Spectre Gunbarrel ***Spoilers***

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  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    Yes and ironically I think Craig has filmed more gunbarrels than any other Bond to date.

    Yeah, by far. He has twice as many as the next person on the list (Roger Moore). He's the only actor to feature a new gunbarrel per movie, and I have a feeling it will stay that way for Bond 25.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    Yes and ironically I think Craig has filmed more gunbarrels than any other Bond to date.

    Yeah, by far. He has twice as many as the next person on the list (Roger Moore). He's the only actor to feature a new gunbarrel per movie, and I have a feeling it will stay that way for Bond 25.

    A clear admission from all involved that they just can't get it right.

    I actually think it might be something about Dan. Only in his CR one does he nail it. In all the others his turn and shot are awful like he's been rendered in CGI. He just doesn't seem able to make it seem fluid and natural I think the GB from the GE N64 might be better than any of Dan's.

    I even prefer Sean's 'balancing precariously on a tightrope' stance to Dan's last three.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    @TheWizardOffice - I, too, don't think they've ever got it perfect for Craig. His best walk/turn/shoot is probably SF. QoS is an embarrassment and is better left unmentioned, and SP is mediocre at best.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,021
    Long gone are the days when we got perfect GB's like in the Dalton era.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    Moore's second gunbarrel, along with Dalton's and Brosnan's, had a fluidity to them that absolutely no other gunbarrel in history had. Craig seems like he's trying too hard to emulate the Bonds of the past in his gunbarrels. He needs to focus on leaving his own mark.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited March 2016 Posts: 9,117
    I guess you have to level a lot of blame at the directors in each instance.

    If it was me I would get him to walk up and down doing it all day long until we got a good take. Although maybe they did this and Dan just can't nail it?

    The thing is it's not like it's even just the walk. The GB design, the music, the gravity defying blood that flows too fast have all not been up to scratch in the Craig era. Not to mention being at the end of the film.

    As far as I'm concerned the only positive about the SP GB is that it's at the beginning.

    And is there a single person out there who prefers the student filmmaker pretension of the 'dead are alive' subtitle rather than opening on the film?
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    Oh, that was hideous. They should have just had the circle transition into the film.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,021
    I guess you have to level a lot of blame at the directors in each instance.

    If it was me I would get him to walk up and down doing it all day long until we got a good take. Although maybe they did this and Dan just can't nail it?

    The thing is it's not like it's even just the walk. The GB design, the music, the gravity defying blood that flows too fast have all not been up to scratch in the Craig era. Not to mention being at the end of the film.

    As far as I'm concerned the only positive about the SP GB is that it's at the beginning.

    And is there a single person out there who prefers the student filmmaker pretension of the 'dead are alive' subtitle rather than opening on the film?

    Yes, Sam Mendes :))
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    I remember someone mentioned in the leaks thread that the gunbarrel ended by exiting out of one of the skeleton's eye sockets. Different and sounds better than what we got.

    Mendes over thinks things sometimes and under thinks other times. Simple is sometimes better.
  • Posts: 4,325
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    I remember someone mentioned in the leaks thread that the gunbarrel ended by exiting out of one of the skeleton's eye sockets. Different and sounds better than what we got.

    Mendes over thinks things sometimes and under thinks other times. Simple is sometimes better.

    Yeah I believe the 'The Dead Are Alive' supertitle was put in literally weeks before the film premiered.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    tanaka123 wrote: »
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    I remember someone mentioned in the leaks thread that the gunbarrel ended by exiting out of one of the skeleton's eye sockets. Different and sounds better than what we got.

    Mendes over thinks things sometimes and under thinks other times. Simple is sometimes better.

    Yeah I believe the 'The Dead Are Alive' supertitle was put in literally weeks before the film premiered.

    At the risk of asking a stupid question: why?

    What did it add? Did he really think the 'subtle' double meaning of the day of the dead and Franz Oberhauser was really worth f**king up the GB yet again?

    He's clearly a clever guy so why did he think this added any value at all? Especially given all the criticism he got for the previous GB positioning. You'd think he'd have gone out of his way to get it right this time round.

