Templar. After all, the guy's name is continually thrust down our throats over his role as 007. Why not The Saint?
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Templar is involved in burglary every now and then, but he’s not necessarily a burglar.
  • Posts: 5,492
    And for the rest of Templar's friends ? Who would you chose to play Patricia Holm, Hoppy Uniatz and Claud Eustace Teal ?
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Bridget Regan for Patricia Holm. She’s definitely got the attitude.

    Inspector Teal would require some comical relief about it considering how he’s got a friendly rivalry of a relationship with Templar... Can’t think of one right now, but here’s bit of an unusual choice: Hugh Laurie?
  • Posts: 7,653
    Templar is involved in burglary every now and then, but he’s not necessarily a burglar.

    Yes is is and was the Robin Hood that robbed the wicked and the criminals.
  • Posts: 7,653
    I would like to see a Saint set in his own times the '30 - '40's instead of a modern day version.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Templar is involved in burglary every now and then, but he’s not necessarily a burglar.
    Yes is is and was the Robin Hood that robbed the wicked and the criminals.
    He did rob corrupt politicians and underworld mob bosses, but he never touched the ordinary people whether rich or poor. He only punished the "ungodly" as I remember. I wouldn't call that a specific burglar.
  • Posts: 7,653
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Templar is involved in burglary every now and then, but he’s not necessarily a burglar.
    Yes is is and was the Robin Hood that robbed the wicked and the criminals.
    He did rob corrupt politicians and underworld mob bosses, but he never touched the ordinary people whether rich or poor. He only punished the "ungodly" as I remember. I wouldn't call that a specific burglar.

    He still stole from the wicked he deemed fit for a visit and was a very accomplished cat burglar as well. There are some early tales in which he deemed wealth enough of a reason to do a visit to its owner.
    He is a burglar even if he steals for the Ungodly and the wicked.
    The Saint was a hero to the masses and a terror for the wicked. Whenever he showed his face people were sure to think he was there for them en hence made the mistake to engage him on his turf. He loved the conman especially if he could trick them.

    A lot of his gentleman ways were in sense borrowed for the early 007 movies, the Saint being a far more quintessential Englishman with a razorsharp sense of humor that was sorely missed by Flemings original hero.
  • edited November 2018 Posts: 3,333
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Was Ian Ogilvy's take that successful? From what I understand it was a good effort but not nearly approaching the popularity of the Moore years.
    From what I recall, Ogilvy was successful in his role and very popular. In the UK it was shown prime-time on a Sunday evening. I believe it did very well on CBS as well in the US. It got cancelled because Lew Grade got into financial trouble after the disastrous B.O. flops of Raise The Titanic, Saturn 3 and The Legend of the Lone Ranger. The TV arm of Grade (ITC Entertainment) was where he'd have to make drastic cuts. Return of the Saint was expensive to make and there was no way Grade was going to lose The Muppet Show, so The Saint was sacrificed. But Ogilvy was the heir apparent to Moore. He's never been rivalled.

    As a side note, was anyone aware that Charteris also created the famous "eight-note theme" tune that has been used throughout the Moore and Ogilvy years?
  • Posts: 7,653
    Yes it can also be heard in the OTR Saint radio shows with the amazing Vincent Price doing the Saint even George Sanders did the Saint on the Radio making it a rather family thing as his brother did several Saint movies early on.
  • Posts: 15,238
    bondsum wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Was Ian Ogilvy's take that successful? From what I understand it was a good effort but not nearly approaching the popularity of the Moore years.
    From what I recall, Ogilvy was successful in his role and very popular. In the UK it was shown prime-time on a Sunday evening. I believe it did very well on CBS as well in the US. It got cancelled because Lew Grade got into financial trouble after the disastrous B.O. flops of Raise The Titanic, Saturn 3 and The Legend of the Lone Ranger. The TV arm of Grade (ITC Entertainment) was where he'd have to make drastic cuts. Return of the Saint was expensive to make and there was no way Grade was going to lose The Muppet Show, so The Saint was sacrificed. But Ogilvy was the heir apparent to Moore. He's never been rivalled.

    As a side note, was anyone aware that Charteris also created the famous "eight-note theme" tune that has been used throughout the Moore and Ogilvy years?

    Ogilvy, next to Roger is my favorite Templar. Suave, dashing and humorous. I thought he was a great Saint. I'd love to get his Saint episodes on DVD or Blu-ray, but they're not available in Region 1.

    I also remember Simon Dutton's version vaguely. His 6 Saint films were released on DVD a few years back. Wouldn't mind seeing those again as well.
  • edited November 2018 Posts: 3,333
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Yes it can also be heard in the OTR Saint radio shows with the amazing Vincent Price doing the Saint even George Sanders did the Saint on the Radio making it a rather family thing as his brother did several Saint movies early on.
    Yes, that's what I think I read somewhere. That Charteris first came up with the theme tune for the radio plays which was then taken on for the TV series. I take it the tune wasn't used in the old movies starring George Sanders or Hayward? Having not seen any of these I don't know the answer.
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Ogilvy, next to Roger is my favorite Templar. Suave, dashing and humorous. I thought he was a great Saint. I'd love to get his Saint episodes on DVD or Blu-ray, but they're not available in Region 1.

