What next for Madeleine Swann

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  • gumboltgumbolt Now with in-office photocopier
    Posts: 153
    Unless she dies offscreen of natural causes, leaving Bond to decide it wasn't to be and return to MI6 but AFTER he has dealt with the immediate grief. Then the film can touch on deeper themes like fate as the plot develops. But it would be a bit soap opera and "mamby pamby". But it also avoids showing a freshly grieving Bond because he turned on the waterworks when Dench croaked it, he'll probably have a total breakdown if his wife/serious bird snuffs it. It is quite a dilemma and I wonder if Eon either did not think this angle through, or did and they know exactly what they are doing. I wonder if the actress is on a contractual option like Waltz apparently is?
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,417
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Making her a villain would be complete rubbish. My idea: like Tiffany Case in the novels, have her fall out of love for Bond. Mention that the relationship has broken down, or even show it onscreen briefly. Breakups, especially when the couple has been through so much, can be even more poignant than death.
    Murdock wrote: »
    Have something dangerous happen with Her and Bond, she can't take it, he doesn't want to live without the thrill and she leaves him Gala Brand style and he goes back to MI6 like clockwork. No death, no she's actually a villain twist. Like Bond and Camille they kiss and separate.

    I'm down with this. Personally, I would prefer something like Fleming's FRWL when Bond discusses Tiffany and their break up.

    Although it would be interesting to see Bond and Dr. Swann have a go at being in a relationship. Maybe something along the lines of Fleming's Bond views on hypocrisy regrading the "inevitable" breakup of their union (taken from the novel DAF I believe?). Bond isn't happy, Swann sees it, ergo she calls it off. All set against a typically Bondian escapade...


    In one of the John Gardner books Bond got serious about a girl and at the end she was in a coma. In the next book Bond used to visit her and I think in the end had to turn the machine off. Different but I don't want Bond films reduced to some tearjerking melodrama with him sat at a hospital bed.

    Probably the best way out of it is to have a scene with Bond and MP at the start with him sat drinking vodka and saying it didn't work out.

    Careful dear Wiz. They've lifted a passage from Colonel Sun, so they are open to pilfering the continuation novels. Best not give them any ideas, you don't know who's watching this forum...
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    royale65 wrote: »
    Careful dear Wiz. They've lifted a passage from Colonel Sun, so they are open to pilfering the continuation novels. Best not give them any ideas, you don't know who's watching this forum...

    Well EON's lawyers it would seem if the rather panicky new thread just started by @DarthDimi about posting copyrighted pictures from Bond films is anything to go by!
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,417
    Exactly. Doubtless they'll get P+W to write the script, and the lawyers and they will discuss it over the water cooler...
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    royale65 wrote: »
    Exactly. Doubtless they'll get P+W to write the script, and the lawyers and they will discuss it over the water cooler...

    Watch yourself there son. Any slagging off of P&W carries a sentence of 20 years hard labour in Kim Jong Babs totalitarian state.

    I'm steering well clear of the SP bluray thread from here on in case the EON Stasi come for me in the night for criticism of the regime.

  • gumbolt wrote: »
    Unless she dies offscreen of natural causes, leaving Bond to decide it wasn't to be and return to MI6 but AFTER he has dealt with the immediate grief. Then the film can touch on deeper themes like fate as the plot develops. But it would be a bit soap opera and "mamby pamby". But it also avoids showing a freshly grieving Bond because he turned on the waterworks when Dench croaked it, he'll probably have a total breakdown if his wife/serious bird snuffs it. It is quite a dilemma and I wonder if Eon either did not think this angle through, or did and they know exactly what they are doing. I wonder if the actress is on a contractual option like Waltz apparently is?

