The BREXIT Discussion Thread.

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  • Posts: 4,619
    May is the single worst European leader since Adolf Hitler, so it does not surprise me just how awful this deal is. I am a life long right winger, but if I were a UK citizen and there was a general election tomorrow, I would vote Labour in a heartbeat. Corbyn is a commie, but he is an honest commie. I genuinely like the guy!
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,539
    Where are you from @PanchitoPistoles ?
  • edited November 2018 Posts: 4,619
    peter wrote: »
    Where are you from @PanchitoPistoles ?
    I would rather not reveal which country I am from. I am from an EU member state. Btw, I do not support my country leaving the EU, because I believe the benefits outweigh the disadvantages for us, but I did support Brexit from the start. Even when I lived in the UK and was planning to live in the UK for possibly decades.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,539
    you're an interesting person, Panchito. I think you like to stir the shit in OTT statements to see the reaction. Some of these statements maybe a caricature of your beliefs. Others are very sincere.
  • edited November 2018 Posts: 11,425
    May is the single worst European leader since Adolf Hitler, so it does not surprise me just how awful this deal is. I am a life long right winger, but if I were a UK citizen and there was a general election tomorrow, I would vote Labour in a heartbeat. Corbyn is a commie, but he is an honest commie. I genuinely like the guy!

    Absurd statement. Obviously the worst European leader since AH was Cameron.

    May is a dreadful politician but I suspect her deal is the best the UK could have hoped for.
  • Posts: 14,840
    I’m not a fan of Theresa May since the last election, but comparing her (or Cameron for that matter) to Hitler is absurd and insulting.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited November 2018 Posts: 6,791
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I’m not a fan of Theresa May since the last election, but comparing her (or Cameron for that matter) to Hitler is absurd and insulting.

    Even more so considering dictators such as Ceaucescu, Stalin, Honecker, Franco, Milosevic, Salazar (and some others that I can’t come up with right now) have all governed European countries after WW II. Says a lot about the historical knowledge of someone who proclaims such nonsense.
  • Posts: 4,602
    This is one of the main issues with online political debate. The overall content and level of debate can be adult, educated and erudite (on both sides) and then you get one post with quite the opposite of qualities and it detracts the focus.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I’m not a fan of Theresa May since the last election, but comparing her (or Cameron for that matter) to Hitler is absurd and insulting.

    That s right. We must show some respect to the dead.
  • Posts: 12,506
    Either way I will be glad to see the back of Brexit, deal or no deal? Because it the general public of the world who are the wealth creators of the world, not politicians. Once it is done the people will make things happen and if the politicians do not carry out their wishes then they will be on JSA instead.
  • edited November 2018 Posts: 1,661
    Songs that sump up May's Brexit deal....

    Mission Impossible:




    Help!:



    ;)






  • Posts: 11,425
    Brexit is a far right project. That's not to say that all those who voted for it are far right, but the driving force behind it is the old fashioned extreme nationalism that has plagued Europe for centuries.
  • edited November 2018 Posts: 1,661
    If the latest 'project fear' predictions turn out to be correct - higher inflation, lower productivity etc - I don't think it's worth the risk leaving. I'm more of a leaver than a remainer but what's the point risking it all in the hope/guess/blind faith the economy won't flat line or go backwards when we leave? I dunno, is it worth it? We've been going through eight years of austerity - the British people don't deserve more grief. If the news is genuine and not exaggerated - there's a been a huge rise in food banks usage and homeless people.

    I'm trying not to make a political point but if there is a risk to the economy then it's going to increase poverty, not make many people's lives better. Nigel Farage/Moog/Boris Johnson are not poor but not all leavers are well off.

