The Future of Sex in the Bond films

edited April 18 in Bond 26 & Beyond Posts: 1,586
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  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,735
    There is very little nudity in the Bond movies, especially for the late 60s and 70s and even 80s. So nudity can't be the problem. I think the only nipple (and that's a "secondary" sex charasteristic!) we see (briefly) is in FYEO. Everything else is really in the viewer's mind.

    There is no really "naughty bit" in the franchise, I think. There are innuendoes and groaners and wordplays on this, no doubt, but hell...no Bond movie was rated worse than "12" over here except for occasional violence.

    No Bond movie has more explicit sex or nudity than even 1970s public TV shows in Germany. So I'm not uncomfortable with that. Objectifying beautiful women? Yes, there may be a point. But apart from the fact that the actresses were doubtless aware of that, isn't showing Daniel Craig rising from the ocean in his swim shorts also a kind of objectification?

    It's fine as it is.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited May 2023 Posts: 2,948
    In Dan's run, the failure to include nude scenes with Eva Green, Caterina Murino, Gemma Arterton, Olga Kurylenko, Berenice Marlohe, Stephanie Sigman and Monica Bellucci was something of an oversight, I feel. It just seems such a waste... ;)
  • edited April 18 Posts: 1,586
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  • Posts: 3,088
    In itself, no there's nothing wrong with sex in the Bond films. That's to say I don't there's too much or too little. As mentioned there's no issue with nudity and even the type of sex Bond has, while casual, is relatively 'vanilla' by most standards.

    I don't think the sex is what some people have a problem with when it comes to Bond films/Bond girls. Maybe that's another discussion though.
  • edited April 18 Posts: 1,586
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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2023 Posts: 15,150
    I think there's little that's actually properly sexy in Bond films. I'd say Bond and Solange in Bond's villa in CR feel like they're generating some actual heat, and maybe Bond and Lucia in Spectre funnily enough start to feel quite steamy.

    I'm not sure what the perceived 'problem' is with it, but generally the sex scenes (that they are) are often amongst the least interesting parts of the film.

    There's only one Bond film which actually depicts Bond in the act itself; we always see him either pre or post-coital in the other films, but funnily enough DAD is the only time we actually see it all going on. And even more surprisingly this never seems to get mentioned anywhere.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,698
    mtm wrote: »
    I think there's little that's actually properly sexy in Bond films. I'd say Bond and Solange in Bond's villa in CR feel like they're generating some actual heat, and maybe Bond and Lucia in Spectre funnily enough start to feel quite steamy.

    I'm not sure what the perceived 'problem' is with it, but generally the sex scenes (that they are) are often amongst the least interesting parts of the film.

    There's only one Bond film which actually depicts Bond in the act itself; we always see him either pre or post-coital in the other films, but funnily enough DAD is the only time we actually see it all going on. And even more surprisingly this never seems to get mentioned anywhere.

    He'd doing the deed in NSNA....
  • edited April 18 Posts: 1,586
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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,698
    New Bond movies can have CGI semi-visible penetration shots and still be rated PG-13 since they aren't real. Brave new bloody world.
  • Posts: 15,870
    I want Bond to chase girls and get laid.
    Although I don't think we need explicit sex scenes in the series. What we see in NSNA is enough, IMO.
  • Posts: 1,017
    It's interesting that we had the only view of Bond 'on the job' in Die Another Day in 2002, and only the year before we had the most explicit sex scene ever in a Bond novel, in Benson's Never Dream of Dying, (which didn't work for me at all).
    Coincidence, or was that what people expected back then?
  • Posts: 7,506
    What people find controversial is quite obviously the objectifying of women. But, as you imply in your question, the line between what qualifies as objectifying or indeed sexism or misoginy will be subjective. It's no doubt that a lot the harshest critique of Bond comes from people who don't actually watch the films, and their dissent will often be based on a perceived myth of how women are portrayed in the films.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2023 Posts: 15,150
    chrisisall wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think there's little that's actually properly sexy in Bond films. I'd say Bond and Solange in Bond's villa in CR feel like they're generating some actual heat, and maybe Bond and Lucia in Spectre funnily enough start to feel quite steamy.

