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I agree again. Not only was Luke's lightsaber toss a stand in for the film, but also Kylo's line to Rey. "Let the past die. Kill it. If you have to. That's the only way to become what you were meant to be"
For me, the Snoke ending didn't quite work (although the entire sequence was great fun). He's strong with the force after all. Not an apprentice. Why didn't he sense it coming, after boasting about structuring the whole dynamic between Rey and Ren? Unless of course he planned it, and that is set up for a reveal in SW-9.
I mean Holdo sacrificed herself but no one gave a shit about her. The only reason I even noticed her at all over any of the other new characters is because I was like "oh hey, that's Laura Dern, we haven't seen her in a while!"
Edit - Although I do agree it was hard to really care about Holdo because we barely knew her.
I have seen some (probably unlikely) suggestion that the casino sequence was intended as a setup for the new trilogy Johnson is creating.
Good catch on that line, @bondjames. Had missed that.
Yes, there's always the possibility that some of this looks even better post-SW9. Given Johnson's blank slate, though, I wonder if Abrams will have a more difficult time wrapping things up? TLJ felt very much unlike the 'second act' SW films we've come to know, in particular the ending. The characters are backed up against a wall...but that's vaguely it. Each of AOTC and ESB anticipated more clearing the beginning of the next, or even the events which might occur between that film and the next. TPM and TFA did as well. TLJ seems the most open-ended ending since the original.
TLJ is a prime example of not enough.
The movie is daft in so many ways. Disney have dropped the ball.
I'm still a bit confused by the Snoke situation. For a Master Dark Side Force player (who boasted only a few minutes earlier about manipulating emotions and what not), I can't quite comprehend how he missed the incoming betrayal. Perhaps there's more to it.
Also, I'm not quite certain that Kylo is all bad. He has issues with Luke for obvious reasons, but perhaps Rey is right. Adam Driver is far and away the best thing in the film imho. This is how you show deference to the Dark Side (unlike that miscast whiner from the prequels).
Also the PC and political brown-nosing is a bit transparent, but then again I realize this is Disney and they have to set a wholesome example. I just wish I couldn't see through it so readily. A bit more subtlety next time around wouldn't go unappreciated by this viewer.
The more criticism I read online, the more apparent the (seemingly) massive amount of faulty story logic becomes. Some of what's been noted I took in at the time (such as Snoke) but there's been some other head-scratching items pointed out that, in the moment, I didn't care about -- which is as it should be, imo. It's that Hitchcock thing of not giving the audience too much time to think, just going with it. I worry I've slightly biased myself for the next viewing, however, having taken in all the commentary.
The main plot, by any films standards, waiting for fuel to run out when they where in touching distance anyway, was ludicrous.
Add in all the 'Star Warsy' stuff that the film ruined and it goes even further into the abyss.
Just watch Spaceballs instead if you want a Star Wars spoof.
After contemplating The Last Jedi, and likeing it a lot more, every scene with him (& Rose) is what I'd cut from the film :(
Planet Vegas was like Prequel territory, as bad as the '50's diner' from AOTC only longer
On another note, can someone help clarify something for me? I only have one viewing under my belt, and could easily have missed something. I loved the flashback that showed Luke with his green saber; we got what happened that night from his perspective & Kylo's. I gather that Luke felt the Dark Side in Kylo/Ben, and in a moment of weakness, gave serious thought to killing him in his sleep, but ultimately wasn't going to. That's pretty dark. From Kylo's point of view, he woke up just in time to see Luke looming over him.
So my question is: THAT'S IT?? That's what this whole thing was about? Because unless they show some more in Episode IX what led up to that, Kylo seemed pretty innocent and Luke was the bad guy.
Did Luke consider, I don't know, talking to him? I mean, this is the guy who brought Vader back to the light. Just something that's been bugging me.
There is definitely a lot of faulty logic in the new one. Ultimately, I think it's best if one just absorbs this as a high production quality popcorn flick and not try to overthink it. I realize that it will be difficult to do for many of us who grew up with this story, but in retrospect this was perhaps inevitable, given the current franchise caretakers and their priorities (namely future spin offs and films).
That's it @Master_Dahark. Nothing more to it. Yes it struck me as a bit simplistic as well. Perhaps they didn't want to elaborate given the conceptual similarities to the prequels (Anakin's turn to the dark side).
At the end of the day, I think the key message of this film is that the force is for everyone. It's certainly a desirable (but also somewhat 'in vogue' at this particular time) message of egalitarianism. Everything else is subservient to that message.
