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Superman: The Man of Tomorrow

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  • TheSkyfallen06TheSkyfallen06 Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    Posts: 991
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    There’s a better SUPERMAN II between the films. A hybrid cut really brings out the best of both.

    Was there ever a hybrid Superman II Fan Cut? I remember watching one, but i don't really remember well...
  • TheSkyfallen06TheSkyfallen06 Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    Posts: 991
    Besides, anyone seen Superman & Lois? I just started watching it, so far, i like it, it's possibly the best Superman series after Smallville imo.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    TheSkyfallen06 wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    There’s a better SUPERMAN II between the films. A hybrid cut really brings out the best of both.

    Was there ever a hybrid Superman II Fan Cut? I remember watching one, but i don't really remember well...

    There’s tons of fan cuts but I don’t think there’s one that has stood out. It all depends on how you want things to play out.

    I probably wouldn’t use the turning the earth back because it’s ultimately unfinished. It almost has all the elements to make it work, but it’s missing the crucial moment where we see Superman making the decision in his head to turn back time because that was never filmed. We just suddenly see things move in reverse and then cut to him already having spun back the Earth out in space. It feels awkward. But that was the best the Donner Cut could do in terms of trying to present that ending.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    TheSkyfallen06 wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    There’s a better SUPERMAN II between the films. A hybrid cut really brings out the best of both.

    Was there ever a hybrid Superman II Fan Cut? I remember watching one, but i don't really remember well...

    There’s tons of fan cuts but I don’t think there’s one that has stood out. It all depends on how you want things to play out.

    I probably wouldn’t use the turning the earth back because it’s ultimately unfinished. It almost has all the elements to make it work, but it’s missing the crucial moment where we see Superman making the decision in his head to turn back time because that was never filmed. We just suddenly see things move in reverse and then cut to him already having spun back the Earth out in space. It feels awkward. But that was the best the Donner Cut could do in terms of trying to present that ending.

    Well, they weren't going to use turning time back a second time. But Donner was fired before he & Mankiewicz could come up with a new & better ending for II. As soon as you see the first frame of Perry going into the bathroom in the Donner Cut just click the skip button twice and the movie has a fine ending IMO.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    chrisisall wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    TheSkyfallen06 wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    There’s a better SUPERMAN II between the films. A hybrid cut really brings out the best of both.

    Was there ever a hybrid Superman II Fan Cut? I remember watching one, but i don't really remember well...

    There’s tons of fan cuts but I don’t think there’s one that has stood out. It all depends on how you want things to play out.

    I probably wouldn’t use the turning the earth back because it’s ultimately unfinished. It almost has all the elements to make it work, but it’s missing the crucial moment where we see Superman making the decision in his head to turn back time because that was never filmed. We just suddenly see things move in reverse and then cut to him already having spun back the Earth out in space. It feels awkward. But that was the best the Donner Cut could do in terms of trying to present that ending.

    Well, they weren't going to use turning time back a second time. But Donner was fired before he & Mankiewicz could come up with a new & better ending for II. As soon as you see the first frame of Perry going into the bathroom in the Donner Cut just click the skip button twice and the movie has a fine ending IMO.

    I understand all that. The Donner Cut is an oddity in that it’s supposed to function as a sequel to a film that didn’t end with the world being spun back. By that conceit, I’m not against the idea of seeing Superman spin back the Earth in Donner Cut, it just doesn’t quite have the punch it probably would have had if they had made the two movies as originally conceived. The Mankiewicz script really plays to the fact that Superman turned back time not because he wanted Lois to forget but because the Earth was supposed to be in flames in Donner’s vision. But because Lester only featured the villains attacking a small town and Metropolis, it never feels as grand in the Donner Cut. That along with never having shot footage of Superman making the decision to restore the world. I don’t think Superman wanted to make Lois forget, that’s just more of a consequence of restoring the world to what it was before Zod appeared. That’s why we get that moment with Superman and Lois in the North Pole with her telling him “just don’t forget, that’s all, don’t ever forget”.

