NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - Discuss Hans Zimmer's Score

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  • Posts: 11,425
    Getafix wrote: »
    I think the score will be fine. Just perhaps not very memorable.

    By “memorable” do you mean something you could easily hum? I ask because I notice fans, especially Bond traditionalists, tend to think of them as being the same thing. While I can’t physically hum something like “Shanghai Drive”, I vividly remember every second of that piece as much as Barry’s “Bond Lured to Pyramid”.

    Depending on execution, I can find rhythmic music as memorable as melodic music. Of course, so many scores these days are far more veered towards ambient/rhythmic types of music as that has become prevalent in our culture since the turn of the century, just as the big band sound was in the 20th century. It’s understandable those who want more of the melodic music are upset with film scores. I’m kind of upset too, because today’s generation of composers who try going for big melodic themes like Michael Giacchino leave me utterly cold. They don’t quite have the punch that past composers like Barry, Goldsmith, and Williams had.

    I mean that I remember a scene and the music was very much part of that impact. CR and QOS are full of moments like that. And when you hear the score seperatley it evokes those moments in the films.

    I've listened to bits of the SP and SF scores and they evoke nothing. I have no recollection of what they were accompanying in the film. Plus in they're own right they're just really boring.
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    Posts: 2,541
    Thank God Arnold isn't returning and for Romer I will wait for first teaser or anything he delivers before that to make a judgement. Even if he hasn't score something bondian yet doesn't mean he can't.
  • Posts: 2,531
    No surprise with this choice. And so the infamous David Arnold debate is put to rest...until Bond 26...
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython "I want you looking FABULOUS."
    Posts: 4,730
    Getafix wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I think the score will be fine. Just perhaps not very memorable.

    By “memorable” do you mean something you could easily hum? I ask because I notice fans, especially Bond traditionalists, tend to think of them as being the same thing. While I can’t physically hum something like “Shanghai Drive”, I vividly remember every second of that piece as much as Barry’s “Bond Lured to Pyramid”.

    Depending on execution, I can find rhythmic music as memorable as melodic music. Of course, so many scores these days are far more veered towards ambient/rhythmic types of music as that has become prevalent in our culture since the turn of the century, just as the big band sound was in the 20th century. It’s understandable those who want more of the melodic music are upset with film scores. I’m kind of upset too, because today’s generation of composers who try going for big melodic themes like Michael Giacchino leave me utterly cold. They don’t quite have the punch that past composers like Barry, Goldsmith, and Williams had.

    I mean that I remember a scene and the music was very much part of that impact. CR and QOS are full of moments like that. And when you hear the score seperatley it evokes those moments in the films.

    I've listened to bits of the SP and SF scores and they evoke nothing. I have no recollection of what they were accompanying in the film. Plus in they're own right they're just really boring.

    If the music does nothing for ya, yeah, I can see how you wouldn’t connect the music with the scenes when isolated.

    Are there any rhythmic/ambient scores you do enjoy and find memorable?
  • edited July 2019 Posts: 4,346
    David Arnold was getting better throughout his tenure He started as a bit of a john Barry tribute act, but by CR and QOS he had developed into his own.

    The thing is.....Arnold has been away from the franchise now longer than he ever worked on these films. it'll be close to 12 years by the time Bond 25 arrives.

    For those reasons, I think it better for the series and (most importantly) Arnold to move on.

    The other issue is that Arnold has not presented a compelling case in those 12 years for returning. he has scored maybe one prominent film in the interim.

    It's Arnold's fault as much as Eon's that he was not invited back..........................
  • PavloPavlo Ukraine
    Posts: 323
    Murdock wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    Pavlo wrote: »
    To people who criticized Dan Romer work after listening his soundacks - film music must work not as isolated piece, but as part of movie, its dynamics. Film music is created not for listening in Youtube or on vinyl, but for perception in movie's dynamics. Dan Romer music in Cary's works perfectly fits tone, dynamics, emotional notes of films. Let's hope that the same will be the case in Bond 25.

    True, but the best thing about Bond scores is that they're amazing pieces to listen on YouTube and on Vinyl.

    100% this. There's no reason why film music can't be memorable and be fitting to a scene at the same time.

    But, first of all, it must fit in film. If it fits film, but doesnt sound great as piece on YouTube that it's great. It's bad when it sounds great on Youtube or Vinyl but doesnt work with movie.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython "I want you looking FABULOUS."
    Posts: 4,730
    David Arnold was getting better throughout his tenure He started as a bit of a john Barry tribute act, but by CR and QOS he had developed into his own.