    I think we should stay in the EU but the EU should give us full control over immigration/borders, waters and the European Court of Justice has no say over us. We agree to give the EU a bit more money and they agree to our conditions. Let's face it, the EU wants our money as much as anything else! Sure, it's not a perfect scenerio but if we scrap leaving then May or whoever is the PM must insist on reform. We return to the club but under new terms. And then we can forget the whole affair and move on! Hooray!
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,700
    fanbond123 wrote: »
    I think we should stay in the EU but the EU should give us full control over immigration/borders, waters and the European Court of Justice has no say over us. We agree to give the EU a bit more money and they agree to our conditions. Let's face it, the EU wants our money as much as anything else! Sure, it's not a perfect scenerio but if we scrap leaving then May or whoever is the PM must insist on reform. We return to the club but under new terms. And then we can forget the whole affair and move on! Hooray!
    Except that your concept is completely delusional and very much like what the Brexiteers have falsely promised the voters. Cherry picking. The EU doesn't need the few billion euros or pounds that you pay more than you get back directly. By the way, regarding "control of immigration" it was the Brits who insisted on starting early with freedom of movement for the Eastern European new members because you wanted cheap labour, or whatever, and more than 50 per cent of immigrants to the UK are not even from EU countries anyway. And what's wrong with the European Court of Justice if decision on EU law have to be made? Should a magistrate in Little Whinging, Surrey, decide instead?
  • edited December 2018 Posts: 1,661
    On his LBC show Nigel Farage has talked about leaving on a no deal. He said we should leave with no deal but offer the EU a free trade deal. If they disagree the worst case scenario is 3 to 4 percent tariffs on goods. He said that won't represent a major impact on our country - short term pain - and we'd impose the same tariffs on UK goods imported to the EU.

    He seems adamant that a no deal WTO/ free trade deal with the EU is the way forward but the more I think about it... the less credible it sounds. If the UK could leave under WTO rules and secure a free trade deal with the EU - many of the other 27 EU countries would do the same. There is zero incentive for the EU to agree to a free trade deal so I think Farage is a tad deluded.

    There is a risk leaving with no deal, going with May's deal or remaining (which would annoy 17 million that voted to leave)! Brexit has no solution. The whole thing is a mess. Instinctively I'd prefer to leave but if the means to leave is flawed then remaining is the better option. The more practical option.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,561
    fanbond123 wrote: »
    I think Farage is a tad deluded.

    He is, and not merely a tad.
    fanbond123 wrote: »
    Instinctively I'd prefer to leave but if the means to leave is flawed then remaining is the better option. The more practical option.

    I like your thinking. ;-)
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Why is it that things cannot just go back to what they were before the UK joined? I understand some things take a while to get dismantled and rearranged, but perhaps a divorce deal should have been settled beforehand?
  • edited December 2018 Posts: 1,661
    May faces another major problem:
    Theresa May has been warned she is on course for a “historic constitutional row” unless the government releases its full legal advice on the Brexit deal. Labour has said it is ready to combine with other opposition parties to start proceedings for contempt of parliament unless the legal opinion of the attorney general, Geoffrey Cox, is published in full.

    The DUP, which props up the Conservative government in the Commons, was said to be ready to sign a joint letter with other parties to the speaker, John Bercow, on Monday unless ministers back down. It potentially represents another hurdle for May as she struggles to win backing for her deal in the crucial commons vote on 11 December.

    MPs across parliament have angrily accused ministers of ignoring the will of the House after they said they would only release a “full, reasoned position statement” based on the legal advice.

    December 2018 is going to be a defining point in British politics! Hold on tight, folks, it's gonna be a bumpy ride!
  • Posts: 4,602
    Spent alot of time talking about this down the pub last night. One topic which does not seem to be discussed is: if there is a second "peoples vote" (horrible phrase), what exactly would be the options? If "out" is an option and wins, then we are back to exactly where we are now.

    We discussed possibly a second question on the paper, based on the options we have now:

    "If you voted leave, please see the next question: Please select from the "May" option or a "no deal" option.

    At least that means that the people have had a say in defining what leave is and bypasses all of the failed votes in the commons. It woud mean that we could move on with a mandate for exactly how we want to leave.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,561
    Why is it that things cannot just go back to what they were before the UK joined? I understand some things take a while to get dismantled and rearranged, but perhaps a divorce deal should have been settled beforehand?

    I suppose it's not that easy, @Thunderfinger. You can't just go back. Socio-economical, geopolitical, military and other affairs constantly evolve, become more intricate and complex, more connected, more entangled. It's impossible to wrench all of that backwards overnight.

    Furthermore, I'm honestly convinced that people who are a lot smarter than you or I have good reasons for not just severing all ties and call it a day. If it were that easy, I bet it would have been done a long time ago, and not just by the EU. The fact that it's taking so long, that there's so much opposition, that influential people are not willing to simply humour the majority vote, tells me that in almost every conceivable "leave" scenario, the UK loses, which is why this "Brexit agreement" is hardly a Brexit at all.