    I thought of something like this too. That way she'd be out of the picture, but there'd be no one to blame. No one to get revenge on. It'd be interesting.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I love you, @TheWizardOfIce. Just thought I'd make that clear. =))
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    edited January 2016 Posts: 7,314
    As much as I hate the cliche of killing her off, I'm not sure how else they could effectively handle the situation unless she is the main Bond girl once again. The problem, as others have noted, is that SP builds her up to such great heights as "the only one who could truly understand him" and insinuating that Bond has quit his job to be with her at the end of the film.

    If Blofeld wasn't returning then maybe you could get away with a quick mention of their breakup. I love the idea of that happening someday as well but if they do it with Madeleine then they'd be ignoring crucial elements of the last film. Which wouldn't be the first time in Bond history, granted. It would just make SP look like a mistake that needed to be swept under the rug.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    SP is Bond's happy ending before the new reset.
    Or- it's the start of a new dead horse being beaten.
    OR- they will surprise the s&@t out of us!!

    Who knows....?
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    Unless she dies offscreen of natural causes,

    This was my idea too. Just have her die in a car crash or something similarly tragic yet mundane.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    Sark wrote: »
    Unless she dies offscreen of natural causes,

    This was my idea too. Just have her die in a car crash or something similarly tragic yet mundane.
    Even then though Dan would be in 'broken' mode again....
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    I think the first 120 minutes of CR counter that claim.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Sark wrote: »
    I think the first 120 minutes of CR counter that claim.

    One of my favorites. I get what you're saying, broken may be the incorrect word, but he's certainly on edge through most of the picture, and that is when Craig shines. That is closer to what I meant. Let's say, conflicted. His nonchalance in this last feature did not serve the picture, or the character, well.
    I agree with you. Personally, I like him conflicted, as you say. It suits him well. Nonchalant was done far better by some of his predecessors, imho.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Birdleson wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Nonchalant was done far better by some of his predecessors, imho.

    I would venture to say all of them, with the possible exception of Dalton. Craig is still my number two or three guy in the role, but after SP I understand what his limitations are.
    Again, I completely agree.
  • edited January 2016 Posts: 1,631
    Birdleson wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Nonchalant was done far better by some of his predecessors, imho.

    I would venture to say all of them, with the possible exception of Dalton. Craig is still my number two or three guy in the role, but after SP I understand what his limitations are.

    I'd say all of them as well, Dalton included, recognizing that this particular trait isn't one that Dalton particularly excels at.

    Craig's version of non-chalant comes across, for parts of the film, as boredom. Now, I can't say that I particularly blame him, as he had to know he was working with poor material, but it's there in a way that, aside from Connery's understandable frustration while working on You Only Live Twice, we haven't really seen before.

  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    Ah, then I misunderstood Birdleson. I thought by broken you meant how he was after vesper died and pretty much the entirety of SF.
  • Posts: 1,680
    I am willing to bet she is not seen or barely mentioned again.

    Just like Camille in QOS.
  • Posts: 1,631
    I think they have to at least mention her in the next one. It wasn't necessary to revisit Camille following the events of Quantum of Solace, as the story didn't demand it. But, if they bring back Blofeld for the next one, they have to at least mention the woman that Bond seemingly decided to quit his job for and ride off into the sunset with.
  • Posts: 14,799
    pachazo wrote: »
    As much as I hate the cliche of killing her off, I'm not sure how else they could effectively handle the situation unless she is the main Bond girl once again. The problem, as others have noted, is that SP builds her up to such great heights as "the only one who could truly understand him" and insinuating that Bond has quit his job to be with her at the end of the film.

    If Blofeld wasn't returning then maybe you could get away with a quick mention of their breakup. I love the idea of that happening someday as well but if they do it with Madeleine then they'd be ignoring crucial elements of the last film. Which wouldn't be the first time in Bond history, granted. It would just make SP look like a mistake that needed to be swept under the rug.

    Two words: Tiffany Case. In the novels Bond mentions their relationship didn't work out.
  • Posts: 3,164
    Considering that it's likely that B25 will the the last of the Craig era, my two cents/idea would be obviously a modern YOLT adaptation - sort of taking a similar approach to the material as Campbell and Co did with CR and tying the main story arc in.

