Music in SPECTRE

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    You know I've been pretty open about Bond composers. I've actually liked them all (including all the one-offs) to a degree, including Thomas Newman - I enjoyed a lot of what he did in specific parts of SF. I liked the Shanghai stuff, the Istanbul stuff, & New Digs personally. as well as The Chimera and Severine's theme.

    The only composer who I've been continually disappointed with out of all them (including Serra) and who I don't personally rate highly, is David Arnold. This is because his orchestral work for the most part (there are exceptions) was 3rd rate compared to Barry and yet seemed very derivative of the genius, like a hack . Also I don't like what he brought of his own - namely the techno stuff and the busy, frenzied and chaotic (to my ears anyway) action scoring.

    I agree with others here that Danny Elfman, Michael Giacchino & Atticus Ross/Trent Reznor would all probably be amazing, as would Hans Zimmer (yes I even like him) or even Howard Shore (his work for the original LOTR is absolutely first class).

    As I've said though, I think we're going to get a very good score from Newman this time.
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,425
    Matt007 wrote: »
    What I love about Newmans SF score is how it's not necessarily built on leitmotifs. It's not got "the imperial March" or "colonel bogey" as a recurrent theme.

    It's more subtle than that. And I find it tremendously listenable. It compliments the film with a growing sense of foreboding rather than aurally signposting how we should feel.

    Melodically it's unusual. The chords and melodies in some sequences are bit predictable, but I like that.

    Barry was Barry. Arnold wanted to be. Serra, conti and Hamlisch are all time capsules of varying degrees of horribleness.

    I find newmans score different but engaging.

    Looking forward to SP

    I find the view that a Bond score which lacks 'aural signposts' is a good thing, quite amusing.
  • Posts: 1,314
    Really. Well if you like them there are 22 others which do it. I just thought it was a different approach that worked well.
  • Posts: 1,314
    Edited my original post. Should have read "unpredictable"
  • Posts: 11,119
    The only remark I got in here when I said I really liked the Skyfall-score, was something like this:
    I don't understand you! You're the only one in here!

    Well, I've got news then. I don't give a damn :-p.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Michael Kamen's work in LTK was great and suited the mood of the film. Anything Serra style should be avoided in Spectre his score was awful and the worst in the series so far!
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,145
    I don't think Serra's score was that bad. "Ladies First" is the only track that I really don't like. But there is some good in it.

    The GoldenEye Overture


    The Severnaya Suite


    Whispering statues.


    That's what keeps you alone.


    Run, Shoot and Jump


    And while Eric Serra didn't compose this last track, It's still a highlight of GoldenEye's score.

    Tank Drive around St. Petersburg.
  • Posts: 11,425
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Michael Kamen's work in LTK was great and suited the mood of the film. Anything Serra style should be avoided in Spectre his score was awful and the worst in the series so far!

    Agree on both counts.
  • Posts: 2,870
    bondjames wrote: »
    You know I've been pretty open about Bond composers. I've actually liked them all (including all the one-offs) to a degree, including Thomas Newman - I enjoyed a lot of what he did in specific parts of SF. I liked the Shanghai stuff, the Istanbul stuff, & New Digs personally. as well as The Chimera and Severine's theme.

    The only composer who I've been continually disappointed with out of all them (including Serra) and who I don't personally rate highly, is David Arnold. This is because his orchestral work for the most part (there are exceptions) was 3rd rate compared to Barry and yet seemed very derivative of the genius, like a hack . Also I don't like what he brought of his own - namely the techno stuff and the busy, frenzied and chaotic (to my ears anyway) action scoring.
    I agree with this in regards the 3 Brosnan movies Arnold did, as the majority of it is too techno, but in CR and QoS he really delivered. Both soundtracks are superb - modern sound, with a foot still in the Barry camp, and with the odd track which is just as good as Barry, and sounds exactly like Barry - Vesper's theme, Night at the Opera.

    I rate CR and QoS as excellent soundtracks, up there with the best that Barry did.
  • Posts: 11,119
    bondjames wrote: »
    You know I've been pretty open about Bond composers. I've actually liked them all (including all the one-offs) to a degree, including Thomas Newman - I enjoyed a lot of what he did in specific parts of SF. I liked the Shanghai stuff, the Istanbul stuff, & New Digs personally. as well as The Chimera and Severine's theme.

    The only composer who I've been continually disappointed with out of all them (including Serra) and who I don't personally rate highly, is David Arnold. This is because his orchestral work for the most part (there are exceptions) was 3rd rate compared to Barry and yet seemed very derivative of the genius, like a hack . Also I don't like what he brought of his own - namely the techno stuff and the busy, frenzied and chaotic (to my ears anyway) action scoring.
    I agree with this in regards the 3 Brosnan movies Arnold did, as the majority of it is too techno, but in CR and QoS he really delivered. Both soundtracks are superb - modern sound, with a foot still in the Barry camp, and with the odd track which is just as good as Barry, and sounds exactly like Barry - Vesper's theme, Night at the Opera.

    I rate CR and QoS as excellent soundtracks, up there with the best that Barry did.