    I'm not sure what the perceived 'problem' is with it, but generally the sex scenes (that they are) are often amongst the least interesting parts of the film.

    There's only one Bond film which actually depicts Bond in the act itself; we always see him either pre or post-coital in the other films, but funnily enough DAD is the only time we actually see it all going on. And even more surprisingly this never seems to get mentioned anywhere.

    He'd doing the deed in NSNA....

    Is that with dungaree lady? I thought they were just rolling about- I’ll have to have another look.
    CrabKey wrote: »

    If it's not the nudity, because there really isn't any. And it's not the sex. Why, as many have speculated in various discussions, will Bond 26 need to be different? Why will the film have to reflect a new attitude or sensibility?

    Who has said this? What have they said? If someone has said this then you’d need to ask them specifically what they mean, I think. Are you talking about sex scenes specifically?

    I think jobo probably has the right answer that it’s not about sex or ‘naughty bits’, just the portrayal of women which needs to get a bit more grown-up. NTTD was getting there, although I’m not sure Nomi wasn’t just an attempt to write a strong woman ‘so we’ll just write her as a man’. Not really the same thing. Also she’s entirely superfluous to the film, which isn’t great. Madeline is written pretty well though, I’d say.
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Not a red herring
    Posts: 567
    I agree that the criticism is more about character and whether they exist purely for Bond to have sex with, rather than just the sex itself. I certainly don't think younger generations are more prudish. I must say, the number of films and tv shows I've seen recently with far more explicit and gratuitous sex than any Bond film, a little bit of prudishness might not be a bad thing. Maybe Bond could be a trendsetter in this area.
  • Posts: 3,088
    CrabKey wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    In itself, no there's nothing wrong with sex in the Bond films. That's to say I don't there's too much or too little. As mentioned there's no issue with nudity and even the type of sex Bond has, while casual, is relatively 'vanilla' by most standards.

    I don't think the sex is what some people have a problem with when it comes to Bond films/Bond girls. Maybe that's another discussion though.

    The 'problem' is what I'd like to find out.

    Pretty much what was said by others above. A part is the portrayal of women.

    I can understand why some would have issues with something like the barn scene from GF too. Or Bond suddenly kissing Patricia in TB. Neither are sex, however, and as I said I think there are actually very few people who have criticisms about the actual sex in Bond films.
    I agree that the criticism is more about character and whether they exist purely for Bond to have sex with, rather than just the sex itself. I certainly don't think younger generations are more prudish. I must say, the number of films and tv shows I've seen recently with far more explicit and gratuitous sex than any Bond film, a little bit of prudishness might not be a bad thing. Maybe Bond could be a trendsetter in this area.

    There might be something to that. Bond is fundamentally a rather 'old fashioned' character in terms of morals. In the books one of these morals was to do with his relationship with women (no doubt in his younger days - CR specifically - he was an outright sexist with the overt 'women should be in the kitchen' mentality, but there's also that more chivalrous side to him in later stories. It's that St. George complex mixed with an attraction to damaged women that could be quite interesting played out).
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,150
    007HallY wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    In itself, no there's nothing wrong with sex in the Bond films. That's to say I don't there's too much or too little. As mentioned there's no issue with nudity and even the type of sex Bond has, while casual, is relatively 'vanilla' by most standards.

    I don't think the sex is what some people have a problem with when it comes to Bond films/Bond girls. Maybe that's another discussion though.

    The 'problem' is what I'd like to find out.

    Pretty much what was said by others above. A part is the portrayal of women.

    I can understand why some would have issues with something like the barn scene from GF too. Or Bond suddenly kissing Patricia in TB.

