HERE BE SPOILERS - Skyfall Codename Conspiracy

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  • Posts: 4,325
    And it's the same character, just played by different actors - why is that so difficult to understand that some ridiculous theory has to be made up?
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe JK ROFLing
    Posts: 7,148
    @Mendes4Lyfe - Stop pulling desperados. I'm not misunderstanding anything. I know you keep putting your hands up and screaming "It wasn't me! It wasn't me!" but if you actually read what I said, I wasn't asking you to prove the codename theory. I was asking you to provide me with a rundown of what he said (it's unbelievable that you would read it and then forget about it entirely). You weren't able to address my arguments either - sounds much like your beloved fellow in the other thread who was mistreated, except instead of being bashed I'm being showered in red herrings.

    By the way, were the four points that RC7 posted the ones brought up in that thread? If so, then it was as I feared - outlandish, arbitrary interpretations desperately twisted to suit his point, not actual arguments. I'm not surprised he was bashed on. He didn't mention the grave or the Moore's wife being mentioned to have been killed in TSWLM - so as I said, it's cherry picking at its finest.

    The bit you are missing is the NUANCE. Neither I nor the original poster ever ever ever claimed that the codename theory was correct. You keep mischaracterising us that way. What he said, and I found to be valid was that the current arguments used to dismiss it were insufficent. That is all that was claimed. Everything else, you've made up. You have allocated us a position that we never agreed to and then used our hesitance and refusal to defend such a position as grounds, once again, to dismiss the theory wholesale.
  • Posts: 4,325
    Well this has brightened up my lunch hour :) What entertainment!
  • RC7RC7
    edited April 2016 Posts: 10,432
    @Mendes4Lyfe - Stop pulling desperados. I'm not misunderstanding anything. I know you keep putting your hands up and screaming "It wasn't me! It wasn't me!" but if you actually read what I said, I wasn't asking you to prove the codename theory. I was asking you to provide me with a rundown of what he said (it's unbelievable that you would read it and then forget about it entirely). You weren't able to address my arguments either - sounds much like your beloved fellow in the other thread who was mistreated, except instead of being bashed I'm being showered in red herrings.

    By the way, were the four points that RC7 posted the ones brought up in that thread? If so, then it was as I feared - outlandish, arbitrary interpretations desperately twisted to suit his point, not actual arguments. I'm not surprised he was bashed on. He didn't mention the grave or the Moore's wife being mentioned to have been killed in TSWLM - so as I said, it's cherry picking at its finest.

    The bit you are missing is the NUANCE. Neither I nor the original poster ever ever ever claimed that the codename theory was correct. You keep mischaracterising us that way. What he said, and I found to be valid was that the current arguments used to dismiss it were insufficent. That is all that was claimed. Everything else, you've made up. You have allocated us a position that we never agreed to and then used our hesitance and refusal to defend such a position as grounds, once again, to dismiss the theory wholesale.

    You can reply to my previous post any time you like. I'll post again below.

    These are the arguments that you suggest cannot be disproved.

    1) The LTK 'he was married once'. This one's easy, lots of people have been married once - no suggestion of Tracy.

    It's a reference to Tracy. The film makers are very explicit about that and if @ColonelSun is around, I'm sure he won't mind backing that up. (He worked on LTK FYI)

    2) FYEO PTS. Actually I think this bolsters the codename theory. Many have remarked how jovial Bond is when turning the tables on Blofeld. Would the 'Tracy' Bond be so flippant about taking revenge? I don't think so.
    Laying flowers at the grave of the wife of an old colleague is not so unusual.


    It's Tracy's grave. It's yet another instance of reiterating the link between eras, see. TSWLM beforehand.

    OHMSS reminiscing over past trophies. Again no contradiction - these are mementos left by his predecessor. Perhaps he even told the new 007 of his past adventures, or these trophies simply evoke imaginings of the adventures his predecessor had.

    Again, specifically inserted to show that Connery and Lazenby are the very same character. An active decision by Hunt and the producers.

    These are all proactive decisions by the writers/producers/directors to establish there is one James Bond.

    That's all three debunked, so you can rest easy in the knowledge that in this case the facts outweigh the theory 3-0.
  • NicNacNicNac Moderator
    Posts: 7,106
    Surely the point is, regardless of any clues, any evidence to the contrary, non of the Broccoli family, no one at Eon, no one minutely involved with the Bond franchise has ever intended the films to be linked to the codename idea.