    Sorry, I can't agree. Yes, Arnold's earlier Bond scores incorporated a lot of electro/techno music. But he'll, those scores were also way more memorable, because of the use of better compositions and melodies. Melodies that stick better to your mind.

    Therefore I still rate TND and TWINE Arnold's finest Bond scoring. Tracks like "Backseat Driver" and "007 Your Time Is Up" really used these wunderful secondary melodies. Not to mention some utterly romantic cues like "Snow Business". It also helped that both Bond films had secondary theme song: "Surrender" for TND and "Only Myself To Blame" for TWINE. They really helped giving the score more musical depth and soul.

    With CR and QOS I can't help but feeling Arnold forced himself too much to strip down the scores into something "rougher, more purer, less melódical". Result was that it sounded too forced. Also, when you decide not to use the James Bond theme, then for goodness sake compose a new action theme music, like "Surrender"! He didn't.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    bondjames wrote: »
    You know I've been pretty open about Bond composers. I've actually liked them all (including all the one-offs) to a degree, including Thomas Newman - I enjoyed a lot of what he did in specific parts of SF. I liked the Shanghai stuff, the Istanbul stuff, & New Digs personally. as well as The Chimera and Severine's theme.

    The only composer who I've been continually disappointed with out of all them (including Serra) and who I don't personally rate highly, is David Arnold. This is because his orchestral work for the most part (there are exceptions) was 3rd rate compared to Barry and yet seemed very derivative of the genius, like a hack . Also I don't like what he brought of his own - namely the techno stuff and the busy, frenzied and chaotic (to my ears anyway) action scoring.
    I agree with this in regards the 3 Brosnan movies Arnold did, as the majority of it is too techno, but in CR and QoS he really delivered. Both soundtracks are superb - modern sound, with a foot still in the Barry camp, and with the odd track which is just as good as Barry, and sounds exactly like Barry - Vesper's theme, Night at the Opera.

    I rate CR and QoS as excellent soundtracks, up there with the best that Barry did.

    Sorry, I can't agree. Yes, Arnold's earlier Bond scores incorporated a lot of electro/techno music. But he'll, those scores were also way more memorable, because of the use of better compositions and melodies. Melodies that stick better to your mind.

    Therefore I still rate TND and TWINE Arnold's finest Bond scoring. Tracks like "Backseat Driver" and "007 Your Time Is Up" really used these wunderful secondary melodies. Not to mention some utterly romantic cues like "Snow Business". It also helped that both Bond films had secondary theme song: "Surrender" for TND and "Only Myself To Blame" for TWINE. They really helped giving the score more musical depth and soul.

    With CR and QOS I can't help but feeling Arnold forced himself too much to strip down the scores into something "rougher, more purer, less melódical". Result was that it sounded too forced. Also, when you decide not to use the James Bond theme, then for goodness sake compose a new action theme music, like "Surrender"! He didn't.

    He composed YKMN.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Yes, Arnold's earlier Bond scores incorporated a lot of electro/techno music. But he'll, those scores were also way more memorable, because of the use of better compositions and melodies. Melodies that stick better to your mind.

    Therefore I still rate TND and TWINE Arnold's finest Bond scoring. Tracks like "Backseat Driver" and "007 Your Time Is Up" really used these wunderful secondary melodies. Not to mention some utterly romantic cues like "Snow Business". It also helped that both Bond films had secondary theme song: "Surrender" for TND and "Only Myself To Blame" for TWINE. They really helped giving the score more musical depth and soul.

    Totally agree. I'd go for TND as my favourite, I think it's a belter.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    I like the 60's vibe at some points of TND. I think Arnold best score is CR (although the lack of the full Bond theme is sometimes annoying). Afican Rundown is brilliant and really ass to a truely excellent sequence.....goose pimple time!
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Adds not ass ha ha!
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,119
    RC7 wrote: »
    Yes, Arnold's earlier Bond scores incorporated a lot of electro/techno music. But he'll, those scores were also way more memorable, because of the use of better compositions and melodies. Melodies that stick better to your mind.

    Therefore I still rate TND and TWINE Arnold's finest Bond scoring. Tracks like "Backseat Driver" and "007 Your Time Is Up" really used these wunderful secondary melodies. Not to mention some utterly romantic cues like "Snow Business". It also helped that both Bond films had secondary theme song: "Surrender" for TND and "Only Myself To Blame" for TWINE. They really helped giving the score more musical depth and soul.

    Totally agree. I'd go for TND as my favourite, I think it's a belter.

    Like this one? This is actually the slightly different, final movie-edit, which I like most:


    What I love about this action track, is that it incorporates the very strong melodies of both Arnold's composition "Surrender" and Monty Norman's "James Bond Theme" with such skillfully perfection. It's a perfect example of how actually John Barry would have composed it, if he was still onboard for TND. Also, the electronical percussions/pieces (Propellorheads/Arnold) which set the rhytmn, the scratching (add a bit of 90-ies vibe), the blaring horns/trumpets, the Barry-esque string sections and the funny bit of piano-intermezzo seamlessly work: they are all combined in one hell of a perfect total package.

