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The MI6 Community Religion and Faith Discussion Space (for members of all faiths - and none!)

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  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Give you somewhere to go of a Sunday, for a cup of tea and a chat
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    NicNac wrote: »
    I have no faith, but as a baby I was christened into the Church of England.

    When I was about to marry a catholic girl I had to attend meetings with the priest who was marrying us (my wife cared far more about this than I did). I recall asking him direct questions about God and the catholic faith, and he pointedly said (something like) 'I accept other religious persuasions, but I happen to know we are right."

    He wasn't talking about other religions outside of Christianity, he was talking outside of the Catholic faith. He was basically rejecting every interpretation other than the Catholic viewpoint. Which follows on from what @patb said.

    Then I wondered why I was being hypocritical and marrying in a church? Why do I accept invitations to other people's weddings in church? Why do I celebrate Easter and Christmas? ( I know gift giving is older than Christianity, but I also have to accept that we do it because it's a Christian celebration ). Is it hypocritical?

    @NicNac, I wouldn't say it's hypocritical. I am not a holiday guy and don't celebrate much anything, but Christmas always gets me in the mood despite my beliefs. And that's because I've made my own tradition and take my own value out of it that is intensely secular. I don't view the day as a religious celebration, but one where I come together with the few that matter and enjoy a quiet moment amidst the chaos of the world where we share what we mean to one another. It's the atmosphere of Christmas, the shining lights, the snow caking the lawn and the whistling wind outside, that really gets me in the mood and makes me feel more peace and pleasure than reading any bible verse would.

    It's all in the individual, and how you spend your time. For some the days around Halloween are spiritual as you remember those who've passed, thinking they've returned briefly to the earth, but for others it's just a fun secular time that allows you to dress up like a dork and kick back. There's no one side to a holiday, and no one way to celebrate. Which is great, because I'd have gone mad years ago if there wasn't.
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,600
    Sometimes it goes the the other way. I friend of mine did not invite me to his second son's Christening as he knew that I thought it was a load of rubbish and obvioulsy I accept his decision.

    Again, this is a tricky one as I cant imagine people holding a secular wedding, for example, not inviting those of faith.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 14,826
    Thunderpussy wrote: »
    The great thing about the COE is that even bishops in it, don't believe whole sections of the bible. So it's a great club for anyone. Believers or non believers.

    The same thing could be said of the Catholic Church who now acknowledge Darwin was right... But try to explain this to the flock. Or that a Savior is needed for an Original Sin that never happened.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I ain't disagreeing.
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,268
    Just want to mention in this thread my favorite episode of The Simpsons is Homer the Heretic - when Homer finds skipping church is more fun and he abandons his religion most of the episode (until the end, when, fittingly, he returns to church but falls asleep). Very funny way of tackling some of the issues of religion. Anyone wanting a good laugh should watch it.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    comics-WUMO-fat-people-buddha-588901.jpeg
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    There are only five nations in the world today where absolute power belongs to one single person:

    Brunei, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Swaziland and Vatican City.

  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    Posts: 2,721
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    There are only five nations in the world today where absolute power belongs to one single person:

    Brunei, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Swaziland and Vatican City.

    North Korea?

  • patbpatb
    edited August 2017 Posts: 4,600
    Just got back from holiday and something I saw made me think of this forum. A teenage boy had climbed up some rocks on the beach and then fell to the bottom. He was in a bad way and the full infrastructure of UK rescue services swung into action: RNLI, paramedic by car and then the Devon Air Ambulance landing on the beach. The whole operation was really impressive. And think of the science involved. From all the tech in the helicopter to the internal cumbustion engine of the paramedic's car. From the sat nav to the walkie talkies. From the medical research of back injuries to X Ray and from the drugs to the MRI scanner at the hospital and lots lots more. Our efforts in science mean tha the boy had a much better chance of surviving than he did 200 years ago when obvioulsy boys still fell from rocks. We should all be grateful for the research work carried out in the past to create inventions that save lives and for the future developments that are presently being worked on.

    On another level, all of these services were secular. There was no cathloic helicopter or Ismamic Ambulance. We dont need religion to build infrastructures that help each other and ourselves if required.