    In which case, the codename theory is just a fan theory. Whether it can be dismissed or not, it isn't what they ever intended. Bond has always been one man.

  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    @Mendes4Lyfe - The bit you're missing is the comprehension. Nowhere did I tell you to prove the codename theory. NOWHERE.

    Instead of waving your white feather, just listen to me. I was asking you to reiterate or at least paraphrase what the other guy said. I didn't tell you to prove the codename theory, I didn't tell you to do anything except tell me what the other person is.
    You have allocated us a position that we never agreed to and then used our hesitance and refusal to defend such a position as grounds, once again, to dismiss the theory wholesale.

    At the moment, the only thing I've allocated you is the title "huge, spectacular waste of time". You keep telling me that I'm not listening to you, yet you refuse to listen to me. You haven't even heard anything I've said, as I can tell from you repeating yourself over and over again.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited April 2016 Posts: 9,117

    The bit you are missing is the NUANCE. Neither I nor the original poster ever ever ever claimed that the codename theory was correct. You keep mischaracterising us that way. What he said, and I found to be valid was that the current arguments used to dismiss it were insufficent. That is all that was claimed. Everything else, you've made up. You have allocated us a position that we never agreed to and then used our hesitance and refusal to defend such a position as grounds, once again, to dismiss the theory wholesale.

    Fair enough but you were the one who stated this:
    Codename theory is just too substantial to be completely false. I wish I could dismiss it, but the evidence is right there.

    That statement says quite explicitly that you consider that there is more than sufficient evidence out there to have convinced you that the theory has some credibility.

    There have been numerous requests from members for you to set out the 'evidence' that led you to this position and we are still waiting.

    If you can show me a smoking gun of a memo between Cubby and Harry outlining it then present it and I'm prepared to admit I was wrong.

    But if the points @RC7 outlines above are the spine of your case then I think you are somewhat misguided/mad.

    As far as I am aware this idiotic notion was utilised in CR67, possibly briefly entertained as an explanation for the change from Sean to Laz (as was plastic surgery - why are you not propogating this as just as credible a theory for why each Bond changes his face? Theres as much evidence as after all they never say Bond hasnt had plastic surgery) then dismissed as bullshit. It was resurrected by clown Tamahori (with the notion of an old Sean popping up to talk to Broz) but was shut down by EON as clearly being utter shite. And thats it. Thats all the evidence! A shit film with no link to EON, possibly a brainstorming session in 1968 and the insane spewings of a man who had no clue what he was talking about and nearly sank the series.

    If you call that substantial I'd hate to be a suspect for a trial you're on the jury for as you'd send down anyone who happened to be within 100 square miles of the murder scene 30 years before the crime was committed.

    We arent dismissing this out of hand merely because we dont want it to be true. We're not the religious pretending to ignore facts to preserve our fairy tale.

    None of us are denying the slide whistle, the double take pigeon, the CGI tsunami and stepbrothergate because they are incontrovertibly true. They are shit and I'd like them all not to be true but we admit it because we cant do anything but admit it. So why would we not admit the same about the codename theory? Yes its true but we all think its a shit idea? Why would there be a big conspiracy to deny it? To protect EON's reputation for making shit calls from time to time?

    The reason no one entertains the idea is that there is no EVIDENCE for it.

    Well I say that. According to you there is so as I already said: we're all on tenterhooks waiting for you to reveal your scoop.

    Or is there a superinjunction out that stops you?
  • Posts: 4,325
    This is getting boring ....
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe JK ROFLing
    Posts: 7,148
    RC7 wrote: »
    @Mendes4Lyfe - Stop pulling desperados. I'm not misunderstanding anything. I know you keep putting your hands up and screaming "It wasn't me! It wasn't me!" but if you actually read what I said, I wasn't asking you to prove the codename theory. I was asking you to provide me with a rundown of what he said (it's unbelievable that you would read it and then forget about it entirely). You weren't able to address my arguments either - sounds much like your beloved fellow in the other thread who was mistreated, except instead of being bashed I'm being showered in red herrings.

    By the way, were the four points that RC7 posted the ones brought up in that thread? If so, then it was as I feared - outlandish, arbitrary interpretations desperately twisted to suit his point, not actual arguments. I'm not surprised he was bashed on. He didn't mention the grave or the Moore's wife being mentioned to have been killed in TSWLM - so as I said, it's cherry picking at its finest.