    With a composition/tune like "YKMN" you could not have created such an action track. Not all James Bond songs lend themselves very well for an action track.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    RC7 wrote: »
    Yes, Arnold's earlier Bond scores incorporated a lot of electro/techno music. But he'll, those scores were also way more memorable, because of the use of better compositions and melodies. Melodies that stick better to your mind.

    Therefore I still rate TND and TWINE Arnold's finest Bond scoring. Tracks like "Backseat Driver" and "007 Your Time Is Up" really used these wunderful secondary melodies. Not to mention some utterly romantic cues like "Snow Business". It also helped that both Bond films had secondary theme song: "Surrender" for TND and "Only Myself To Blame" for TWINE. They really helped giving the score more musical depth and soul.

    Totally agree. I'd go for TND as my favourite, I think it's a belter.

    Like this one? This is actually the slightly different, final movie-edit, which I like most:


    What I love about this action track, is that it incorporates the very strong melodies of both Arnold's composition "Surrender" and Monty Norman's "James Bond Theme" with such skillfully perfection. It's a perfect example of how actually John Barry would have composed it, if he was still onboard for TND. Also, the electronical percussions/pieces (Propellorheads/Arnold) which set the rhytmn, the blaring horns/trumpets, the Barry-esque string sections and the funny bit of piano-intermezzo seamlessly work.

    With a composition/tune like "YKMN" you could not have created such an action track. Not all James Bond songs lend themselves very well for an action track.

    I'm very sorry to hear you say this. I don't hear anything Barry'esque whatsoever in the above. Just nighclub techno noise with the Bond theme incorporated. This is precisely what I don't like about Arnold's work. To each their own, and I understand this is subjective, but I am not a fan of it at all, and I don't hear Barry above whatsoever.

    There were much better compositions in TND imho, although I still prefer his CR & QoS (especially the latter)..

    YKMN was a high water mark for Arnold and Bond from my point of view.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited March 2015 Posts: 15,534
    Barry himself may have suggested Arnold to the producers, but I remember an interview he made a while before CR saying that the modern Bond soundtracks were 'treading water' or 'on their last leg' (I don't remember the exact wording.)
  • Posts: 11,119
    bondjames wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    Yes, Arnold's earlier Bond scores incorporated a lot of electro/techno music. But he'll, those scores were also way more memorable, because of the use of better compositions and melodies. Melodies that stick better to your mind.

    Therefore I still rate TND and TWINE Arnold's finest Bond scoring. Tracks like "Backseat Driver" and "007 Your Time Is Up" really used these wunderful secondary melodies. Not to mention some utterly romantic cues like "Snow Business". It also helped that both Bond films had secondary theme song: "Surrender" for TND and "Only Myself To Blame" for TWINE. They really helped giving the score more musical depth and soul.

    Totally agree. I'd go for TND as my favourite, I think it's a belter.

    Like this one? This is actually the slightly different, final movie-edit, which I like most:


    What I love about this action track, is that it incorporates the very strong melodies of both Arnold's composition "Surrender" and Monty Norman's "James Bond Theme" with such skillfully perfection. It's a perfect example of how actually John Barry would have composed it, if he was still onboard for TND. Also, the electronical percussions/pieces (Propellorheads/Arnold) which set the rhytmn, the blaring horns/trumpets, the Barry-esque string sections and the funny bit of piano-intermezzo seamlessly work.

    With a composition/tune like "YKMN" you could not have created such an action track. Not all James Bond songs lend themselves very well for an action track.

    I'm very sorry to hear you say this. I don't hear anything Barry'esque whatsoever in the above. Just nighclub techno noise with the Bond theme incorporated. This is precisely what I don't like about Arnold's work. To each their own, and I understand this is subjective, but I am not a fan of it at all, and I don't hear Barry above whatsoever.

    There were much better compositions in TND imho, although I still prefer his CR & QoS (especially the latter)..

    YKMN was a high water mark for Arnold and Bond from my point of view.

    Then we disagree. I think a track like "Backseat Driver" is more Barry-esque, even more comparable to Barry's own "Ice Chase" and "Inflight Fight" from "TLD". John Barry really experimented with tech sounds as well on that score, basically re-inventing the James Bond Theme in a skillful way, using it as a rhytmic piece, similar to what David Arnold did with "Backseat Driver". Also, he used the melodies of "Where Has Everybody Gone" and "The Living Daylights" seamlessly, just like Arnold did with "Surrender".



    Yes, I agree these tracks show off their age (80's vs. 90's), but I don't mind it.

    For me, Arnold's later scores on "CR" and "QOS" are simply too rough-edged. Especially the action cues lack any kind of memorable piece of melody. I can humm accords from OHMSS's "Ski Chase", TLD's "Inflight Fight" and TND's "Backseat Driver". I can't do it with QOS's "Time To Get Out".
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    @Gustav_Graves, I am not musically trained. I just know that those two Barry tracks you put up just now are absolutely magnificent. The TLD soundtrack is in my car and I listen to it every day. It has not dated to me. It's a work of art.