    I also remember Simon Dutton's version vaguely. His 6 Saint films were released on DVD a few years back. Wouldn't mind seeing those again as well.
    Yes, I liked Ogilvy as well. Though it's my understanding that none of his episodes where based on any of Charteris' own stories. Possibly because Roger Moore had used them all up during his stint? Whilst, I think Simon Dutton looked great facially, apart from his hideous hairstyle which was even dated back in the Eighties, he was no match for Ogilvy. His series was also saddled with less favourable production values and a far-less glamorous car, a Jensen Interceptor. Oh, and the most godawful theme tune imaginable. Awful, truly awful.
  • Posts: 12,471
    The first time I became aware of the Saint was when Ian Ogilvy was Simon Templar. I liked him a lot. Was never aware in my early years that Roger Moore also played the part.
  • edited November 2018 Posts: 607
    bondsum wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Yes it can also be heard in the OTR Saint radio shows with the amazing Vincent Price doing the Saint even George Sanders did the Saint on the Radio making it a rather family thing as his brother did several Saint movies early on.
    Yes, that's what I think I read somewhere. That Charteris first came up with the theme tune for the radio plays which was then taken on for the TV series. I take it the tune wasn't used in the old movies starring George Sanders or Hayward? Having not seen any of these I don't know the answer.

    Charteris created the theme that is heard in the George Sanders and Hugh Sinclair films, the radio show, and Seasons 5-6 of the Roger Moore TV show (Seasons 1-4 used a different theme by Edwin Astley).

    Just to correct @bondsum -- it was Sanders who appeared in the films and his brother Tom Conway in the radio show (replacing Vincent Price).

    The radio episodes, by the way, used original stories -- none of them written by Charteris or based on his work -- and some of them were devised by actor Dick Powell (Philip Marlowe in MURDER, MY SWEET), who had his own excellent radio program, Richard Diamond: Private Detective.
  • Posts: 7,653
    Actually a small correction George Sanders played the Saint successfully and then he started doing a different but very Saint-like series called the Falcon, which followed the "Saint" pattern so closely that author Charteris sued RKO for plagiarism (Charteris pokes fun at The Falcon in his 1943 novel The Saint Steps In, with a character making a metafictional reference to the Falcon being "a bargain-basement imitation" of The Saint.) As the Falcons role was picked up by Tom Conway who is the real life brother of George Sanders.

    Ton Conway also did a stint as the Saint on old time radio.

    Leslie Charteris did initially tried to start the radio show the Saint and actually there is one show in which he actually voices the Saint. Many early shows were adaptations of published stories, although Charteris wrote several storylines for the series which were novelised as short stories and novellas.

    The Saint radio show was at his most successful in the Vincent Price incarnation, there have been released several boxsets of the Saint radioshows with an extra booklet written by Ian Dickerson as well as a book The Saint on the Radio. A very interesting book for Saintly fans.
  • Posts: 3,333
    Thanks @Escalus5 and @SaintMark for your additional information. I never realised that the "eight-note" theme tune also appeared in the old movies. I still have a personal preference for the expanded version by composer Edwin Astley. You just can't beat those TV Sixties theme tunes. Talking of which, did you know that the composer's eldest daughter Karen Astley married Pete Townshend of The Who?
  • A couple of corrections if I may:

    @SaintMark Leslie never voiced the Saint. The episode I suspect you're thinking of, which was an unaired pilot, featured his good friend Denis Green as Simon.

    @Escalus5 Actually Leslie produced the first two series of the Saint on the radio and many of the episodes were based on his original stories. And he often shared writing credit on some of the scripts.
  • edited December 2018 Posts: 607
    @Escalus5 Actually Leslie produced the first two series of the Saint on the radio and many of the episodes were based on his original stories. And he often shared writing credit on some of the scripts.

    ... on the Edgar Barrier and Brian Aherne radio shows, but have any of those episodes survived?

    I was referring to the Vincent Price / Tom Conway iteration of the program, which people here are far more likely to have heard. To my understanding, Charteris had nothing to do with the program by then (collecting the checks, that's about it).
  • Posts: 7,653
    A couple of corrections if I may:

    @SaintMark Leslie never voiced the Saint. The episode I suspect you're thinking of, which was an unaired pilot, featured his good friend Denis Green as Simon.
    I stand corrected I was referring to the unbroadcast pilot introduced by Leslie Charteris called "The miracle Tea Party"from the 1940 audition as put on the boxset "the Saint Solves the case".

    I was probably thinking of Mickey Spillane playing his own gumshoe Mike Hammer. Thanks Hoppy.

  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited February 2020 Posts: 15,595
    Director Dexter Fletcher (Eddie The Eagle, Rocketman) to direct a big-screen reboot of The Saint for Paramount.

    https://variety.com/2020/film/news/paramount-rocketmans-dexter-fletcher-the-saint-reboot-1203505890/
  • Posts: 9,522
    i loved the film....

    i am the only one who does aren't i

    Director Dexter Fletcher (Eddie The Eagle, Rocketman) to direct a big-screen reboot of The Saint for Paramount.

    https://variety.com/2020/film/news/paramount-rocketmans-dexter-fletcher-the-saint-reboot-1203505890/

    I am looking forward to this as long as its good
  • Posts: 5,830
    Risico007 wrote: »
    i loved the film....

    i am the only one who does aren't i

    Director Dexter Fletcher (Eddie The Eagle, Rocketman) to direct a big-screen reboot of The Saint for Paramount.

    https://variety.com/2020/film/news/paramount-rocketmans-dexter-fletcher-the-saint-reboot-1203505890/

    I am looking forward to this as long as its good

    Cant be any worse than the Val Kilmer film!!
  • Posts: 7,653
    The Val Kilmer film certainly had its moments but was sadly an origin movie something the writer Charteris never really wrote so i felt at times unbalanced.

    I am more of fan of the old B/W movies with George Sanders to name one name, and I do hope we get a period piece instead of a new modern Saint. Even if I enjoyed the last tv attempt.
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