    The bit you are missing is the NUANCE. Neither I nor the original poster ever ever ever claimed that the codename theory was correct. You keep mischaracterising us that way. What he said, and I found to be valid was that the current arguments used to dismiss it were insufficent. That is all that was claimed. Everything else, you've made up. You have allocated us a position that we never agreed to and then used our hesitance and refusal to defend such a position as grounds, once again, to dismiss the theory wholesale.

    You can reply to my previous post any time you like. I'll post again below.

    These are the arguments that you suggest cannot be disproved.

    1) The LTK 'he was married once'. This one's easy, lots of people have been married once - no suggestion of Tracy.

    It's a reference to Tracy. The film makers are very explicit about that and if @ColonelSun is around, I'm sure he won't mind backing that up. (He worked on LTK FYI)

    2) FYEO PTS. Actually I think this bolsters the codename theory. Many have remarked how jovial Bond is when turning the tables on Blofeld. Would the 'Tracy' Bond be so flippant about taking revenge? I don't think so.
    Laying flowers at the grave of the wife of an old colleague is not so unusual.


    It's Tracy's grave. It's yet another instance of reiterating the link between eras, see. TSWLM beforehand.

    OHMSS reminiscing over past trophies. Again no contradiction - these are mementos left by his predecessor. Perhaps he even told the new 007 of his past adventures, or these trophies simply evoke imaginings of the adventures his predecessor had.

    Again, specifically inserted to show that Connery and Lazenby are the very same character. An active decision by Hunt and the producers.

    These are all proactive decisions by the writers/producers/directors to establish there is one James Bond.

    That's all three debunked, so you can rest easy in the knowledge that in this case the facts outweigh the theory 3-0.

    If you would have taken the time to actual read the above posts, nowhere did I posit or even suggest that these arguments "cannot be disproved". What I actually said was that the poster had brought up points that should not be disregarded offhand. This is what's known as a false equivalence.

    Having said that, I will do my best to play devils advocate, if you insist I must.

    1) Where IN THE FILM , does it explicitly state that they are taking about Tracy? You merely stating it's a reference to Tracy means nothing.

    2) Again, you merely stating that It's Tracy's Grave and therefore this Bond and the Bond that Tracy married are one of the same is just your assumption. If Moore had said "my wife" at any point, then it would be definitive.

    3) If you want to talk about "proactive decisions by the writers", then surely you must also concede that Blofeld not recognizing Lazenby's Bond is also a proactive decision by the writers? What about Bond being fluent in Japanese in YOLT, then not comprehending the figures on Wai Lin's computer keyboard in TND? You can't have your cake and eat it, I'm afraid. Either you accept the choices the writers make, or you don't. You can't keep the ones you like and ignore the ones you don't.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    Except Moore's wife did die, as stated in TSWLM.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    edited April 2016 Posts: 4,116
    I've had enough ~X( ..this codename theory is about the most idiotic thing I've heard awhile.

    Does anyone really think EoN decided to cook up some codename plan to alienate fans and destroy their livelihood?

    EoN hasn't seemed to even have a clear plan for Craig's Bond reboot much less any absurd codename plan.

  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe JK ROFLing
    Posts: 7,148
    Except Moore's wife did die, as stated in TSWLM.

    But does he mention her name? At all? No? Not conclusive then.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited April 2016 Posts: 23,883
    So are we suggesting that there are a number of James Bond 007's (Moore's iteration, Dalton's iteration) whose wives have died? That's more than a little coincidental in my opinion.

    Moreover, I think 'Teresa' (not even Tracy...but the more formal and original name) is on the grave tombstone in FYEO.

    I think 'codename' has been soundly debunked.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    bondjames wrote: »
    So are we suggesting that there are a number of James Bond 007's (Moore's iteration, Dalton's iteration) whose wives have died? That's more than a little coincidental in my opinion.

    Moreover, I think 'Teresa' (not even Tracy...but the more formal and original name) is on the grave tombstone in FYEO.

    I think 'codename' has been soundly debunked.

    Perfect. Thank you.

    ....unless "Tracy" is a codename for a bunch of dead wives. :-?
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    edited April 2016 Posts: 1,984
    Nobody's addressed the grave argument yet.

    The idea of multiple Bonds having dead wives and being sensitive whenever that subject is brought up is more than a coincidence, lol.