    That Arnold thing you posted earlier from TND is a joke imho compared to the last two from Barry's Bond swansong.

    As I said, I'm not musically trained, but one sounds like loud frenzied, chaotic, uncoordinated nightclub noise (I almost expect to see some snot nosed kid playing with a scratchy turntable) and the other two sound like the work of a compositional genius with refinement and finesse - just to my ears. There's a difference between subtle use & incorporation of synthesizers which I am not averse to (Barry, even in OHMSS when it was new) and overuse of techno scratch which every other composer knows should not be anywhere near a Bond film (Arnold) imho.

    I liked QoS and CR and think they are big improvements but for the most part, Arnold just sucked for me (and I am not so forceful in my criticisms normally so you can imagine how bad he was for me during most of his tenure for me to get this worked up about it - especially when he is compared to Barry).

    I personally even think the Goldeneye overture above from the much maligned GE score just blows that Arnold composition away.
  • sunsanvilsunsanvil Somewhere in Canada....somewhere.
    edited March 2015 Posts: 260
    John Barry really experimented with tech sounds as well on that score, basically re-inventing the James Bond Theme in a skillful way, using it as a rhytmic piece (...). Also, he used the melodies of "Where Has Everybody Gone" and "The Living Daylights" seamlessly (...).

    For me, Arnold's later scores on "CR" and "QOS" are simply too rough-edged. Especially the action cues lack any kind of memorable piece of melody. I can humm accords from OHMSS's "Ski Chase", TLD's "Inflight Fight" (...). I can't do it with QOS's "Time To Get Out".

    Totally agree with you: For all its faults, The Living Daylights is one of my more favored Bonds mainly because of the score. As you say, its akin to On Her Majesty's Secret Service in terms of the overarching musical themes, and a total "hummability" to the whole thing.

    David Arnold's work, for me at least, not so much.

  • edited March 2015 Posts: 2,870
    bondjames wrote: »
    You know I've been pretty open about Bond composers. I've actually liked them all (including all the one-offs) to a degree, including Thomas Newman - I enjoyed a lot of what he did in specific parts of SF. I liked the Shanghai stuff, the Istanbul stuff, & New Digs personally. as well as The Chimera and Severine's theme.

    The only composer who I've been continually disappointed with out of all them (including Serra) and who I don't personally rate highly, is David Arnold. This is because his orchestral work for the most part (there are exceptions) was 3rd rate compared to Barry and yet seemed very derivative of the genius, like a hack . Also I don't like what he brought of his own - namely the techno stuff and the busy, frenzied and chaotic (to my ears anyway) action scoring.
    I agree with this in regards the 3 Brosnan movies Arnold did, as the majority of it is too techno, but in CR and QoS he really delivered. Both soundtracks are superb - modern sound, with a foot still in the Barry camp, and with the odd track which is just as good as Barry, and sounds exactly like Barry - Vesper's theme, Night at the Opera.

    I rate CR and QoS as excellent soundtracks, up there with the best that Barry did.

    Sorry, I can't agree. Yes, Arnold's earlier Bond scores incorporated a lot of electro/techno music. But he'll, those scores were also way more memorable, because of the use of better compositions and melodies. Melodies that stick better to your mind.

    Therefore I still rate TND and TWINE Arnold's finest Bond scoring. Tracks like "Backseat Driver" and "007 Your Time Is Up" really used these wunderful secondary melodies. Not to mention some utterly romantic cues like "Snow Business". It also helped that both Bond films had secondary theme song: "Surrender" for TND and "Only Myself To Blame" for TWINE. They really helped giving the score more musical depth and soul.

    With CR and QOS I can't help but feeling Arnold forced himself too much to strip down the scores into something "rougher, more purer, less melódical". Result was that it sounded too forced. Also, when you decide not to use the James Bond theme, then for goodness sake compose a new action theme music, like "Surrender"! He didn't.
    Don't get me wrong, I don't mind any of Arnold's scores, and I really like Surrender, and Backseat Driver, but how you can mention the tiny ditty that is Snow Business as a romantic piece, giving the film depth and soul, and then not mention Vesper's theme from CR in equal measure is a complete joke, and where you start to lose credibility.

    I just felt with CR he really starting nailing a pure Barry sound. Vesper's theme in Venice just sounds like Somewhere in Time and Hanover Street, and moments in CR really had some of the best sounds we've heard in years - Bond driving his Ford Mondeo in Nassau, Bond trying on his tux for the first time, meeting Mr. White at the end, etc.

    In QoS Arnold really did evoke early 1970's John Barry, particularly Night at the Opera.

    As for scoring the films with songs, he did YKMN, and also No Good About Goodbyes with Shirley Bassey for QoS (which criminally didn't get used, and we had to suffer the worst Bond song of all time instead).....


  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    You know I've been pretty open about Bond composers. I've actually liked them all (including all the one-offs) to a degree, including Thomas Newman - I enjoyed a lot of what he did in specific parts of SF. I liked the Shanghai stuff, the Istanbul stuff, & New Digs personally. as well as The Chimera and Severine's theme.

