Is there going to be a Cat in Spectre?

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Comments

  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,006
    The reason to bring back the white cat is to reclaim it for the franchise. It was time.
  • Posts: 2,895
    Ludovico wrote: »
    How clear is it that Blofeld and Irma Bunt have sex and are not platonic? Not to appeal to authority but Umberto Eco agrees with me on the nature of their relationship.

    Eco also thought one of the Spangs was a hunchback. As for Irma, perhaps he had OHMSS in mind, since the characters are not an "item" in that book. But in YOLT she has clearly progressed from henchwoman to consort. Any reading of the book should make that clear.
    Every aspect of Bond has been parodied by Austin Powers. Heck the cat was parodied in DAF! No Fleming didn't need such trope, but using visual short cuts has been a constant in the movies. And I'm fine with too obvious association. Dr No is an evil Chinese man and I don't mind either.

    Austin Powers primarily parodied the most egregious and easy to mock aspects of YOLT and TB. It stands to reason to avoid merely repeating those tropes. When overused, a "visual short cut" is the same thing as a cliche (which in novels is a verbal short cut)--too much repetition makes it stale.

    Dr. No is a Fu-Manchu knockoff that is saved from cliche because Fleming took care to revamp and modernize the stereotype--he gave him a fascinating and wildy original backstory that branched out from China to America, added physical incredibly grotesque deformities, gave him a thoroughly modern scheme and hideout, and zeroed in on sadism as the character's defining trait.

    Contrast this to Spectre's Blofeld, who is only modernized in his scheme. Everything else points to a tragic lack of imagination. His appearance consists of the most mockable and tired 60s tropes (Nehru jacket, cat, eye scar) while his backstory (Bond's resentful pseudo-stepbrother) is wholly unconvincing and frankly stupid (it's a desperate attempt to incorporate a modern cliche, the villain whose backstory is personally tied to the hero's). We know from the leaked scripts that the filmmakers had trouble deciding on what to do with Blofeld, and the film shows they failed to truly modernize the character. The cat stands for that failure. Put it to sleep!
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,006
    Can I say the cat's out of the bag.
  • Posts: 2,895
    It's never been in!
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Cat-astrophic if Blofeld didn't have his love of pussies explored in future films.
  • Posts: 14,823
    @Revelator I'd need to reread YOLT but unless you gave me the passage where it's explicitly stated that they are both sexually active I will remain skeptical about this claim.

    As for Blofeld's backstory in SP I don't like it either but it has nothing to do with the cat. Which I was against the return. I'm merely saying I'm happy with the way he was used in the end.
  • edited July 2018 Posts: 2,895
    Well, Fleming didn't give us any sex scenes between Blofeld and Irma in YOLT, but let's consider that she poses as Shatterhand's wife, and that when we finally meet the couple, their conversation is exactly that of an old married couple and considerably more affectionate than anything in OHMSS, where Irma was only a servant. So in private there is no posing between them. Bond overhears Blofeld call her "liebe Irma" and she repeatedly calls him "lieber Ernst". He asks her questions like "What do you think, my dear?" and calls her "My dear girl" and "mein Liebchen" as well. The Blofeld and Irma of the previous two books never talked like this. If Fleming had merely meant to consider platonic affection between him and Irma, this was hardly the most effective way to do it. The characters pose as man and wife and act exactly like it. And considering that YOLT is a book about the grotesque, Bond and Irma being a true couple fits right in. Why would Fleming wish for us to assume they were a platonic couple?

    Blofeld's backstory is as unoriginal as the return of the cat is. Both are part of an unoriginal, failed way of reinventing the character. And the return of the cat at the end is just terrible fanservice to folks who remember the old campy Blofeld. It does nothing for Waltz's Blofeld, who was already campy enough.
  • edited July 2018 Posts: 14,823
    You are confusing platonic with loveless. You can give any sweet name you want none of them is indicator of an erotic life.

    And the author's intention has little to no relevance here as what matters is the text which once written escapes his control.
  • Tokoloshe2Tokoloshe2 Northern Ireland
    Posts: 1,172
    I just can't read the title of this thread without picturing Sean Connery saying:

    "Well I'm no Cat Inspector, but I'll take a look at her pussy any time..."

    I'll see myself out... ;)
  • Posts: 2,895
    Ludovico wrote: »
    You are confusing platonic with loveless. You can give any sweet name you want none of them is indicator of an erotic life.

    Really? So why do Blofeld and Irma talk to each other like man and wife? Don't you think their speech is a little too lovey-dovey to convey merely platonic affection? And why should Fleming bother with such an idea?
    You're clinging to your idea of Blofeld's supposed impotence despite its complete lack of evidence. Whereas I have pointed out that Blofeld has tertiary syphilis in OHMSS and treats Irma like a wife in YOLT. What is the most plausible interpretation to draw? Certainly not yours.
    And the author's intention has little to no relevance here as what matters is the text which once written escapes his control.