    So what does religion offer in these situations? Possible comfort to the relatives who can pray for a possitive outcome. But, of course, 200 years ago, this option existed also and we can consider whether God would repair a broken bone, kill infection etc etc

    The obvious lesson is that God offers very little compared to how we exploit our own skills and knowledge to help ourselves. The next time I have some loose change, it will be going towards the air ambulance or the RNLI rather the the church roof fund.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    patb wrote: »
    Just got back from holiday and something I saw made me think of this forum. A teenage boy had climbed up some rocks on the beach and then fell to the bottom. He was in a bad way and the full infrastructure of UK rescue services swung into action: RNLI, paramedic by car and then the Devon Air Ambulance landing on the beach. The whole operation was really impressive. And think of the science involved. From all the tech in the helicopter to the internal cumbustion engine of the paramedic's car. From the sat nav to the walkie talkies. From the medical research of back injuries to X Ray and from the drugs to the MRI scanner at the hospital and lots lots more. Our efforts in science mean tha the boy had a much better chance of surviving than he did 200 years ago when obvioulsy boys still fell from rocks. We should all be grateful for the research work carried out in the past to create inventions that save lives and for the future developments that are presently being worked on.

    On another level, all of these services were secular. There was no cathloic helicopter or Ismamic Ambulance. We dont need religion to build infrastructures that help each other and ourselves if required.

    So what does religion offer in these situations? Possible comfort to the relatives who can pray for a possitive outcome. But, of course, 200 years ago, this option existed also and we can consider whether God would repair a broken bone, kill infection etc etc

    The obvious lesson is that God offers very little compared to how we exploit our own skills and knowledge to help ourselves. The next time I have some loose change, it will be going towards the air ambulance or the RNLI rather the the church roof fund.

    Or they could have all just stood on the edge of the cliff and I'm sure God or Allah or whoever would have magically flown him to safety on a winged horse and cured his injuries at the same time for good measure. If they'd just had a bit more faith and got down on their knees instead of leaping to dial 999 this definitely would have happened.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Major_Boothroyd wrote: »
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    There are only five nations in the world today where absolute power belongs to one single person:

    Brunei, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Swaziland and Vatican City.

    North Korea?

    It is ruled by one party, but they have a government and the leader of the government is not the same as the head of state.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 14,826
    @patb that was a fascinating story. And a very convincing example. Even with the best intentions could any person of faith have done anything through their faith to protect and save this child? At best religion is irrelevant. At worst a hindrance.
  • patbpatb
    edited August 2017 Posts: 4,600
    cheers, of course , these things are happening as we speak but it really impacted as I witnessed it first hand. Religion really must be challenged in terms of what it "brings to the table" our thanks really should go to heroes such as Marconi, Sikorsky, Whittle, Pasteur. These are my heroes. They have done more to help us than any Archbishop
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    042-Wulffmorgenthaler_2011-01-25.13.jpeg
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Rust Cohle told me to piss off and that he was doing being quoted by me for a while, so here's some wise words from Penn Jillette about something Rust ponders a lot: the self-damnation of the religious.

    lUvpF9K.jpg
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,547
    Excellent post, @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7!

    Quite true too. Morals drawn from common sense, from empathy, are much more powerful anyway than those imposed by fear and dogma. Zealots are slaves.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 14,826
    I love that quote from Penn Jillette.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Caricature_wulffmorgenthaler-2006-12-03.jpg
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,600
    Everyday, we get more stuff....pathetic

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-40898638
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 14,826
    0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 wrote: »
    Rust Cohle told me to piss off and that he was doing being quoted by me for a while, so here's some wise words from Penn Jillette about something Rust ponders a lot: the self-damnation of the religious.

    lUvpF9K.jpg

    On the same subject, I love how Sartre debunked Dostoevsky's argument "if there was no God, everything would be allowed." Sartre's answer: "Dostoevsky is absolutely right". Meaning of course that everything is effectively, de facto allowed and no higher power stops anyone for behaving however amorally as one wants.
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,600
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/841882/Madeira-tree-accident-fall-killed-injured-Portugal-religious-festival-hospital
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 14,826
    And someone from the US far right did the same recently. But there's no problem with religion no siree no. (And yes fascist movements in the US and elsewhere are also Christian).
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 14,826
    Interesting video from Matt Dillahunty about slavery in the Bible:
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,600
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-41049705

    "At least 23 people have been killed in violent protests over the rape conviction of a popular religious leader in north India.

    The victims are believed to be Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh's followers. Angry supporters rampaged through Panchkula town, near Chandigarh.

    About 2,500 of Singh's followers have been arrested, police said."
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    70_virgins.jpg
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    A rare good news story in these bleak times:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/04/half-uk-population-has-no-religion-british-social-attitudes-survey
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    wumo-120304.jpg
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Breaking news: Hurricane Harvey was a test from God.

    Do you think we've passed?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,547
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    A rare good news story in these bleak times:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/04/half-uk-population-has-no-religion-british-social-attitudes-survey

    Eventually, we'll get there. :-)
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