    The only composer who I've been continually disappointed with out of all them (including Serra) and who I don't personally rate highly, is David Arnold. This is because his orchestral work for the most part (there are exceptions) was 3rd rate compared to Barry and yet seemed very derivative of the genius, like a hack . Also I don't like what he brought of his own - namely the techno stuff and the busy, frenzied and chaotic (to my ears anyway) action scoring.
    I agree with this in regards the 3 Brosnan movies Arnold did, as the majority of it is too techno, but in CR and QoS he really delivered. Both soundtracks are superb - modern sound, with a foot still in the Barry camp, and with the odd track which is just as good as Barry, and sounds exactly like Barry - Vesper's theme, Night at the Opera.

    I rate CR and QoS as excellent soundtracks, up there with the best that Barry did.

    Sorry, I can't agree. Yes, Arnold's earlier Bond scores incorporated a lot of electro/techno music. But he'll, those scores were also way more memorable, because of the use of better compositions and melodies. Melodies that stick better to your mind.

    Therefore I still rate TND and TWINE Arnold's finest Bond scoring. Tracks like "Backseat Driver" and "007 Your Time Is Up" really used these wunderful secondary melodies. Not to mention some utterly romantic cues like "Snow Business". It also helped that both Bond films had secondary theme song: "Surrender" for TND and "Only Myself To Blame" for TWINE. They really helped giving the score more musical depth and soul.

    With CR and QOS I can't help but feeling Arnold forced himself too much to strip down the scores into something "rougher, more purer, less melódical". Result was that it sounded too forced. Also, when you decide not to use the James Bond theme, then for goodness sake compose a new action theme music, like "Surrender"! He didn't.
    Don't get me wrong, I don't mind any of Arnold's scores, and I really like Surrender, and Backseat Driver.

    I just felt with CR he really starting nailing a pure Barry sound. Vesper's theme in Venice just sounds like Somewhere in Time and Hanover Street, and moments in CR really had some of the best sounds we've heard in years - Bond driving his Ford Mondeo in Nassau, Bond trying on his tux for the first time, etc.

    In QoS Arnold really did evoke early 1970's John Barry, particularly Night at the Opera.

    As for scoring the films with songs, he did YKMN, and also No Good About Goodbyes with Shirley Bassey for QoS (which criminally didn't get used, and instead we had to suffer the worst Bond song of all time instead).....


    Much as I really don't like Arnold, I agree with you on your last post @jetsetwilly. CR & QoS were his best, and African Rundown & Night at the Opera were excellent. YKMN is outstanding - damn shame it's not on the soundtrack cd.
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 2,870
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    You know I've been pretty open about Bond composers. I've actually liked them all (including all the one-offs) to a degree, including Thomas Newman - I enjoyed a lot of what he did in specific parts of SF. I liked the Shanghai stuff, the Istanbul stuff, & New Digs personally. as well as The Chimera and Severine's theme.

    The only composer who I've been continually disappointed with out of all them (including Serra) and who I don't personally rate highly, is David Arnold. This is because his orchestral work for the most part (there are exceptions) was 3rd rate compared to Barry and yet seemed very derivative of the genius, like a hack . Also I don't like what he brought of his own - namely the techno stuff and the busy, frenzied and chaotic (to my ears anyway) action scoring.
    I agree with this in regards the 3 Brosnan movies Arnold did, as the majority of it is too techno, but in CR and QoS he really delivered. Both soundtracks are superb - modern sound, with a foot still in the Barry camp, and with the odd track which is just as good as Barry, and sounds exactly like Barry - Vesper's theme, Night at the Opera.

    I rate CR and QoS as excellent soundtracks, up there with the best that Barry did.

    Sorry, I can't agree. Yes, Arnold's earlier Bond scores incorporated a lot of electro/techno music. But he'll, those scores were also way more memorable, because of the use of better compositions and melodies. Melodies that stick better to your mind.

    Therefore I still rate TND and TWINE Arnold's finest Bond scoring. Tracks like "Backseat Driver" and "007 Your Time Is Up" really used these wunderful secondary melodies. Not to mention some utterly romantic cues like "Snow Business". It also helped that both Bond films had secondary theme song: "Surrender" for TND and "Only Myself To Blame" for TWINE. They really helped giving the score more musical depth and soul.

    With CR and QOS I can't help but feeling Arnold forced himself too much to strip down the scores into something "rougher, more purer, less melódical". Result was that it sounded too forced. Also, when you decide not to use the James Bond theme, then for goodness sake compose a new action theme music, like "Surrender"! He didn't.
    Don't get me wrong, I don't mind any of Arnold's scores, and I really like Surrender, and Backseat Driver.

    I just felt with CR he really starting nailing a pure Barry sound. Vesper's theme in Venice just sounds like Somewhere in Time and Hanover Street, and moments in CR really had some of the best sounds we've heard in years - Bond driving his Ford Mondeo in Nassau, Bond trying on his tux for the first time, etc.

    In QoS Arnold really did evoke early 1970's John Barry, particularly Night at the Opera.