    I don’t think Donner and Mankiewicz have ever discussed how they would have redone the ending. But my idea was always this:

    SUPERMAN ends with him turning back time, but to the booming voice of Brando saying “it is forbidden for you to interfere with human history”. II could have followed that up with Superman being stripped of his powers as punishment from Jor-El, for putting one person above humanity. As for the ending? I wonder if the Salkinds enforced the “Lois must forget” part. Cause they definitely didn’t need to with Lester’s version, but that’s where they went.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    II could have followed that up with Superman being stripped of his powers as punishment from Jor-El, for putting one person above humanity. As for the ending? I wonder if the Salkinds enforced the “Lois must forget” part. Cause they definitely didn’t need to with Lester’s version, but that’s where they went.
    It was a simple set up for more sequels that reset the status quo from the first movie. Keeping Lois remembering would have moved the narrative forward as Brainiac attacked Earth in the next movie... the idea used in part by the sad third film...

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    Problem is that by maintaining a “status quo” that essentially relegated Lois to no longer matter for future installments. That’s the filmmakers telling you “there won’t be any growth here”, which feels cheap. Of course, Lois ended up being relegated in favor of new love interests (albeit, both being more interested in Clark than Superman).
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Problem is that by maintaining a “status quo” that essentially relegated Lois to no longer matter for future installments. That’s the filmmakers telling you “there won’t be any growth here”, which feels cheap. Of course, Lois ended up being relegated in favor of new love interests (albeit, both being more interested in Clark than Superman).

    Superman III is fun from a purely comic book perspective for me, but IV is just an unwatchable mess IMO. Even the questionable Superman Returns is better than both of those....
    Donner was why the first movie was great, and the second movie was as good as it was.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,986
    Wasn’t Lois relegated more down to Kidder having a mix of personal problems and falling out with the producers?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited June 2023 Posts: 8,025
    mtm wrote: »
    Wasn’t Lois relegated more down to Kidder having a mix of personal problems and falling out with the producers?

    She talked a lot of smack about the Salkinds in 1981 on Time Out magazine. So did Reeve, but because he was the star they couldn’t dump him as easily (though many would argue SUPERMAN III is more Pryor than Reeve, so that’s something.
    “I’ve been told not to talk about it but I don’t care,” Kidder said. “They are truly despicable people and it’s time it came out.”

    “They tried to screw me out of $40,000, which was a huge amount of money to me and very little to them. I was in the middle of a divorce and I was badly in debt and I have my child to look after. But I was recommended to a lawyer who had helped all the people in Musketeers, and as a result I renegotiated my deal and made a fortune on the second one. They were behaving totally illegally and it ended up costing them over a million.”

    “Donner made my career,” she continues. “He made Chris’, he made the Salkinds billions. And they turned around and stabbed him in the back. I mean, I have nothing but contempt for them.”

    Kidder: “It was the only movie I’ve ever worked on where the crew demanded their cash in advance every week, because initially the checks were bouncing.”

    And just for fun, here’s Reeve not mincing words.
    “Donner had an impossible row with the producers over quality. On Superman I he was the only one who kept things from being done in a shabby way and kept our morale high and made everyone do our best. And then he was fired behind my back and they — briefly — brought in Guy Hamilton.

    “There was nothing I could have done to get him back because all the contracts were signed before I was even told. So I felt a tremendous resentment against the producers for being so devious.

    “I was also very apprehensive because suddenly there was this new script that I didn’t feel was anything near as good as what Donner had worked on for Part II. And I think it’s appalling when you cut out a major actor like Marlon Brando so you don’t have to pay him the gross, when decisions are made for economic reasons rather than for artistic reasons, that kind of banking style of filmmaking where everything is conducted in terms of international deals.”