With that in mind, my two boys just did not take to the movie "too intense, too long, too much going on". (their body language at around 2 hours sad it all) And I have to say, I agree with them. The originals had very simple stories and a lightness of touch (even the second one). This latest attempt seems to be far too adult and serious IMHO with too much beng squeezed in. Humour comes via flimsy one liners and are really badly timed in terms of their placement within the film.
So while TFA was a lazy retread, by doing so, it did retain some of the lightness and some of the early magic. TLJ attempts to be far more imaginative which I respect but it does not pull it off.
I know I'm in a minority but RO got the balance right with a very simple heist movie with a small team. Leading to a rollocking adventure with a classic three part structure and a well defined climax: all within a shorter running time.
My friend thought it was 'watchable' no major complaints. My only complaint second time around, was that the scenes with Finn and Rose could have been cut and it would have been a better movie entirely.
But IRJ could not thik any other use for the chatacter of Finn.
Much better to have a smaller cast and give them more time, giving other characters a break and we look forward to them coming back - wasted.
The whole Fin/Rose story line made little sense and what did it add to the movie? Really strange.
A related question: what do we think about the Knights of Ren? Lots of speculation after TFA about the scene Rey saw in the rain being from the night the temple was destroyed. Apparently not. Perhaps it'll be something for IX? I always thought the glimpse Rey got in TFA would be more interesting as a flashforward than a flashback, so I think it'd be neat to have that scene coming.
Yes, true, good suggestion. At the moment I am very much looking forward to watching the old ones again. Its been years since I've seen certain ones, let alone marathoned them.
A very good point, and one which I'd somehow not even considered till now. Imagining myself in a kid's place I can certainly see why your boys reacted that way. TLJ does seem skewed to an audience with the luxury of knowing the franchise well (i.e. subverting tropes etc.). TFA, as you note, managed to be both fresh for its new audience and evocative for its old.
I do like RO (it's the best film Disney has made with the SW property I think) but it also felt to me like it might have gravitated toward an older audience. I'll have to take note when I rewatch (only seen it twice).
"Why did you like RO?"
"Because the goodies were the goodies and the badies were the badies"
I think they have overdone things with the uncertainty re the dark side and characters turning one way and then another. Kids need to know who to cheer for and who to boo. The originals were always described as fairy tales in space and I think thats fair. Its too self indulgent and clever to have characters on the tipping point and its a confusing experience for the younger audience.
What the last 3 have done is to really illustate how clever the 3 originals were in striking the perfect balance. It also shows that the improvement in special effects is pretty meaningless if you dont have a good story and strike the right tone.
One last point (for now), RO had an analogue feel to it as it had to butt right up against the original. But this had the additional effect of evoking the feel of the originals even though most of the characters were new and it was a self contained story.
I actually think it’s a little more smart to build some ambiguity into the good/evil dynamics. It progresses the saga, rather than offering a carbon copy, ala TFA. It’s flawed, but it’s the only movie they’ve made in this era that feels like a ‘proper’ new film, that didn’t heavily trade on nostalgia. It felt like an authentic vision to me.
In the original, Luke was the classic "knight in shining armour" rescuing the Princess and it worked so very well. Obviously, they put twists in but the basic principles of the story were simple to relate to and understand. They are in danger of disappearing up their own backsides and alienating the younger views. It is meant to be fun.
Re empowerment and Rey, what does she do in this movie? Fails to persude Luke to come and help, battles with her own inner demons (battle not over), fails to turn Kylo, co=pilots the Falcon at the end to distract the fighters but Chewy had that under control and then lifts some rocks to make an exit from the cave (a blast from the Falcon could have done that).
We did female empowerment with RO
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EDIT. RE: Female empowerment: It's not so much in the success vs. failure but rather in the positive spirit. Not giving up. Being incorruptible. Thinking rather than shooting first (caution vs. bravado). Self sacrifice (although I'm not sure if 'suicide bombing' is something we want to encourage). It's about motherly feminine energy, as it were. Perhaps 'empowerment' was the wrong word. More like female perspective.
This is why I’m happy for them to steer clear of the originals. They can’t be bettered. Like Bond, I’m happy for them to expand and redefine the parameters. It’s never going to be to everyone’s taste.
For the record, I’d have preferred Rey to join Kylo and then destroy the First Order from within. Can see why it didn’t happen, though.