    As for scoring the films with songs, he did YKMN, and also No Good About Goodbyes with Shirley Bassey for QoS (which criminally didn't get used, and instead we had to suffer the worst Bond song of all time instead).....


    Much as I really don't like Arnold, I agree with you on your last post @jetsetwilly. CR & QoS were his best, and African Rundown & Night at the Opera were excellent. YKMN is outstanding - damn shame it's not on the soundtrack cd.

    Cheers.... :!!
    I'm not sure what planet Gustav Graves is on by not liking CR and QoS, yet liking all the Brozza tracks, but there you go. Each to their own. Maybe he is a Brozza fan and doesn't like Craig..... ;))
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    You know I've been pretty open about Bond composers. I've actually liked them all (including all the one-offs) to a degree, including Thomas Newman - I enjoyed a lot of what he did in specific parts of SF. I liked the Shanghai stuff, the Istanbul stuff, & New Digs personally. as well as The Chimera and Severine's theme.

    The only composer who I've been continually disappointed with out of all them (including Serra) and who I don't personally rate highly, is David Arnold. This is because his orchestral work for the most part (there are exceptions) was 3rd rate compared to Barry and yet seemed very derivative of the genius, like a hack . Also I don't like what he brought of his own - namely the techno stuff and the busy, frenzied and chaotic (to my ears anyway) action scoring.
    I agree with this in regards the 3 Brosnan movies Arnold did, as the majority of it is too techno, but in CR and QoS he really delivered. Both soundtracks are superb - modern sound, with a foot still in the Barry camp, and with the odd track which is just as good as Barry, and sounds exactly like Barry - Vesper's theme, Night at the Opera.

    I rate CR and QoS as excellent soundtracks, up there with the best that Barry did.

    Sorry, I can't agree. Yes, Arnold's earlier Bond scores incorporated a lot of electro/techno music. But he'll, those scores were also way more memorable, because of the use of better compositions and melodies. Melodies that stick better to your mind.

    Therefore I still rate TND and TWINE Arnold's finest Bond scoring. Tracks like "Backseat Driver" and "007 Your Time Is Up" really used these wunderful secondary melodies. Not to mention some utterly romantic cues like "Snow Business". It also helped that both Bond films had secondary theme song: "Surrender" for TND and "Only Myself To Blame" for TWINE. They really helped giving the score more musical depth and soul.

    With CR and QOS I can't help but feeling Arnold forced himself too much to strip down the scores into something "rougher, more purer, less melódical". Result was that it sounded too forced. Also, when you decide not to use the James Bond theme, then for goodness sake compose a new action theme music, like "Surrender"! He didn't.
    Don't get me wrong, I don't mind any of Arnold's scores, and I really like Surrender, and Backseat Driver.

    I just felt with CR he really starting nailing a pure Barry sound. Vesper's theme in Venice just sounds like Somewhere in Time and Hanover Street, and moments in CR really had some of the best sounds we've heard in years - Bond driving his Ford Mondeo in Nassau, Bond trying on his tux for the first time, etc.

    In QoS Arnold really did evoke early 1970's John Barry, particularly Night at the Opera.

    As for scoring the films with songs, he did YKMN, and also No Good About Goodbyes with Shirley Bassey for QoS (which criminally didn't get used, and instead we had to suffer the worst Bond song of all time instead).....


    Much as I really don't like Arnold, I agree with you on your last post @jetsetwilly. CR & QoS were his best, and African Rundown & Night at the Opera were excellent. YKMN is outstanding - damn shame it's not on the soundtrack cd.

    Cheers.... :!!
    I'm not sure what planet Gustav Graves is on by not liking CR and QoS, yet liking all the Brozza tracks, but there you go. Each to their own. Maybe he is a Brozza fan and doesn't like Craig..... ;))

    For what I know, Gustav Graves prefers Craig to Brosnan. I guess the music for a certain Bond doesn't affect our preference for his performance, considering I prefer Brosnan to Craig but I think Arnold's scores for CR and QoS are better than those he did for TND, TWINE and DAD.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Walecs wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    You know I've been pretty open about Bond composers. I've actually liked them all (including all the one-offs) to a degree, including Thomas Newman - I enjoyed a lot of what he did in specific parts of SF. I liked the Shanghai stuff, the Istanbul stuff, & New Digs personally. as well as The Chimera and Severine's theme.

    The only composer who I've been continually disappointed with out of all them (including Serra) and who I don't personally rate highly, is David Arnold. This is because his orchestral work for the most part (there are exceptions) was 3rd rate compared to Barry and yet seemed very derivative of the genius, like a hack . Also I don't like what he brought of his own - namely the techno stuff and the busy, frenzied and chaotic (to my ears anyway) action scoring.
    I agree with this in regards the 3 Brosnan movies Arnold did, as the majority of it is too techno, but in CR and QoS he really delivered. Both soundtracks are superb - modern sound, with a foot still in the Barry camp, and with the odd track which is just as good as Barry, and sounds exactly like Barry - Vesper's theme, Night at the Opera.

    I rate CR and QoS as excellent soundtracks, up there with the best that Barry did.