    The thing is.....Arnold has been away from the franchise now longer than he ever worked on these films. it'll be close to 12 years by the time Bond 25 arrives.

    For those reasons, I think it better for the series and (most importantly) Arnold to move on.

    The other issue is that Arnold has not presented a compelling case in those 12 years for returning. he has scored maybe one prominent film in the interim.

    It's Arnold's fault as much as Eon's that he was not invited back..........................

    True, Arnold has barely done films since the start of the decade. Everything else has been TV productions. Anyone know why he’s largely stepped away from big film projects?
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    edited July 2019 Posts: 16,058
    Pavlo wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    Pavlo wrote: »
    To people who criticized Dan Romer work after listening his soundacks - film music must work not as isolated piece, but as part of movie, its dynamics. Film music is created not for listening in Youtube or on vinyl, but for perception in movie's dynamics. Dan Romer music in Cary's works perfectly fits tone, dynamics, emotional notes of films. Let's hope that the same will be the case in Bond 25.

    True, but the best thing about Bond scores is that they're amazing pieces to listen on YouTube and on Vinyl.

    100% this. There's no reason why film music can't be memorable and be fitting to a scene at the same time.

    But, first of all, it must fit in film. If it fits film, but doesnt sound great as piece on YouTube that it's great. It's bad when it sounds great on Youtube or Vinyl but doesnt work with movie.

    That sounds contradictory. A great piece of music should be able to do both seamlessly. I'd rather a piece of music be both fitting for a film and be listenable outside of a film. There's a reason I listen to the majority of Bond film soundtracks outside of watching the movies. I can listen to the likes of John Barry, David Arnold, Michael Kamen, George Martin, Bill Conti and Eric Serra's scores all day long. Even other composers like Jerry Goldsmith, James Horner, John Williams, Alan Silvestri and many others are able to make great pieces of music that not only fit a film but are repeatedly listenable outside a film. A great film score should be both.
  • Posts: 11,425
    David Arnold was getting better throughout his tenure He started as a bit of a john Barry tribute act, but by CR and QOS he had developed into his own.

    The thing is.....Arnold has been away from the franchise now longer than he ever worked on these films. it'll be close to 12 years by the time Bond 25 arrives.

    For those reasons, I think it better for the series and (most importantly) Arnold to move on.

    The other issue is that Arnold has not presented a compelling case in those 12 years for returning. he has scored maybe one prominent film in the interim.

    It's Arnold's fault as much as Eon's that he was not invited back..........................

    True, Arnold has barely done films since the start of the decade. Everything else has been TV productions. Anyone know why he’s largely stepped away from big film projects?

    I think large film projects have stepped away from him
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,815
    All of these scores from Romer sound like Newman sans Pixar. Not at all reassuring imo. I fear he's going to go for the similar approach of evoking a mood during an action scene instead of actually pacing/matching it to the action beats (as Arnold has done in the past).

    With Arnold you'd also get to hear the music surge up and down several times in a single track and each high would be greater than the last. Romer on the other hand seems to focus on capturing the atmosphere, which is perfectly fine for establishing shots or for characters' themes, but it's just not going to ever be viscerally exciting or epic.

  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,422
    Thank God Arnold isn't returning and for Romer I will wait for first teaser or anything he delivers before that to make a judgement. Even if he hasn't score something bondian yet doesn't mean he can't.

    You mean to say you didn't like his scores for CR and QoS..? Talk about hard to please!

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython "I want you looking FABULOUS."
    Posts: 4,730
    All of these scores from Romer sound like Newman sans Pixar. Not at all reassuring imo. I fear he's going to go for the similar approach of evoking a mood during an action scene instead of actually pacing/matching it to the action beats (as Arnold has done in the past).

    With Arnold you'd also get to hear the music surge up and down several times in a single track and each high would be greater than the last. Romer on the other hand seems to focus on capturing the atmosphere, which is perfectly fine for establishing shots or for characters' themes, but it's just not going to ever be viscerally exciting or epic.