    As some already suggested before - open with something like Blofeld escaping or, as one interesting theory I saw elsewhere suggested, have someone from higher up (Haines maybe?) force M to release Blofeld when he threatens to blackmail. Then Bond/Madeleine in an idyllic location and then she is kidnapped by SPECTRE operatives - probably when someone from MI6 like Tanner visits him and then they'd be also killed. Roll title sequence and only after, when Bond returns to MI6 does M 'reveal' to him that Madeleine is dead (so Bond doesn't go off looking for her) and urges Bond not to go off hunting for revenge like he did after Vesper. He then assigns Bond a seemingly unrelated mission in Japan and off we go with YOLT...obviously with changes to fit today's perspectives I.e. not have Bond disguise him self as a Japanese worker etc. As that plot is running, we can then have the B-plot of M, Moneypenny and Q working together to find and rescue Madeleine, who is actually alive.

    Then at the end, have her go with the MI6 team to Japan to reuinte with Bond once he defeats Blofeld, but then Bond will have lost his memory....which actually thinking about it would be a chilling callback to the torture scene in SP - "he dies not knowing who you are", and then end the Craig era with the rest of MI6 apart from M, MP and Q, believing him dead, while he lives an idyllic life with Madeleine as he does with Kissy in the book.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    My hope;
    SP was how it ends for Craig's Bond. Do another reboot with the next Bond.

    My fear;
    They kill off Madeleine and have a revenge plot. As others have said, this would be beating a dead horse and starting over the same story arc from CR. These so called "intence" and "serious" elements grew old, tired, and clichéd far faster than anything in the Connery through Brosnan era. My hope is that they won't do this since it would essentially be a remake of OHMSS and they have said that they won't do remakes.

    Secret possibility number 3;
    ?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    Birdleson wrote: »
    My hope;
    SP was how it ends for Craig's Bond. Do another reboot with the next Bond.

    That is also where head's at now. I wouldn't have imagined it four months ago.

    Wow, suddenly too much agreement here. I'm going to another thread where I can disagree in peace.
  • Posts: 1,631
    antovolk wrote: »
    Considering that it's likely that B25 will the the last of the Craig era, my two cents/idea would be obviously a modern YOLT adaptation - sort of taking a similar approach to the material as Campbell and Co did with CR and tying the main story arc in.

    As some already suggested before - open with something like Blofeld escaping or, as one interesting theory I saw elsewhere suggested, have someone from higher up (Haines maybe?) force M to release Blofeld when he threatens to blackmail. Then Bond/Madeleine in an idyllic location and then she is kidnapped by SPECTRE operatives - probably when someone from MI6 like Tanner visits him and then they'd be also killed. Roll title sequence and only after, when Bond returns to MI6 does M 'reveal' to him that Madeleine is dead (so Bond doesn't go off looking for her) and urges Bond not to go off hunting for revenge like he did after Vesper. He then assigns Bond a seemingly unrelated mission in Japan and off we go with YOLT...obviously with changes to fit today's perspectives I.e. not have Bond disguise him self as a Japanese worker etc. As that plot is running, we can then have the B-plot of M, Moneypenny and Q working together to find and rescue Madeleine, who is actually alive.

    Then at the end, have her go with the MI6 team to Japan to reuinte with Bond once he defeats Blofeld, but then Bond will have lost his memory....which actually thinking about it would be a chilling callback to the torture scene in SP - "he dies not knowing who you are", and then end the Craig era with the rest of MI6 apart from M, MP and Q, believing him dead, while he lives an idyllic life with Madeleine as he does with Kissy in the book.

    I like this idea. It's a creative way around the corner they painted themselves into with Spectre.