    Yeah, 'kissing her until she likes it' is certainly not cool and isn't coming back any time soon!
  • Posts: 3,088
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    In itself, no there's nothing wrong with sex in the Bond films. That's to say I don't there's too much or too little. As mentioned there's no issue with nudity and even the type of sex Bond has, while casual, is relatively 'vanilla' by most standards.

    I don't think the sex is what some people have a problem with when it comes to Bond films/Bond girls. Maybe that's another discussion though.

    The 'problem' is what I'd like to find out.

    Pretty much what was said by others above. A part is the portrayal of women.

    I can understand why some would have issues with something like the barn scene from GF too. Or Bond suddenly kissing Patricia in TB.

    Yeah, 'kissing her until she likes it' is certainly not cool and isn't coming back any time soon!

    I don't think it even aged well past the 70s, haha.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2023 Posts: 15,150
    Although as I said on here recently, I think TMWTGG is by far the most sexist of all the Bonds; moreso than the 60s ones even. Bond is actually sleazy for a lot of it, using quite lame lines on Goodnight to try and get a quick fumble, telling her her "frock" is tight "in all the right places", telling her her time will come after he shuts her in the cupboard and makes her listen to him shagging Andrea. And she's also shown to be a moron who jeopardises the whole mission more than once ("Women!" says Bond) and runs around in a bikini. Andrea meanwhile manages to be exploited and victimised by both Scaramanga and Bond. Guy Hamilton doesn't look great in his Roger films: first a racist one, then a sexist one :D
    Anya in the next film, whilst not exactly perfect, is a huge leap!
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,642
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    In itself, no there's nothing wrong with sex in the Bond films. That's to say I don't there's too much or too little. As mentioned there's no issue with nudity and even the type of sex Bond has, while casual, is relatively 'vanilla' by most standards.

    I don't think the sex is what some people have a problem with when it comes to Bond films/Bond girls. Maybe that's another discussion though.

    The 'problem' is what I'd like to find out.

    Pretty much what was said by others above. A part is the portrayal of women.

    I can understand why some would have issues with something like the barn scene from GF too. Or Bond suddenly kissing Patricia in TB.

    Yeah, 'kissing her until she likes it' is certainly not cool and isn't coming back any time soon!

    I never got the "thrill" of that move, either. The moment when Bond force-kisses Octopussy is particularly weird in that regard. First, the 'fight', then Moore's deadly serious face... I don't know, it's a bit too direct for my taste. Of course, the screenwriters "right that wrong" by showing that she's into it. Nevertheless, Bond doesn't win me over in that scene.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2023 Posts: 15,150
    Yeah he just says "we're two of a kind" or something and somehow that resolves everything: it's a very fudged moment. It's nice that they try and have a bit of drama (I've been saying recently about the contrasts between portrayals: imagine Sean's Bond doing that bit- wouldn't have happened. Roger's Bond is, counter-intuitively, more human and three dimensional) but they needed to write it properly.
    And I'm always confused by how they're suddenly standing inside the tentacles of Octopussy's elaborate bed!