    I guess he was too preoccupied with ordering every last stick of TNT available in Morocco for his world record explosion and planning his Goodfellas shot to attend to such mundane things as getting the basics right or worrying about a coherent script.
  • Posts: 4,325
    tanaka123 wrote: »
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    I remember someone mentioned in the leaks thread that the gunbarrel ended by exiting out of one of the skeleton's eye sockets. Different and sounds better than what we got.

    Mendes over thinks things sometimes and under thinks other times. Simple is sometimes better.

    Yeah I believe the 'The Dead Are Alive' supertitle was put in literally weeks before the film premiered.

    At the risk of asking a stupid question: why?

    What did it add? Did he really think the 'subtle' double meaning of the day of the dead and Franz Oberhauser was really worth f**king up the GB yet again?

    He's clearly a clever guy so why did he think this added any value at all? Especially given all the criticism he got for the previous GB positioning. You'd think he'd have gone out of his way to get it right this time round.

    I guess he was too preoccupied with ordering every last stick of TNT available in Morocco for his world record explosion and planning his Goodfellas shot to attend to such mundane things as getting the basics right or worrying about a coherent script.

    To be honest I kinda like it.
  • Posts: 47
    I think I know one thing that ruins the Craig Barrels. They freeze him too early. In both SF and SP he appears stiff because he gets frozen mid stance as if that not naturally where he would stop moving.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Perhaps it time to go back to an unknown figure walking across the screen? ;)
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,021
    Just use Dalton on Craig's GBs :))
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Just use Dalton on Craig's GBs :))

    Can't argue with that. Dalts is sublime in the GB. How about CGI-ing Dan's head onto Tim's walk?

    And I know Simmons, Sean, Laz and Rog all wore a suit but I prefer the tux we have had since TSWLM.
  • Posts: 12,679
    I thought the SP gunbarrel was alright aside from the pointless "dead are alive" thing. But honestly that didn't bother me as much as it would have done because I was just grateful they at least put it in the right place again.

    Oh well. guess maybe for Bond 25 they'll finally get it right again, fourth time lucky. TWINE is the last time we had a classic gunbarrel in the right place without a needless addition like a CGI bullet or a pretentious caption. I can forgive CR for this though as the way they used the gunbarrel to segue into the opening titles was fresh and brilliant. Even in QoS it was wearing thin but I guess there's a vague thematic reason. The gunbarrel not being at the start of SF though (the fucking 50th anniversary film) is unforgivable. That should have been the binder design (maybe even with a golden tint? Or is that too on the nose?) with one of John Barry's gb themes to celebrate the 50th, not another rushed subpar job at the end. I thought SP's was alright though. It annoyed me how you can clearly see the gun while he's walking and the quote was stupid but I liked the music, the design was alright and I liked Craig's stance.

    Brosnan has my favourite gunbarrel walk and stance. It's no nonsense, just walk, turn, dead, but unlike QoS (which went for a similar approach) it doesn't feel rushed. I think the best GB score though is definitely the Goldfinger one. I think it's perfect and honestly I would've been content if they just stuck with that for all the other films. The strings during the walk makes it an improvement on the FRWL one but they still kept the theme as a guitar riff, which I think just sounds better.
  • Posts: 4,325
    I don't think they got the gunbarrel quite right in Spectre. In QoS and SF I'd rather thay didn't have it all than shoehorning it in at the end.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    The thing is, the gunbarrel iris was supposed to be opening up to the skeleton's face. I don't know how and why the change happened. Or perhaps it was the "creativity" of Sam Mendes that got in the way.
  • edited March 2016 Posts: 1,817
    None of the Craig gunbarrels are acceptable. CR's was fine on its own but set a terrible precedent. Gunbarrels didn't have to be at the start anymore.

    QoS's gunbarrel, apart from being at the end, was awful. It's rushed, which might actually be appropriate to sum up the entire film. It is the worst gunbarrel of the series.

    SF's gunbarrel is a bit more honourable but I see no reason why the gunbarrel couldn't have been at the start.