    One tweak I might make to it would be for Bond to actually be the one to go after Madeleine and leave Q, M, and Moneypenny back in London. Maybe it's tweaked in a way where Bond veers off his current assignment because he finds some reason to believe that Madeleine is alive in Japan, giving him reason to disobey the mission given to him by M because he's believed her to be dead based on what M has told him.

    I'm not sure how it would ultimately go, haven't given it that much thought, but Bond's pursuit of Madeleine would lead him to Blofeld and his castle and garden of death. Bond could free Madeleine and kill Blofeld but sustain the injuries that lead to his amnesia and the ending that you've described, with Bond not recognizing her and them being forced to either move forward under that new reality or go their own separate ways in an extremely heartbreaking fashion. This way, in the course of events in the film, he'd know that Madeleine was alive, therefore adding to the heartbreak of the ending.

  • Posts: 1,680
    They will change it up for the next one.
  • gumboltgumbolt Now with in-office photocopier
    Posts: 153
    Turns out she is actually Judi Dench's M's daughter and that M and Mr White had an affair and that MS now has the power to... No. Stop. Deep breath. And relax.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited January 2016 Posts: 5,921
    At the beginning of Bond 25, she wakes up in bed tousled but lovely.

    She turns to her lover: "I just had the craziest dream. You were in a fight to the death with your foster brother over LeChiffre, Vesper, White, Silva, M, and possibly Greene. It didn't make sense that they were all jumbled together, but it was so vivid."

    He says: "That's crazy. No more glüwein for you before bed, darling."

    "Whatever you say, Franz."

    As he leans in to kiss her, we see that her lover is Oberhauser, without the scar and decidedly not Blofeld.

    ***

    Or, more likely, they'll open with the brutal killing of Swann by Blofeld, sending Bond into a tailspin (he confuses Vesper with Swann, etc.). M sends him on one last desperate mission, Magic 44 (although it occurs to me that Nine Eyes is not dissimilar to Magic 44). Bond finds Bunt and Blofeld (who, like Bond, has gone a bit crazy), leading to the inevitable and fatal showdown with Blofeld at the end. Stir in a modern Kissy Suzuki and an amnesiac trek to Russia, and let Craig go out on the bittersweet ending at which he excels.

    The real question will be if they carry over M, Moneypenny, and Q to the next Bond actor.
  • Posts: 1,296
    I don't even care anymore what happens next so long as it's intense, angry and personal.

    Reading this thread, what such creative minds, we need to see more fanfiction here. :)
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    intense, angry and personal.
    Because we haven't gotten that before in Craig's tenure.
  • Posts: 1,296
    gumbolt wrote: »
    Turns out she is actually Judi Dench's M's daughter and that M and Mr White had an affair and that MS now has the power to... No. Stop. Deep breath. And relax.
    Madelene has the power to do what? Please tell us this sounds amazing.
  • edited January 2016 Posts: 11,119
    Let Madeleine Swann have a short, but very remarkable and dramatic cameo. And I'm not talking about killing her off.

    Everyone who read the novels "Trigger Mortis" (Pussy Galore) and "From Russia With Love" (Tiffany Case) know how Bond dealt with a love relation break-up. Especially in "Trigger Mortis" this is very nicely done. I would love to see some proper relationship turmoil, followed by a sad and teary Madeleine saying: "Then this is it James! Time to pack my bags :-< ".

    It's something that has never been done before in a Bond film. And let's face it, Bond can't have a long-lasting love relationship. Especially not in an ongoing big franchise, in which continuity has become pivotal as well. Screenplay writers can obviously turn this into a tense verbal fight between Craig and Seydoux. It also makes sense, as in "SPECTRE" Swann was already doubting a relationship with Bond.

    So what I just said makes sense. Spend like 5 to 7 minutes on a believable send-off of the character Madeleine Swann. And put this scene shortly after the main titles sequence or after a mission briefing in London. Then you can bring in the entire core plot and (villain's) scheme in a fresh and believable way, without all the personal background stuff dwelling on during the entire movie.
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