    There is a touch of 'she says no but means yes' about Bond and Lucia in Spectre, which sounds a little dodgy perhaps, but it's directed and played very well and there's no doubt that she's into it.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    edited May 2023 Posts: 4,444
    Edit- couldn't post image
  • JustJamesJustJames London
    Posts: 205
    Fundamentally, the Bond girl is there for people who like looking at girls, Bond is there for people that like looking at boys. Sometimes they provide a variation, and throw in a henchman or henchwoman.
    In terms of sex scenes, well, Goldeneye and Xenia kind of changed up what they would show, and it has a higher certificate as a result.
    The Craig era has taken a more arthouse approach, but we also get odd things like the upskirt shot in QoS, or widow bone-jumping in Spectre.
  • zebrafishzebrafish <°)))< in Octopussy's garden in the shade
    Posts: 4,314
    I am still irritated by that upskirt shot of Oona Chaplin. Personally I find that very poor taste and still don't know why it is there in the first place.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,150
    Is she the one that Medrano sticks his hand up her skirt? That's a grim moment, not too keen on it.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited May 2023 Posts: 2,948
    Is there an actual upskirt shot (in the generally accepted sense of that term) of Oona Chaplin or is there a flash of her knickers as she rolls over and shuffles to stand up? It's not the same thing, after all (although it did get edited out of the last ITV showing of QOS!).
    It's not an incidental shot, it's there for a reason, but there's nothing remotely titillating or voyeuristic about that entire scene, right? It's sordid, horrible and abusive, like Medrano himself. Given that context, is it likely that that shot's there so that viewers can identify with Medrano and feel like a bit of a perve themselves by copping a look up Oona's dress? Or does it quickly tell the audience that Camille's intervention has succeeded in stopping Medrano before he's actually raped Oona's character? I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and go with the latter.
    I'd even say that scene would actually be worse without the flash of knicker, because if that wasn't there the viewer might have assumed that Medrano had succeeded in going further than he actually did. The panties tell us that Camille saved Oona from Medrano. That's a good thing to know, right?
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,735
    I must admit I don't even recall that scene. Must be the erratic editing once again.
  • JustJamesJustJames London
    Posts: 205
    Venutius wrote: »
    Is there an actual upskirt shot (in the generally accepted sense of that term) of Oona Chaplin or is there a flash of her knickers as she rolls over and shuffles to stand up? It's not the same thing, after all (although it did get edited out of the last ITV showing of QOS!).
    It's not an incidental shot, it's there for a reason, but there's nothing remotely titillating or voyeuristic about that entire scene, right? It's sordid, horrible and abusive, like Medrano himself. Given that context, is it likely that that shot's there so that viewers can identify with Medrano and feel like a bit of a perve themselves by copping a look up Oona's dress? Or does it quickly tell the audience that Camille's intervention has succeeded in stopping Medrano before he's actually raped Oona's character? I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and go with the latter.
    I'd even say that scene would actually be worse without the flash of knicker, because if that wasn't there the viewer might have assumed that Medrano had succeeded in going further than he actually did. The panties tell us that Camille saved Oona from Medrano. That's a good thing to know, right?

    It wasn’t until I was on this board that I heard the ‘everything’s ok shot’ suggestion, which did help it sit better — but you have to wonder at it at the time.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited May 2023 Posts: 2,948
    Yes, I see what you mean. It dawned on me a couple of years ago that I'd seen QOS so many times now that while I think that I grasped everything that was happening in it from the first time I watched it, I don't actually know if that's the case or if took several viewings to get everything clear! :D
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,028
    In terms of the actual act I can think of a few that are more involved than others. Fiona and Bond when she bites his shoulder and he then proceeds to slowly move down her body with the camera goes to her hands on the headboard. I remember seeing that on the VHS tape and being shocked because it had been edited out of the ABC movie of the week viewing. LOL!

    Fatima and Bond in NSNA was up there for leaving less to the imagination. Clearly our man is having some fun while the audience sees Fatima looking wild in the door frame. As a 14 year old watching that scene left an impression.

    Tim's Bond is perhaps the least shown to be frolicking but given the AIDS epidemic it is understandable.

    Roger's Bond is quite the sex maniac. Tricking Solitaire into sex and taking her virginity, having Goodnight in the closet while he satisfies Anders, making out with Max Kalba's assistant within minutes of meeting her, in MR he jumps Manuela quite quickly, poor Kimberly Jones in AVTAK with the sub trip back from Hawaii. Some are offered in the spirit of entertainment, but with what is acceptable today they might make viewing problematic.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,538
    The act itself isn't necessary, I always cringe at the one in DAD, but I do think Bond films should have sex appeal, whether it's Bond girls or Bond himself.

    A Bond film without glamorous women looking gorgeous as well being interesting and capable is boring quite honestly
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