    “Frankly I found the producers untrustworthy, devious and unfortunate as people. They just are not the sort of people you want to give much time to and I really did try to keep out of the business side because it’s like walking through treacle. In my view the way Superman II was produced is the lowest you can go without actually cheating. But I’m talking about the production, not the film.”

    WOOEEE

    Anyway…

    I never watched the extended TV cut of SUPERMAN II, but just caught these. Lotta people gripe about humor in MCU, but man I didn’t realize Richard Lester had filmed a lot more of those television viewing gags that were thankfully cut out. They feel right in line with SUPERMAN III, and the predilection towards cultural stereotype humor, now including Japanese

  • TheSkyfallen06TheSkyfallen06 Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    Posts: 991
  • itsrawitsraw
    Posts: 5
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Wasn’t Lois relegated more down to Kidder having a mix of personal problems and falling out with the producers?

    She talked a lot of smack about the Salkinds in 1981 on Time Out magazine. So did Reeve, but because he was the star they couldn’t dump him as easily (though many would argue SUPERMAN III is more Pryor than Reeve, so that’s something.
    “I’ve been told not to talk about it but I don’t care,” Kidder said. “They are truly despicable people and it’s time it came out.”

    “They tried to screw me out of $40,000, which was a huge amount of money to me and very little to them. I was in the middle of a divorce and I was badly in debt and I have my child to look after. But I was recommended to a lawyer who had helped all the people in Musketeers, and as a result I renegotiated my deal and made a fortune on the second one. They were behaving totally illegally and it ended up costing them over a million.”

    “Donner made my career,” she continues. “He made Chris’, he made the Salkinds billions. And they turned around and stabbed him in the back. I mean, I have nothing but contempt for them.”

    Kidder: “It was the only movie I’ve ever worked on where the crew demanded their cash in advance every week, because initially the checks were bouncing.”

    And just for fun, here’s Reeve not mincing words.
    “Donner had an impossible row with the producers over quality. On Superman I he was the only one who kept things from being done in a shabby way and kept our morale high and made everyone do our best. And then he was fired behind my back and they — briefly — brought in Guy Hamilton.

    “There was nothing I could have done to get him back because all the contracts were signed before I was even told. So I felt a tremendous resentment against the producers for being so devious.

    “I was also very apprehensive because suddenly there was this new script that I didn’t feel was anything near as good as what Donner had worked on for Part II. And I think it’s appalling when you cut out a major actor like Marlon Brando so you don’t have to pay him the gross, when decisions are made for economic reasons rather than for artistic reasons, that kind of banking style of filmmaking where everything is conducted in terms of international deals.”

    “Frankly I found the producers untrustworthy, devious and unfortunate as people. They just are not the sort of people you want to give much time to and I really did try to keep out of the business side because it’s like walking through treacle. In my view the way Superman II was produced is the lowest you can go without actually cheating. But I’m talking about the production, not the film.”

    WOOEEE

    Anyway…

    I never watched the extended TV cut of SUPERMAN II, but just caught these. Lotta people gripe about humor in MCU, but man I didn’t realize Richard Lester had filmed a lot more of those television viewing gags that were thankfully cut out. They feel right in line with SUPERMAN III, and the predilection towards cultural stereotype humor, now including Japanese


    The more I read about them (I've been reading Superman vs Hollywood) the Salkinds come across like total scumbags, and the faults in the franchise seem entirely down to them. Superman 1 probably would've turned into a mess if it weren't for Donners diligence and dedication.

    It's ironic that they handed the rights off to even bigger scumbags (Golan/Globus) after Supergirl tanked.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    They’re classical examples of film producers who have no creative bones in their body. Getting a director like Donner was just plain dumb luck in fact. Ilya Salkind had a method for how he would search for a Superman director. He would simply go down the list of the top grossing films of the year and start making offers to the directors behind those. It had nothing to do with whether they were suitable for Superman, it was purely because of how much money their films made. Donner only got the gig because THE OMEN was in the top ten of 1976 and everyone else wasn’t interested.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 23,395
    Lois shoots Clark - Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut

    I love Margot in this scene.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    I look forward to the new actress, I think she has that same vibe and energy Kidder had that made her a lovable Lois.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 23,395
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I look forward to the new actress, I think she has that same vibe and energy Kidder had that made her a lovable Lois.