    And it’s a perfectly valid way to score action, as we’ve had even Barry in the past score action scenes with a slow tempo rather than try to compete with what’s on screen. It’s called scoring “on top”, whereas Arnold went for the approach of having the music match with what’s on screen which is what John Williams does.
  • edited July 2019 Posts: 3,133
    On teaser/trailer comments, we almost definitely won't hear any of Romer's score in them. He probably won't be recording it until early next year...
  • PavloPavlo Ukraine
    Posts: 323
    antovolk wrote: »
    On teaser/trailer comments, we almost definitely won't hear any of Romer's score in them. He probably won't be recording it until early next year...

    It depends on professional scecifics of Cary and Dan collaboration. Many directors start to work intensely with composer during production (some even start in pre-production). Most common, of course, in post-production but question is will Cary and Dan create music parallel with editing or they start creating concrete music after rough cut is ready. If first then we can hear some Dan's work in trailers.
  • edited July 2019 Posts: 3,133
    Pavlo wrote: »
    antovolk wrote: »
    On teaser/trailer comments, we almost definitely won't hear any of Romer's score in them. He probably won't be recording it until early next year...

    It depends on professional scecifics of Cary and Dan collaboration. Many directors start to work intensely with composer during production (some even start in pre-production). Most common, of course, in post-production but question is will Cary and Dan create music parallel with editing or they start creating concrete music after rough cut is ready. If first then we can hear some Dan's work in trailers.

    Sure but even then, early work from Romer showing up is extremely unlikely. None of the Craig era trailers to date actually featured any of Arnold's/Newman's scores.

    Unless we're talking about a film that's already long in the can by the time the marketing campaign begins (usually smaller indie films) or a case like Nolan/Zimmer or Fincher/Reznor/Ross where not only there's a ton of early demos they want to pull from but they're keen to compose a bespoke thing entirely, trailers featuring music work from the film's composers is very rare.

    Willing to bet Jeff Pfeifer is working on something as we speak...or the trailer editors have found something fresh to use in his sure-to-be-massive library of Bond trailer scores :D
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,815
    All of these scores from Romer sound like Newman sans Pixar. Not at all reassuring imo. I fear he's going to go for the similar approach of evoking a mood during an action scene instead of actually pacing/matching it to the action beats (as Arnold has done in the past).

    With Arnold you'd also get to hear the music surge up and down several times in a single track and each high would be greater than the last. Romer on the other hand seems to focus on capturing the atmosphere, which is perfectly fine for establishing shots or for characters' themes, but it's just not going to ever be viscerally exciting or epic.

    And it’s a perfectly valid way to score action, as we’ve had even Barry in the past score action scenes with a slow tempo rather than try to compete with what’s on screen. It’s called scoring “on top”, whereas Arnold went for the approach of having the music match with what’s on screen which is what John Williams does.

    Yes, Barry was a master at doing it that way, but I don't think that the distanced nature of 'on top' music is the best method for scoring a Bond film today.

    The only good thing to come out of Romer's hiring is that my expectations are so low that (technically speaking) he can't disappoint me.
  • PavloPavlo Ukraine
    Posts: 323
    antovolk wrote: »
    Pavlo wrote: »
    antovolk wrote: »
    On teaser/trailer comments, we almost definitely won't hear any of Romer's score in them. He probably won't be recording it until early next year...

    It depends on professional scecifics of Cary and Dan collaboration. Many directors start to work intensely with composer during production (some even start in pre-production). Most common, of course, in post-production but question is will Cary and Dan create music parallel with editing or they start creating concrete music after rough cut is ready. If first then we can hear some Dan's work in trailers.

    Sure but even then, early work from Romer showing up is extremely unlikely. None of the Craig era trailers to date actually featured any of Arnold's/Newman's scores.

    Unless we're talking about a film that's already long in the can by the time the marketing campaign begins (usually smaller indie films) or a case like Nolan/Zimmer or Fincher/Reznor/Ross where not only there's a ton of early demos they want to pull from but they're keen to compose a bespoke thing entirely, trailers featuring music work from the film's composers is very rare.

    Willing to bet Jeff Pfeifer is working on something as we speak...or the trailer editors have found something fresh to use in his sure-to-be-massive library of Bond trailer scores :D

    Agree. Maybe Cary and Dan decide to record kind of musical theme for trailer. Anyway it's not something critical for B25 marketing strategy. But definitely Dan Romer's music we won't hear in first teaser-trailer.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython "I want you looking FABULOUS."
    Posts: 4,730
    The last time we had the Bond new score featured in a trailer was 30 years ago with LTK. I’m not expecting to hear any of the score until sometime in April.
  • zerozerozerozero The far far east
    Posts: 54
    Thank God Arnold isn't returning and for Romer I will wait for first teaser or anything he delivers before that to make a judgement. Even if he hasn't score something bondian yet doesn't mean he can't.