    Even Farage doesn't have all the answers, so much is clear. He and a few others have poisoned the minds of millions of Britons, appealed to their pride and fears, and marginally won a vote. But now that reality kicks in, there's a lot of yelling and protesting going on, and yet we're at a virtual stand-still. Why? Because the simple binary choice of "leave" or "remain" turns out to be much more difficult.
  • edited December 2018 Posts: 4,602
    Any reasonable observer would confirm that the remainers used fear as much as leavers. Remember the leaked "emergency budget" for example. There were many expert predictions concerning what would happen to the UK econmony following a leave vote and none of them have happened.

    https://uk.businessesforsale.com/uk/search/businesses-for-sale/articles/bank-of-englands-chief-economist-admits-errors-in-brexit-forecasts
  • Posts: 12,506
    So I see the ECJ has commented that the UK could revoke article 50 and stay as we are? Well? That would cause a crisis!
  • edited December 2018 Posts: 1,661
    Government has been found in contempt (!) and has to release the full report on Brexit.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/04/mps-demand-for-brexit-legal-advice-too-vague-says-geoffrey-cox

    I think this unredacted report will play into the hands of the leavers. If the government is trying to hide the potential damage of the 'Withdrawal deal', I can't see it's going to help May win the vote. She's doomed!

  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,700
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    So I see the ECJ has commented that the UK could revoke article 50 and stay as we are? Well? That would cause a crisis!

    No, but the Advocate General for the case submitted his opinion that the UK could unilaterally revoke its notice and that the 27 couldn't do anything about it until the "leave agreement" has been signed. Whether the UK would make a crisis of it is another matter. And while the ECJ normally follows the Advocate General's opinion, sometimes it doesn't.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited December 2018 Posts: 17,816
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    So I see the ECJ has commented that the UK could revoke article 50 and stay as we are? Well? That would cause a crisis!

    No, but the Advocate General for the case submitted his opinion that the UK could unilaterally revoke its notice and that the 27 couldn't do anything about it until the "leave agreement" has been signed. Whether the UK would make a crisis of it is another matter. And while the ECJ normally follows the Advocate General's opinion, sometimes it doesn't.

    I'm sure that the ECJ would be glad to acquiese in this case however. It all comes back to the result of the referendum and choosing to remain in the EU most certainly goes against the democratic will of the people as stated in said referendum. Of course, as we well know, the EU is not an institution based on democratic values and so we can expect little else from its various legal and political bodies.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,700
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    So I see the ECJ has commented that the UK could revoke article 50 and stay as we are? Well? That would cause a crisis!

    No, but the Advocate General for the case submitted his opinion that the UK could unilaterally revoke its notice and that the 27 couldn't do anything about it until the "leave agreement" has been signed. Whether the UK would make a crisis of it is another matter. And while the ECJ normally follows the Advocate General's opinion, sometimes it doesn't.

    I'm sure that the ECJ would be glad to acquiese in this case however. It all comes back to the result of the referendum and choosing to remain in the EU most certainly goes against the democratic will of the people as stated in said referendum. Of course, as we well know, the EU is not an institution based on democratic values and so we can expect little else from its various legal and political bodies.

    It has nothing to do with the referendum. If UK should change its mind (and the Advocate General stated expressly that that would have to be done based on the UK's constitutional provisions), the EU could do nothing about it for now (although I'm sure that at this point, at least half of the other members states would be glad if the UK leaves, as it is perceived as mainly a source of obstruction, and has been since Thatcher). But it's entirely and only up to the UK to decide. I find the EU quite democratic, in fact, and here it only respects a member state's democratic decision to leave. Not that I find a 52:48 decision sufficient for a decision that has at least the impact of a constitutional change, but even that is up to the British electorate and parliament.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,561
    Nigel Farage quits Ukip over its anti-Muslim 'fixation'...

    I'm sorry, Nigel. Are your "we are the best and screw everybody else" politics getting out of hand? Have you corrupted too many brains? Or are you running away with your tail between your legs now that your beloved Brexit has turned the UK into a mess? We let your people go; now go ahead and survive the hardship of the desert on your own, Moses.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,459
    I hope this is stopped. Just stopped. New referendum okay. But stop this process. And of course all the corruption and lies/false stories needs to be exposed. It is almost too far gone.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Why is it that things cannot just go back to what they were before the UK joined? I understand some things take a while to get dismantled and rearranged, but perhaps a divorce deal should have been settled beforehand?

    The UK joined the EU 45 years ago. Like the 60 year old man getting divorced and hoping to regain his youth, it ain't gonna happen
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