    Sorry, I can't agree. Yes, Arnold's earlier Bond scores incorporated a lot of electro/techno music. But he'll, those scores were also way more memorable, because of the use of better compositions and melodies. Melodies that stick better to your mind.

    Therefore I still rate TND and TWINE Arnold's finest Bond scoring. Tracks like "Backseat Driver" and "007 Your Time Is Up" really used these wunderful secondary melodies. Not to mention some utterly romantic cues like "Snow Business". It also helped that both Bond films had secondary theme song: "Surrender" for TND and "Only Myself To Blame" for TWINE. They really helped giving the score more musical depth and soul.

    With CR and QOS I can't help but feeling Arnold forced himself too much to strip down the scores into something "rougher, more purer, less melódical". Result was that it sounded too forced. Also, when you decide not to use the James Bond theme, then for goodness sake compose a new action theme music, like "Surrender"! He didn't.
    Don't get me wrong, I don't mind any of Arnold's scores, and I really like Surrender, and Backseat Driver.

    I just felt with CR he really starting nailing a pure Barry sound. Vesper's theme in Venice just sounds like Somewhere in Time and Hanover Street, and moments in CR really had some of the best sounds we've heard in years - Bond driving his Ford Mondeo in Nassau, Bond trying on his tux for the first time, etc.

    In QoS Arnold really did evoke early 1970's John Barry, particularly Night at the Opera.

    As for scoring the films with songs, he did YKMN, and also No Good About Goodbyes with Shirley Bassey for QoS (which criminally didn't get used, and instead we had to suffer the worst Bond song of all time instead).....


    Much as I really don't like Arnold, I agree with you on your last post @jetsetwilly. CR & QoS were his best, and African Rundown & Night at the Opera were excellent. YKMN is outstanding - damn shame it's not on the soundtrack cd.

    Cheers.... :!!
    I'm not sure what planet Gustav Graves is on by not liking CR and QoS, yet liking all the Brozza tracks, but there you go. Each to their own. Maybe he is a Brozza fan and doesn't like Craig..... ;))

    For what I know, Gustav Graves prefers Craig to Brosnan. I guess the music for a certain Bond doesn't affect our preference for his performance, considering I prefer Brosnan to Craig but I think Arnold's scores for CR and QoS are better than those he did for TND, TWINE and DAD.

    Exactly. I'm a big big fan of the Craig films, but after QOS I couldn't help thinking "When will they replace Arnold?". There were even topics about that, quite popular ones, on this forum around that time :-).

    In all honesty, with Arnold everything started off so great, it was still good in TWINE. But on the whole Arnold's career for me on Bond feels like a downward spirale.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    It's amazing how we can all see things so differently on here.

    TWINE is the bottom of the pile for me in every way, including the soundtrack which I personally can't stand, along with DAD's.

    I think Arnold came closest (although still some way away) to Barry with CR (since he incorporated YKMN well into the score) but to me QoS is his most original, best score while still sounding suitably Bondian. However it's a testament to how poorly I see his tenure that I rank his first 3 below all other composers (and on par with Serra).

    QoS and CR to me are on par with all the other one-off composers (Conti, Hamlisch, Kamen, Newman) but below Martin who I thought was absolutely brilliant.

    All Barry's are above all of the others, but to me, Martin came closest to creating something special for Bond outside of the Barry sound.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    It might be opinion but to suggest that Arnold got close to the best of Barry with either CR or QOS is just ludicrous and yes Back Street Driver has no relation to Barry whatsoever, at least not the Barry I've listened to for the last 37 years of my life.

    I might suggest getting your ears syringed.

    Barry's genius with melody and pure memorable sound has no rivals, they are all playing catchup. YKMN & Time To Get Out are probably amongst Arnold's best but approaching the likes of Bond Back In Action or It Never Happened To The Other Fella, not in your wildest dreams.

    It's like suggesting What's The Story Morning Glory compares to Revolver or that any Coldplay or Snow Patrol album gets to height of Achtung Baby or Ok Computer.

    One is an innovator who truly presents their own sound and the other is just standing on their shoulder with no originality, offering pale cover versions in comparison.
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 2,870
    Shardlake wrote: »
    It might be opinion but to suggest that Arnold got close to the best of Barry with either CR or QOS is just ludicrous and yes Back Street Driver has no relation to Barry whatsoever, at least not the Barry I've listened to for the last 37 years of my life.

    I might suggest getting your ears syringed.

    Barry's genius with melody and pure memorable sound has no rivals, they are all playing catchup. YKMN & Time To Get Out are probably amongst Arnold's best but approaching the likes of Bond Back In Action or It Never Happened To The Other Fella, not in your wildest dreams.

    It's like suggesting What's The Story Morning Glory compares to Revolver or that any Coldplay or Snow Patrol album gets to height of Achtung Baby or Ok Computer.

    One is an innovator who truly presents their own sound and the other is just standing on their shoulder with no originality, offering pale cover versions in comparison.

    No one will ever replace Barry, but I would still rather have a Barry copy-cat rip-off sound in a Bond film, rather than something new and different. And I like the fact that Arnold is a huge Barry fan - it does help when you hear sounds that are emulating the Barry sound, from a composer that has obviously studied all of Barry's work in-depth, and worships the ground he walked on.