    Agree as soon as I saw her I thought that is Lois.
  • TheSkyfallen06TheSkyfallen06 Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    edited February 20 Posts: 991
    [DELETED]
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025




  • Scaramanga1974Scaramanga1974
    Posts: 665
    MaxCasino wrote: »


    Just don't kill him off for shock value like Zack Snyder did.

    Zack Snyder just didn't get Superman unlike Donner and Singer
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    I’d argue Singer didn’t get Superman either. However, I did like that brief scene with Clark and Jimmy hanging out at the bar as pals. That was sorely lacking in the Reeve films. And of course, there’s what Snyder did with Jimmy.
  • TheSkyfallen06TheSkyfallen06 Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    Posts: 991
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I’d argue Singer didn’t get Superman either. However, I did like that brief scene with Clark and Jimmy hanging out at the bar as pals. That was sorely lacking in the Reeve films. And of course, there’s what Snyder did with Jimmy.

    What Singer did was basically trying to do a soft-reboot/tribute/sequel of the Donnerverse all at the same time, i'd say Brandon Routh was robbed from having a good Superman outing, as his performance imo was great.
    Happily, he got his second chance as Superman on CW's Crisis on Infinite Earths and he killed it.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    It was weird how PR made such a big deal of how Singer was supposedly a big fan of the Donner film, because absolutely nothing about SUPERMAN RETURNS carried the spirit of either Donner or even Lester. You take away the John Williams theme and it’s just a glum film where everyone is miserable. So when people claim that Donner’s Superman can’t work and point to SUPERMAN RETURNS as proof of that, I just roll my eyes.

    And yeah, Routh was absolutely robbed. The material he was given brought him down. The guy has a lot more personality and comedic timing that Singer never uses.

    But Cavill was also robbed. He got one solo film, and then with each succeeding appearance his role diminished. While I put that on WB for not giving him a proper standalone sequel, I also put that on Snyder for taking the direction he did with BvS and JL. The studio wasn’t demanding that they kill off Superman and give him a reduced role in JL. That’s all on Snyder. So when folks say James Gunn let Cavill down, the hard truth is that Snyder let Cavill down.
  • TheSkyfallen06TheSkyfallen06 Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    edited July 2023 Posts: 991
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    It was weird how PR made such a big deal of how Singer was supposedly a big fan of the Donner film, because absolutely nothing about SUPERMAN RETURNS carried the spirit of either Donner or even Lester. You take away the John Williams theme and it’s just a glum film where everyone is miserable. So when people claim that Donner’s Superman can’t work and point to SUPERMAN RETURNS as proof of that, I just roll my eyes.

    And yeah, Routh was absolutely robbed. The material he was given brought him down. The guy has a lot more personality and comedic timing that Singer never uses.

    But Cavill was also robbed. He got one solo film, and then with each succeeding appearance his role diminished. While I put that on WB for not giving him a proper standalone sequel, I also put that on Snyder for taking the direction he did with BvS and JL. The studio wasn’t demanding that they kill off Superman and give him a reduced role in JL. That’s all on Snyder. So when folks say James Gunn let Cavill down, the hard truth is that Snyder let Cavill down.

    Agreed.
  • TheSkyfallen06TheSkyfallen06 Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    Posts: 991
    I'm sorry.

    zc0akjkaqqbb1.png?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=7351e1903317d4b2112360e13ca32ff9f3be60fc

    Is this legit?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    Where did you get that image?