    SP's is back at the front but it's just sloppy. You can see the gun as he walks. There is no shaking of the iris, no segue into the next scene. Instead we get a delicious Mendes motif that no one wanted!!! Why?

    Collectively speaking Craig's gunbarrels are bottom of the barrel (see what I did there?), right down there with DAD and Lazenby's treadmill/kneel-down gunbarrel.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    None of the Craig gunbarrels are acceptable. CR's was fine on its own but set a terrible precedent. Gunbarrels didn't have to be at the start anymore.

    QoS's gunbarrel, apart from being at the end, was awful. It's rushed, which might actually be appropriate to sum up the entire film. It is the worst gunbarrel of the series.

    SF's gunbarrel is a bit more honourable but I see no reason why the gunbarrel couldn't have been at the start.

    SP's is back at the front but it's just sloppy. You can see the gun as he walks. There is no shaking of the iris, no segue into the next scene. Instead we get a delicious Mendes motif that no one wanted!!! Why?

    Collectively speaking Craig's gunbarrels are bottom of the barrel (see what I did there?), right down there with DAD and Lazenby's treadmill/kneel-down gunbarrel.

    This.

    Would just add that there's no honour in SF's GB though.

    They use a crappy design despite then using the classic design straight afterwards for the 50th logo ??!?? WTF? Where's the logic there?

    In addition we are stuck with it at the end because Sam Mendes poncey opening shot is more important than respect for Bond heritage.
    Same is true in SP. The GB has to be spoiled to induldge Sam's pretentiousness.

    Ranking the Craig GBs (which is kind of like ranking your favourite dog turds or episodes of Mrs Brown's boys) I would go:

    1. CR - by light years. Actually right up there as one of the best despite me not really liking the design of the GB.
    2. SP - At the start and slightly better design but still plenty wrong with it.
    3. SF - All that can be said for it is it's not quite as appalling as QOS.
    QOS - Appalling.

    Who do we think has final say over the GB? The director, EON or Kleinmann?

    From what Mendes has said the director gets to say where it's positioned.

    As for the design does Kleinmann just do what he wants it is he instructed to come up with what the director wants?

    Shouldn't EON pull rank over everyone and say 'It goes at the start, the iris opens on the film and we're using the design from the Brosnan era. That's contractual Sam.'
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,143
    I'm just glad the GB was at the beginning and looked like Binder's design. I don't know what they were thinking with QoS and SF.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    They were trying to update the gunbarrel design but it seemed plain wrong, especially the one with Skyfall. They're slowly coming to their senses and no Mendes means we might get a relevant Bond gunbarrel (and a film that doesn't alter character backgrounds).
  • As far as I'm concerned, the bad gunbarrels are OHMSS, DAD, QOS, SF and SP.

    Some gunbarrels have slight issues: DN-FRWL-GF (because there is no Sean Connery and they don't segue), DAF and AVTAK are a bit bizarre, TSWLM and MR are mistimed in their shots, FYEO doesn't segue perfectly, CR was fine but set a precedent unfortunately.

    Rest of the gunbarrels are perfect. Note that we have not had a perfect gunbarrel since TWINE.

    My personal favourite is LTK because of the suspense, and GE is a close runner-up.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Agreed. Licence To Kill's gunbarrel is intense and puts you in the shoes of Bond as Kamen's music plays and Dalton walks in the iris all too confidently before turning to shoot.
  • Posts: 1,310
    There's no reason not to have the gun barrel traditionally open on the skull's face - hell, the shot is practically made for that. "The Dead are Alive" is film school nonsense.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    As far as I'm concerned, the bad gunbarrels are OHMSS, DAD, QOS, SF and SP.

    Some gunbarrels have slight issues: DN-FRWL-GF (because there is no Sean Connery and they don't segue), DAF and AVTAK are a bit bizarre, TSWLM and MR are mistimed in their shots, FYEO doesn't segue perfectly, CR was fine but set a precedent unfortunately.

