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Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,040
    Revelator wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I hope that we never hear mention of Vesper again.

    Since the Craig era had its own continuity and had a definite beginning and end, Vesper would not exist in the new Bond's timeline. Since she only existed for Craig-Bond, there would be no reason to mention her in future Bond films, unless we get James Bond: No Way Home. Then all bets are off. CGI Sean Connery could be revealed as the real father of Mathilde, who goes back in time to become the mistress of at least four different Blofelds.

    Incidentally, why are people discussing film novelizations? Those died out 20 years ago.

    I still see them the odd time. Halloween Kills had one.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    I could imagine a new continuity being an amalgamation if the two timelines. A Bond that had both Vesper and Tracy, but no Madeleine. It doesn’t have to take everything from the previous films, but simply acknowledge the new Bond as already having a similar history as his predecessors rather than an exact one.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson
    edited February 2022 Posts: 2,161
    Revelator wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I hope that we never hear mention of Vesper again.

    Since the Craig era had its own continuity and had a definite beginning and end, Vesper would not exist in the new Bond's timeline. Since she only existed for Craig-Bond, there would be no reason to mention her in future Bond films, unless we get James Bond: No Way Home. Then all bets are off. CGI Sean Connery could be revealed as the real father of Mathilde, who goes back in time to become the mistress of at least four different Blofelds.

    I mean in any reboot. We can assume that Connery's Bond had experienced Vesper on his first mission. They could start mid-career with the next guy, he could reflect on "his" Vesper. I wouldn't past EON still not getting over this Vesper thing.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson
    Posts: 2,161
    And then I see that @MakeshiftPython made the same point before I did.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,869
    I think they're gonna go clean slate. The problem with the concept of this Bond having both Vesper and Tracy, is how do you relay that information? Especially with an audience whose not gonna remember them, especially not Tracy.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I think they're gonna go clean slate. The problem with the concept of this Bond having both Vesper and Tracy, is how do you relay that information? Especially with an audience whose not gonna remember them, especially not Tracy.

    A similar manner done in TSWLM. Brief and moving on.

    I wouldn’t mind mentioning Vesper the way Fleming did in the novels where they were also brief and carried on rather than dwelling on it.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson
    edited February 2022 Posts: 2,161
    I think Fleming mentions Vesper twice post-CR.

    -There is the drug induced dream sequence in GF when he muses how awkward it is going to have to be to introduce Tilly to Vesper in Heaven.

    -Then late in the series he mentions (for the first and only time) that he visits her grave annually. Was that in OHMSS?

    Did I miss any?


    The Craig films took it way further.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited February 2022 Posts: 5,869
    Oh of course, but even then, her mention makes sense because Fleming probably expected people to know who she was. I don't know if it'd be the same for Bond 26, and also there's the risk of causing confusion between this and Craig's. Obviously it would just take common sense but we all know what general audiences can be like sometimes...

    ...and it would certainly add fuel to the fire regarding the people who want one timeline.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited February 2022 Posts: 8,025
    DAF alludes to Vesper when Bond is looking at a vinyl record, and decides to skip over the section containing Vesper’s favorite song “ La Vie en Rose” because of “bad memories”.
  • RevelatorRevelator
    Posts: 2,896
    Correct on all counts.

    GF, chapter 16: "There must be a whole lot of them, going up together. Would Tilly be on the same trip? Bond squirmed with embarrassment. How would he introduce her to the others, to Vesper for instance?"

    OHMSS, chapter 2: "He had come a long way since then, dodged many bullets and much death and loved many girls, but there had been a drama and a poignancy about that particular adventure that every year drew him back to Royale and its casino and to the small granite cross in the little churchyard that simply said 'Vesper Lynd. RIP.'"

    While it's true that each Bond could reflect on "his" Vesper, I think folks might then wonder if each Bond has his own version of Madeline as well--if one character from an enclosed timeline can exist in a different one, why can't others? Best to forget both and create a new continuity without them.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson
    edited February 2022 Posts: 2,161
    But that little bit shows that, though significant, her death didn't weigh on him overly either, clouding his world for years to come. I felt that went far beyond reason in the Craig Era.

    "...there had been a drama and a poignancy about that particular adventure that every year drew him back to Royale..."
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    Birdleson wrote: »
    But that little bit shows that, though significant, her death didn't weigh on him overly either, clouding his world for years to come. I felt that went far beyond reason in the Craig Era.

    "...there had been a drama and a poignancy about that particular adventure that every year drew him back to Royale..."

    Ironic considering it was his one and only visit to her grave in NTTD. Had QOS not lay so heavily on Vesper, I think the moments in SP/NTTD would have hit harder.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson
    Posts: 2,161
    Also interesting that Fleming gave us a "... small granite cross in the little churchyard that simply said 'Vesper Lynd. RIP."