    Because that news isn’t showing up anywhere else.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited July 2023 Posts: 23,395
    Thankfully Corden is in his mid 40's, no way that will happen. Jimmy can not be 15 years older than Supes. Plus if its just the origin of Clark starting at the Planet Jimmy needs to be younger.
  • TheSkyfallen06TheSkyfallen06 Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    Posts: 991
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Where did you get that image?

    Because that news isn’t showing up anywhere else.

    It says it's from Reddit.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    TheSkyfallen06 wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Where did you get that image?

    Because that news isn’t showing up anywhere else.

    It says it's from Reddit.

    There’s the answer.
  • AstonLotusAstonLotus
    edited July 2023 Posts: 1,394
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    It was weird how PR made such a big deal of how Singer was supposedly a big fan of the Donner film, because absolutely nothing about SUPERMAN RETURNS carried the spirit of either Donner or even Lester. You take away the John Williams theme and it’s just a glum film where everyone is miserable. So when people claim that Donner’s Superman can’t work and point to SUPERMAN RETURNS as proof of that, I just roll my eyes.

    And yeah, Routh was absolutely robbed. The material he was given brought him down. The guy has a lot more personality and comedic timing that Singer never uses.

    But Cavill was also robbed. He got one solo film, and then with each succeeding appearance his role diminished. While I put that on WB for not giving him a proper standalone sequel, I also put that on Snyder for taking the direction he did with BvS and JL. The studio wasn’t demanding that they kill off Superman and give him a reduced role in JL. That’s all on Snyder. So when folks say James Gunn let Cavill down, the hard truth is that Snyder let Cavill down.

    Disagree.

    I loved Snyders vision.He decided to do his own take on the character and didn’t rely on nostalgic callbacks to the Donner film.I love Superman ‘78 but it was time to move on.

    I blame the studio for what happened with BVS and JS.The Snyder cuts of those two films show that he knew what he was doing and will stand the test of time rather than MCUifued film’s that came out in that universe after.

    And for the love of god,I hope they don’t cast James Corden as Jimmy.The guy is a scumbag who is simply not funny.I’m not totally onboard for Gunns Superman going forward as it doesn’t seem to be in his wheelhouse and he’s already made a mistake filling his “ solo “ Superman film with so many other heroes
  • TheSkyfallen06TheSkyfallen06 Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    Posts: 991
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    It was weird how PR made such a big deal of how Singer was supposedly a big fan of the Donner film, because absolutely nothing about SUPERMAN RETURNS carried the spirit of either Donner or even Lester. You take away the John Williams theme and it’s just a glum film where everyone is miserable. So when people claim that Donner’s Superman can’t work and point to SUPERMAN RETURNS as proof of that, I just roll my eyes.

    And yeah, Routh was absolutely robbed. The material he was given brought him down. The guy has a lot more personality and comedic timing that Singer never uses.

    But Cavill was also robbed. He got one solo film, and then with each succeeding appearance his role diminished. While I put that on WB for not giving him a proper standalone sequel, I also put that on Snyder for taking the direction he did with BvS and JL. The studio wasn’t demanding that they kill off Superman and give him a reduced role in JL. That’s all on Snyder. So when folks say James Gunn let Cavill down, the hard truth is that Snyder let Cavill down.

    Disagree.

    I loved Snyders vision.He decided to do his own take on the character and didn’t rely on nostalgic callbacks to the Donner film.I love Superman ‘78 but it was time to move on.

    I blame the studio for what happened with BVS and JS.The Snyder cuts of those two films show that he knew what he was doing and will stand the test of time rather than MCUifued film’s that came out in that universe after.

    And for the love of god,I hope they don’t cast James Corden as Jimmy.The guy is a scumbag who is simply not funny.I’m not totally onboard for Gunns Superman going forward as it doesn’t seem to be in his wheelhouse and he’s already made a mistake filling his “ solo “ Superman film with so many other heroes

    How about you wait and see the movie by yourself instead of thinking it's going to be bad when it didn't even come out yet?
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