    Rest of the gunbarrels are perfect. Note that we have not had a perfect gunbarrel since TWINE.

    My personal favourite is LTK because of the suspense, and GE is a close runner-up.

    Interesting. DN/FRWL/GF have are quite overdramatic with the jump and slow walking, and Bob Simmons even puts his feet outside of the circle. A rather poor performance from a stuntman, to be honest, but I guess it's a distinctly 60's (perhaps even 50's) sequence. I like the iconic stance at the end (even with Simmons' misplaced foot) and the film noir ambience.

    I'm surprised you didn't mention TB being weird. The shaking of the circle and seguing into the PTS is flat out bad. In fact, the film starts even as the circle is shaking. Obviously it's their first attempt at seguing a gunbarrel into the PTS, but still, it's not the best. Connery's gunbarrels in general are a bit strange and almost a bit too effeminate for Connery (his final stance, that is).

    TSWLM/MR have the shot sounds (there's no actual shot) coming after the blood, but I believe that's only in some versions. In some versions, the shot sound effect was edited to precede the blood flow. Interesting that you didn't mention Moore practically missing the gunbarrel in LALD and TMWTGG. Or the blue circles in the latter.

    I agree with the rest, though.
  • As far as I'm concerned, the bad gunbarrels are OHMSS, DAD, QOS, SF and SP.

    Some gunbarrels have slight issues: DN-FRWL-GF (because there is no Sean Connery and they don't segue), DAF and AVTAK are a bit bizarre, TSWLM and MR are mistimed in their shots, FYEO doesn't segue perfectly, CR was fine but set a precedent unfortunately.

    Rest of the gunbarrels are perfect. Note that we have not had a perfect gunbarrel since TWINE.

    My personal favourite is LTK because of the suspense, and GE is a close runner-up.

    Interesting. DN/FRWL/GF have are quite overdramatic with the jump and slow walking, and Bob Simmons even puts his feet outside of the circle. A rather poor performance from a stuntman, to be honest, but I guess it's a distinctly 60's (perhaps even 50's) sequence. I like the iconic stance at the end (even with Simmons' misplaced foot) and the film noir ambience.

    I'm surprised you didn't mention TB being weird. The shaking of the circle and seguing into the PTS is flat out bad. In fact, the film starts even as the circle is shaking. Obviously it's their first attempt at seguing a gunbarrel into the PTS, but still, it's not the best. Connery's gunbarrels in general are a bit strange and almost a bit too effeminate for Connery (his final stance, that is).

    TSWLM/MR have the shot sounds (there's no actual shot) coming after the blood, but I believe that's only in some versions. In some versions, the shot sound effect was edited to precede the blood flow. Interesting that you didn't mention Moore practically missing the gunbarrel in LALD and TMWTGG. Or the blue circles in the latter.

    I agree with the rest, though.

    You are right about TB in that the shaking of the circle and the PTS segue is bad. It is bad. But I don't find that to be as much as an issue as the others. Certainly is not perfect though, you're right. Reflectively, DAF isn't so bad either but the reflect/shine of the barrel is a throw-off.

    What you say about TSWLM and MR might be right, but I wouldn't know.

    I am not quite sure what you mean about LALD and TMWTGG, even after rewatching it, the aim is slightly to the side I guess but not really (and you wouldn't know it either given that he shoots quite quickly). I confess that I have no idea what you mean about blue circles. And a bigger failing with those two gunbarrels is that the iris shakes too much, when it shakes to the left Moore is almost completely out of view.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    edited March 2016 Posts: 1,984
    @OHMSS - The shiny/gloss effect is present in OHMSS as well, and it's even worse since it doesn't move and just sits there, even after the blood comes down. In DAF, the shiny effect moves around and is erased by the blood wash.

    As for blue circles, in the original theatrical release of 1974, the gunbarrel in The Man With The Golden Gun had blue dots opening up to the gunbarrel, rather than the traditional white ones. I'm not sure why.
  • Posts: 4,325
    Yes I have TMWTGG on VHS, DVD and Blu Ray - they're all white except I think on the DVD where they are blue.
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