    Not quite. While an author's intentions should not determine our own critical response, it is always worth asking why an author made the decisions he did and what he hoped to convey with them. A book only exists because of the author's intentions.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    If all that matters is the text, where does this notion that Blofeld is impotent stem from?
  • Posts: 14,823
    Really. They talk like man and wife because they're a couple. But their relationship and what they call love is completely dominated and fueled by the Garden of Death. It's far more Thanatos than Eros. Blofeld may be impotent or asexual or the ultimate sadist but given what we know of him in the previous books and their attitude in YOLT nothing indicates an active sex life, not one that is any conventional at the very least. And Fleming uses these sweet words to show a she monster in love with a monster because he's a monster.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    The fact that Blofeld spends so much time in his garden to get away from "er, in doors" proves they have a long term relationship. :D
  • Posts: 2,895
    Ludovico wrote: »
    But their relationship and what they call love is completely dominated and fueled by the Garden of Death.

    Even if this was true, what of it? Plenty of husband and wife couples derive togetherness from working toward the same goal. Irma's ascension from henchwoman to "liebchen" is the result of becoming Blofeld's helpmeet.
    given what we know of him in the previous books and their attitude in YOLT nothing indicates an active sex life, not one that is any conventional at the very least. And Fleming uses these sweet words to show a she monster in love with a monster because he's a monster.

    Isn't that resorting to the author's intentions? And if Fleming is showing the characters are monsters, surely the implication that the monsters are sexually involved is appropriate. Blofeld and Irma being in a romantic relationship is part of the grotesqueness of the garden of death. There's no reason to assume it's platonic. If Fleming didn't want readers to assume Blofeld and Irma were a real couple, he could have retained Irma's henchwoman status in OHMSS, where there was no evidence of her being in a personal relationship with Blofeld. But in YOLT they start cooing the German word for "beloved" to each other. That sends an obvious message to the reader.
  • Posts: 14,823
    OK will try to make it brief because I'm tired and it's off topic. I have no idea of what the author's intention. I'm not Fleming. I never met him. We never discussed it. In fact he was dead before I was even born. I do however know a thing or two about literary analysis. I studied literature. I taught literature. Of course we could always find the author's intention if he left notes about the Blofeld and Bunt relationship and it's great fun when you do genetic studies (which is not my specialty). But until then all I have is the text.

    So while there's no notion of falsifiability in literature and the syphilitic nose notwithstanding I'd say that the demeanour, overall behaviour and background of both characters seem to indicate that they are sexually inactive, and that their libido of what stands for it has been channelled into sadistic pulsions. I don't care about other husbands and wives what matters are these two lovebirds (so to speak).

    Now I can be wrong, obviously I've been wrong about the cat already but this is where I stand on the subject and I do think it's based on the text.
  • Posts: 2,895
    We will have to agree to disagree then, since I believe where I stand on the subject is also based on the text.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    The reason to bring back the white cat is to reclaim it for the franchise. It was time.

    Agreed. I was thrilled to see the white cat's return where he properly belongs, i.e. the 007 series not the Austin Powers series.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,006
    Meow that's what I'm talkin' 'bout!

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  • Posts: 2,895
    That's symptomatic of why Spectre didn't work--it prioritized reclaiming moldy tropes from Austin Powers more than rebooting Blofeld as effectively as Craig rebooted Bond.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,006
    Meow that's just one side of the opinion on it, meow.
  • QBranch wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    Not a bad idea for the next Bond film: a vain, kleptocratic, murderous Russian supervillain who collects big cats to flatter his ego.
    I am reminded of one Mexican drug lord who got busted years back. I think we talked about it here. Among the seized cache were gold plated AK's, handguns encrusted in solid gold, stolen art, as well as flipping lions!

    !!!

    Back flips or front flips?
  • Posts: 2,895
    Meow that's just one side of the opinion on it, meow.

    Yes, but the other side is for the birds.
  • edited July 2018 Posts: 1,296
    I don't mind the cat as a piece of dessert like a cherry on top for a job well done in fleshing out Blofeld and modernizing him for the new century as @Revelator says, btu, they did not do the neccessary legwork to get there, and so the cat is standing in for substance where there is none and that is where it really hurts. Bare ankles be damned.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    edited July 2018 Posts: 13,926
    QBranch wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    Not a bad idea for the next Bond film: a vain, kleptocratic, murderous Russian supervillain who collects big cats to flatter his ego.
    I am reminded of one Mexican drug lord who got busted years back. I think we talked about it here. Among the seized cache were gold plated AK's, handguns encrusted in solid gold, stolen art, as well as flipping lions!

    !!!

    Back flips or front flips?
    Both! And they do it quite easily, I might add. But only off a diving board.
  • Posts: 14,823
    Revelator wrote: »
    We will have to agree to disagree then, since I believe where I stand on the subject is also based on the text.

    Such is the nature of literary criticism.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,006
    Revelator wrote: »
    Meow that's just one side of the opinion on it, meow.
    Yes, but the other side is for the birds.
    Meow that rings true.

    birds-on-a-wire-allen-klein.jpgimages?q=tbn:ANd9GcQqLGbgzti_X93liTitviOOqbOXgPVwM1yo8wXKvF-V3853aAZTRw

  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,688
    Strictly for the birds, huh?
    They still say that?
    We used to say it all the time.
    It's strictly for the 'boids.'

    - Hermann Gromek (Wolfgang Kieling), TORN CURTAIN by Alfred Hitchcock
  • Posts: 1,296
    Absolutely. Wait do those birds spell something? I am scared, I can't look anymore.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    NTTD-the first time Blofeld is without his cat.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Kicking: Impossible
    edited October 2021 Posts: 6,721
    It was in another prison.
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