    I agree! I've no idea who Romer is, so don't know what to expect. However, Arnold's scores were always weighed down by layer upon layer of percussion and over-orchestrated by Nicholas Dodds.
  • Posts: 3,037
    Getafix wrote: »
    David Arnold was getting better throughout his tenure He started as a bit of a john Barry tribute act, but by CR and QOS he had developed into his own.

    The thing is.....Arnold has been away from the franchise now longer than he ever worked on these films. it'll be close to 12 years by the time Bond 25 arrives.

    For those reasons, I think it better for the series and (most importantly) Arnold to move on.

    The other issue is that Arnold has not presented a compelling case in those 12 years for returning. he has scored maybe one prominent film in the interim.

    It's Arnold's fault as much as Eon's that he was not invited back..........................

    True, Arnold has barely done films since the start of the decade. Everything else has been TV productions. Anyone know why he’s largely stepped away from big film projects?

    I think large film projects have stepped away from him

    He has rejected offers. At least he said so in a radio interview. But for Bond "the door is always open" as he puts it.

    He is perfectly content with doing series like Sherlock, presently Good Omens and the coming Dracula-series. His OST for 'Good Omens' shows how brilliant a composer he is.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 6,470
    Zekidk wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    David Arnold was getting better throughout his tenure He started as a bit of a john Barry tribute act, but by CR and QOS he had developed into his own.

    The thing is.....Arnold has been away from the franchise now longer than he ever worked on these films. it'll be close to 12 years by the time Bond 25 arrives.

    For those reasons, I think it better for the series and (most importantly) Arnold to move on.

    The other issue is that Arnold has not presented a compelling case in those 12 years for returning. he has scored maybe one prominent film in the interim.

    It's Arnold's fault as much as Eon's that he was not invited back..........................

    True, Arnold has barely done films since the start of the decade. Everything else has been TV productions. Anyone know why he’s largely stepped away from big film projects?

    I think large film projects have stepped away from him

    He has rejected offers. At least he said so in a radio interview. But for Bond "the door is always open" as he puts it.

    He is perfectly content with doing series like Sherlock, presently Good Omens and the coming Dracula-series. His OST for 'Good Omens' shows how brilliant a composer he is.

    It's funny that someone mentioned Elliot Goldenthal on the previous page, because that's exactly what he has been doing since about 2007/08, too - focusing on a lot of television, concert works and theatre collaborations. And he's a real talent, as well.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Zekidk wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    David Arnold was getting better throughout his tenure He started as a bit of a john Barry tribute act, but by CR and QOS he had developed into his own.

    The thing is.....Arnold has been away from the franchise now longer than he ever worked on these films. it'll be close to 12 years by the time Bond 25 arrives.

    For those reasons, I think it better for the series and (most importantly) Arnold to move on.

    The other issue is that Arnold has not presented a compelling case in those 12 years for returning. he has scored maybe one prominent film in the interim.

    It's Arnold's fault as much as Eon's that he was not invited back..........................

    True, Arnold has barely done films since the start of the decade. Everything else has been TV productions. Anyone know why he’s largely stepped away from big film projects?

    I think large film projects have stepped away from him

    He has rejected offers. At least he said so in a radio interview. But for Bond "the door is always open" as he puts it.

    He is perfectly content with doing series like Sherlock, presently Good Omens and the coming Dracula-series. His OST for 'Good Omens' shows how brilliant a composer he is.

    Maybe he's made his money and the stress of a big movie is not for him?
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    David Arnold was getting better throughout his tenure He started as a bit of a john Barry tribute act, but by CR and QOS he had developed into his own.

    The thing is.....Arnold has been away from the franchise now longer than he ever worked on these films. it'll be close to 12 years by the time Bond 25 arrives.

    For those reasons, I think it better for the series and (most importantly) Arnold to move on.

    The other issue is that Arnold has not presented a compelling case in those 12 years for returning. he has scored maybe one prominent film in the interim.

    It's Arnold's fault as much as Eon's that he was not invited back..........................

    Well, to be fair, it's not like that many Bond movies came out in the interim. By the time Bond 25 comes out, he'll have been away from Bond for 3 movies.
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    Posts: 2,541
    Thank God Arnold isn't returning and for Romer I will wait for first teaser or anything he delivers before that to make a judgement. Even if he hasn't score something bondian yet doesn't mean he can't.