    Also, in OHMSS, it says "Teresa Bond" and mentions her death date is 1969, with the caption "We have all the time in the world". Are you now telling me that there's another Teresa Bond that Roger Moore married and then died in the same year as Lazenby's? And that he magically also used those same words "we have all the time in the world"?

    And if it wasn't Moore's wife, why would he pay respects to her? You can't really say they're colleagues, since Lazenby's version left the "James Bond" codename in 1969, and Moore's version didn't become "James Bond" until 1973.

    Also, Brosnan's Bond was around nine years before GE, which would've been 1986 (between Moore and Dalton's time). Are you saying that there's multiple Bonds floating around at the same time?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited April 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Which brings me to another point. What about 'The World Is Not Enough' also being Brosnan Bond's family motto?

    Another 'coincidence'. Unless one argues that this is also part of his cover (like Universal Exports), but then I wouldn't think he would be so nonchalant or even care about staying 'in cover' when his neck was about to be snapped, as it was in TWINE.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    @bondjames - The motto is "The World Is Not Enough", but that's another extremely valid point. Both Lazenby and Brosnan have the same family motto.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    My mistake @ForYourEyesOnly. Fixed it above.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,432
    Nobody's addressed the grave argument yet.

    The idea of multiple Bonds having dead wives and being sensitive whenever that subject is brought up is more than a coincidence, lol.

    Also, in OHMSS, it says "Teresa Bond" and mentions her death date is 1969, with the caption "We have all the time in the world". Are you now telling me that there's another Teresa Bond that Roger Moore married and then died in the same year as Lazenby's? And that he magically also used those same words "we have all the time in the world"?

    What @Mendes4lyfe is advocating is the notion that Roger Moore 'Bond' is visiting the grave of his predecessor, Lazenby 'Bond's' wife. Don't know about you, but whenever I'm hired for a job the first thing I do is acquaint myself with the personal life of my predecessor and proceed to leave flowers for their deceased relatives and spouses.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    edited April 2016 Posts: 1,984
    @RC7 - Not even the predecessor - two predecessors ago. And of course, Moore would be regularly paying visits to Lazenby's wife's tomb, even in 1981, which is a full 12 years after her death. Yes, of course you'd do that for a workmate you never even met.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,432
    @RC7 - Not even the predecessor - two predecessors ago.

    Either way, I always leave flowers.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    @RC7 - And visit the graves for 12 years.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,090
    We might as well turn this thread into a discussion of the legitimacy of actual flying pigs.
  • Posts: 4,325
    @bondjames - The motto is "The World Is Not Enough", but that's another extremely valid point. Both Lazenby and Brosnan have the same family motto.

    That was Alexander the Great's family motto - maybe his code name was James Bond?
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,432
    @RC7 - And visit the graves for 12 years.

    We all would. It makes too much sense. The current arguments provide insufficient evidence imo.
  • Posts: 10,867
    Perhaps when chosen to be the new James Bond, MI6 kill your wife etc
    so you will have a similar story to all the other James Bonds :D
  • Posts: 4,325
    Maybe there's a James Bond training school where you drink vodka martinis shaken not stirred.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 3,679
    The whole code name thing is interesting and I once bounced around the idea that Eon could work with that, moving forward, IF they wanted to. BUT...

    Code name dismisses and destroys two very important Bond characteristics...

    1. The introduction of "Bond...James Bond"
    2. The preference for a martini, shaken not stirred.

    It simply doesn't work.
  • Posts: 10,867
    Yes, I think that's just as valid an idea and there's as much evidence
    For it as the codename ! :D
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    In theory this thread ought to be closed but its getting so surreal and hilarious that I think we're all enjoying it too much so please dont mods.

    Thing is its not even reserved to a change of actor. FRWL Bond who has been to Tokyo is obviously different to YOLT Bond who hasnt (and incidentally prefers his martinis stirred not shaken).

    I guess that explains why Sean's first two are very Fleming-esque portrayals and from GF on he plays more movie Bond.And now the comment in DAF about Sean being on holiday makes sense too. He took a few years out to go backpacking so they brought Laz in on secondment.

    Its all coming together now. Thanks @Mendes4lyfe for opening my eyes.

    Anyway I can t spend all day here I've got to call HR at the office and get a list of every person who has ever worked for my company that I never met and then spend the rest of my life driving up and down the country visiting the graves of their dead relatives.
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