    Can anyone remember the closing tune at the Olympic Games, which was musically arranged by David Arnold. Yes, it was John Barry's Dances With Wolves. Even then, he has to work Barry in somewhere. I like that about him.

    When my wife watched CR for the first time, and the Venice scenes appeared, accompanied by Arnold's sweeping score, she said `isn't that the same guy doing the music that did Somewhere in Time?

    I defy anyone to tell me the Vesper theme doesn't sound anything remotely like John Barry, because its utter BS. It is definitely a Barry sound, and yes, I've been listening to Barry for the best part of 37 years too, and he is still my favourite composer.

    What's the Story vs Revolver....ohhhh! Tough one! Both great albums, IMO.

    I still prefer Be Here Now.....although I'm in the minority on that one. :>
  • Posts: 2,870
    Walecs wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    You know I've been pretty open about Bond composers. I've actually liked them all (including all the one-offs) to a degree, including Thomas Newman - I enjoyed a lot of what he did in specific parts of SF. I liked the Shanghai stuff, the Istanbul stuff, & New Digs personally. as well as The Chimera and Severine's theme.

    The only composer who I've been continually disappointed with out of all them (including Serra) and who I don't personally rate highly, is David Arnold. This is because his orchestral work for the most part (there are exceptions) was 3rd rate compared to Barry and yet seemed very derivative of the genius, like a hack . Also I don't like what he brought of his own - namely the techno stuff and the busy, frenzied and chaotic (to my ears anyway) action scoring.
    I agree with this in regards the 3 Brosnan movies Arnold did, as the majority of it is too techno, but in CR and QoS he really delivered. Both soundtracks are superb - modern sound, with a foot still in the Barry camp, and with the odd track which is just as good as Barry, and sounds exactly like Barry - Vesper's theme, Night at the Opera.

    I rate CR and QoS as excellent soundtracks, up there with the best that Barry did.

    Sorry, I can't agree. Yes, Arnold's earlier Bond scores incorporated a lot of electro/techno music. But he'll, those scores were also way more memorable, because of the use of better compositions and melodies. Melodies that stick better to your mind.

    Therefore I still rate TND and TWINE Arnold's finest Bond scoring. Tracks like "Backseat Driver" and "007 Your Time Is Up" really used these wunderful secondary melodies. Not to mention some utterly romantic cues like "Snow Business". It also helped that both Bond films had secondary theme song: "Surrender" for TND and "Only Myself To Blame" for TWINE. They really helped giving the score more musical depth and soul.

    With CR and QOS I can't help but feeling Arnold forced himself too much to strip down the scores into something "rougher, more purer, less melódical". Result was that it sounded too forced. Also, when you decide not to use the James Bond theme, then for goodness sake compose a new action theme music, like "Surrender"! He didn't.
    Don't get me wrong, I don't mind any of Arnold's scores, and I really like Surrender, and Backseat Driver.

    I just felt with CR he really starting nailing a pure Barry sound. Vesper's theme in Venice just sounds like Somewhere in Time and Hanover Street, and moments in CR really had some of the best sounds we've heard in years - Bond driving his Ford Mondeo in Nassau, Bond trying on his tux for the first time, etc.

    In QoS Arnold really did evoke early 1970's John Barry, particularly Night at the Opera.

    As for scoring the films with songs, he did YKMN, and also No Good About Goodbyes with Shirley Bassey for QoS (which criminally didn't get used, and instead we had to suffer the worst Bond song of all time instead).....


    Much as I really don't like Arnold, I agree with you on your last post @jetsetwilly. CR & QoS were his best, and African Rundown & Night at the Opera were excellent. YKMN is outstanding - damn shame it's not on the soundtrack cd.

    Cheers.... :!!
    I'm not sure what planet Gustav Graves is on by not liking CR and QoS, yet liking all the Brozza tracks, but there you go. Each to their own. Maybe he is a Brozza fan and doesn't like Craig..... ;))

    For what I know, Gustav Graves prefers Craig to Brosnan. I guess the music for a certain Bond doesn't affect our preference for his performance, considering I prefer Brosnan to Craig but I think Arnold's scores for CR and QoS are better than those he did for TND, TWINE and DAD.

    Exactly. I'm a big big fan of the Craig films, but after QOS I couldn't help thinking "When will they replace Arnold?". There were even topics about that, quite popular ones, on this forum around that time :-).

    In all honesty, with Arnold everything started off so great, it was still good in TWINE. But on the whole Arnold's career for me on Bond feels like a downward spirale.

    I think you are in the minority with that opinion on here, because it looks like most fans think Arnold improved during his tenure, with CR and particularly QoS being his best work on Bond.
  • MalloryMallory Do mosquitoes have friends?
    Posts: 1,710
    Thomas Newman is being interviewed on Classic FM tomorrow at 5pm. Hopefully he drops some info about Spectre.

    http://www.classicfm.com/radio/shows/saturday-night-movies/thomas-randy-newman/
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