    You mean to say you didn't like his scores for CR and QoS..? Talk about hard to please!

    I did like those and yet I am not forgetting his score's in brosnan films. It's time for someone new to take the rein , not interested in these Arnold comment anymore.
  • Posts: 2,372
    Pavlo wrote: »
    To people who criticized Dan Romer work after listening his soundacks - film music must work not as isolated piece, but as part of movie, its dynamics. Film music is created not for listening in Youtube or on vinyl, but for perception in movie's dynamics. Dan Romer music in Cary's works perfectly fits tone, dynamics, emotional notes of films. Let's hope that the same will be the case in Bond 25.

    And yet you can stick on a John Barry album and listen to in complete isolation - and it still sounds great. Hell, even some of Arnold's work sounds great in isolation.

    The same cannot be said of Romer from what we have heard so far.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython "I want you looking FABULOUS."
    Posts: 4,730
    I like bombastic music in Bond scores, but I feel Arnold indulged in that too much to the point his scores became ruinous. One that sticks to mind is in CR, right after Bond hangs up his phone on the banker, it’s just these loud pounding notes that sound like they’d be more suited to a shoot em up action scene, but it’s just Bond scoping around Venice for Vesper. Even watching with my dad he had to ask “what’s with the score?”. I can’t help but think the scene would be better off with something more subtle that built up the tension, something Barry was a master at conjuring up with a repetitive note structure that would slowly add up more layers to rack up the suspense.
  • Posts: 2,372
    Pavlo wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    Pavlo wrote: »
    To people who criticized Dan Romer work after listening his soundacks - film music must work not as isolated piece, but as part of movie, its dynamics. Film music is created not for listening in Youtube or on vinyl, but for perception in movie's dynamics. Dan Romer music in Cary's works perfectly fits tone, dynamics, emotional notes of films. Let's hope that the same will be the case in Bond 25.

    True, but the best thing about Bond scores is that they're amazing pieces to listen on YouTube and on Vinyl.

    100% this. There's no reason why film music can't be memorable and be fitting to a scene at the same time.

    But, first of all, it must fit in film. If it fits film, but doesnt sound great as piece on YouTube that it's great. It's bad when it sounds great on Youtube or Vinyl but doesnt work with movie.

    Ridiculous comment, and you know it.

    All John Barry stuff sounds excellent on YouTube, as does John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, Ennio Morricone, even Hans Zimmer. You can listen to pretty anything these guys do in isolation, and it sounds great.

    So by your reckoning, all of these composers therefore must be bad, because they sound great on YouTube and vinyl...?
  • Posts: 3,924
    I like bombastic music in Bond scores, but I feel Arnold indulged in that too much to the point his scores became ruinous. One that sticks to mind is in CR, right after Bond hangs up his phone on the banker, it’s just these loud pounding notes that sound like they’d be more suited to a shoot em up action scene, but it’s just Bond scoping around Venice for Vesper. Even watching with my dad he had to ask “what’s with the score?”. I can’t help but think the scene would be better off with something more subtle that built up the tension, something Barry was a master at conjuring up with a repetitive note structure that would slowly add up more layers to rack up the suspense.

    Bond has just found out that Vesper has betrayed him.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython "I want you looking FABULOUS."
    Posts: 4,730
    Pavlo’s point is that the primary objective of film score music is that must compliment/fit the film. Whether it can be something you listen to in isolation is just a bonus. That’s why a site like FilmTracks.com has a rating system where they rate the score in isolation and rate the score within the film.

    He’s not arguing a Goldsmith score sounding great outside of a film is terrible.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 6,470
    vzok wrote: »
    I like bombastic music in Bond scores, but I feel Arnold indulged in that too much to the point his scores became ruinous. One that sticks to mind is in CR, right after Bond hangs up his phone on the banker, it’s just these loud pounding notes that sound like they’d be more suited to a shoot em up action scene, but it’s just Bond scoping around Venice for Vesper. Even watching with my dad he had to ask “what’s with the score?”. I can’t help but think the scene would be better off with something more subtle that built up the tension, something Barry was a master at conjuring up with a repetitive note structure that would slowly add up more layers to rack up the suspense.

    Bond has just found out that Vesper has betrayed him.

    Agreed. The entire Venice sequence is beautifully scored.
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