    I would have preferred the film had adhered to Fleming's asceticism. What we got struck me as ostentatious.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited February 2022 Posts: 14,991
    It’s a Bond film though, ostentatious is kind of their thing. “Isn’t your island lair a bit ostentatious Scaramanga?” :))

    Python makes a good point: Fleming has Bond visit Vesper’s grave in another country every year whereas Craig’s Bond visits it only once, and that’s in order to say goodbye and never visit again.
  • mattjoesmattjoes
    Posts: 6,747
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I think they're gonna go clean slate. The problem with the concept of this Bond having both Vesper and Tracy, is how do you relay that information? Especially with an audience whose not gonna remember them, especially not Tracy.

    They should show both Tracy and Vesper in the title sequence. They could have some cool animation where a bunch of lines come together and their faces are formed. Hopefully the lyrics would include the word "past" in that part.

    Just let me know beforehand, EON, so I can take a sick bucket to the theater.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,985
    I think that would work, but only if Tracy and Vesper's faces meld together into the face of Judi Dench's M.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,991
    Fans really despise the thing they're fans of, don't they?
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,520
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I hope that we never hear mention of Vesper again.

    Absolutely, hopefully they keep Vesper to Craig's Bond like they did Tracy with the previous Bond's. I'd love to see Gala Brand be used well in the future
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    mtm wrote: »
    Fans really despise the thing they're fans of, don't they?

    It is like an unhealthy relationship.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 13,973
    Guys, I heard a rumour that the working title for Bond26 is 'Vesper'.

    Sounds like the film won't be half bad, and may or may not leave a bitter aftertaste.
  • mattjoesmattjoes
    Posts: 6,747
    QBranch wrote: »
    Guys, I heard a rumour that the working title for Bond26 is 'Vesper'.

    Sounds like the film won't be half bad, and may or may not leave a bitter aftertaste.

    I hope Judi Dench plays Vesper, and Eva Green plays M.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,121
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Fans really despise the thing they're fans of, don't they?

    It is like an unhealthy relationship.

    That’s toxic fandom for you. I know I’m guilty of it. I don’t think James Bond fans are as guilty of it as Star Wars or Harry Potter fans.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 13,973
    mattjoes wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Guys, I heard a rumour that the working title for Bond26 is 'Vesper'.

    Sounds like the film won't be half bad, and may or may not leave a bitter aftertaste.
    I hope Judi Dench plays Vesper, and Eva Green plays M.
    You don't think Eva will be Tracy?
  • Since62Since62
    Posts: 1,571
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I hope that we never hear mention of Vesper again.

    Absolutely, hopefully they keep Vesper to Craig's Bond like they did Tracy with the previous Bond's. I'd love to see Gala Brand be used well in the future

    Understood. Interestingly, there COULD not be mention (or depiction) of Vesper in films prior to CR 06 because the rights were held elsewhere.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    There’s a moment in DN when Honey asks Bond if he ever had a loved one and he hesitates to answer before Quarrel interrupts. Could have been Vesper he was thinking about, if that’s how you wanna view it.
  • Since62Since62
    Posts: 1,571
    Could be ! Apparently, it was not Sylvia Trench ; > Bring back Sylvia Trench ! And, please, a scene, perhap on leaving the club, where a club employee brings her coat out of coat check, and says, "Your coat, Ms. Trench"
  • RevelatorRevelator
    edited February 2022 Posts: 2,896
    mtm wrote: »
    Fleming has Bond visit Vesper’s grave in another country every year whereas Craig’s Bond visits it only once, and that’s in order to say goodbye and never visit again.

    The more significant point is that Fleming did no more than briefly mention Vesper twice in the books that followed Casino Royale, whereas Vesper had a significant presence in three of Craig's subsequent films. Fleming's Bond didn't spend large sections of later novels trying to get over Vesper. It's not even clear if Bond would still visit Vesper's grave if it wasn't in Royale-les-Eaux. Nor does Fleming devote any time to describing Bond's visit to the grave (unlike NTTD)--instead Bond goes to the casino.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    Right, in the book it’s brought up in the sense of having readers catch up with what Bond had been up, rather than presenting Bond at Vesper’s grave in a present tense. It also serves as a prelude to Bond meeting Tracy. I do wonder if Fleming at one point considered having the book open chronologically, with Bond visiting Vesper’s grave so that it bookend with Tracy‘s death.
  • RevelatorRevelator
    Posts: 2,896
    Fleming had reread his earlier books prior to writing GF, which might account for that book's reference to Vesper. OHMSS marked both his 10th anniversary as a thriller writer and a return to traditional basics after the experiment of TSWLM, so it makes sense that the book starts with a return to the scene of the first Bond book and includes a nod to Vesper.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited February 2022 Posts: 2,934
    Vesper's shadow does hang over the Craig era. But most of CraigBond's prime years evidently take place in the gap between QOS and SF, and we don't see anything of them - so there could be half a dozen unmade films where Bond never gave Vesper more than a passing thought! Maybe CraigBond only started dwelling on her again once he'd finally fallen in love again - that'd inevitably stir some memories, right? - and that was in the films we did get. Alternatively, forget all that - Film Vesper was Eva Green, so of course he pined after her every day for the rest of his life! ;)
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