Star Wars (1977 - present)

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  • edited December 2017 Posts: 533
    I just saw "The Last Jedi". Oh my God! I couldn't believe that the man who wrote and directed "Looper" had written and directed such a piece of crap like "The Last Jedi". I don't mind angst and moral ambiguity. In fact, I like it. That's why I'm such a big fan of "The Empire Strikes Back" and the Prequel Trilogy. But "The Last Jedi"? I wasn't impressed. It wasn't as original as I thought it would be. And it seemed as if the relationship between two of the major characters nearly bordered on rape fantasy.
  • Posts: 684
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I love almost the whole movie. It is blasphemy to the most hardcore SW fans, but I have had it ranked above the original SW for my whole life pretty much. ESB is still my #1 though.
    ROTJ was my absolute favorite as a kid. The entire Han rescue pays off everything Luke's character had been building towards. Sheer joy to watch.
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Unfortunately, the original trilogy is the only consistently good set of any of the Star Wars films. Episodes I and II are both extremely flawed for the prequel trilogy, and I have several nitpicks with the sequel trilogy. It's controversial, but Revenge of the Sith is actually still my favorite SW film of the century.
    ROTS is absolutely my favorite of the prequels, and I wouldn't argue with you for having it as your favorite post-OT.
    GetCarter wrote: »
    I am probably alone in this, but I think The Phantom Menace is the best of the prequels.

    Sure, it gets blasted for Jar Jar and the kid, but I always enjoy it.

    Darth Maul, Qui-gon, fun Trade Federation / battle droids, big creatures, a nice three-tiered climax reminiscent of ROTJ.

    And ... no Hadyn Christensen angst.

    TPM has a lot going for IMO.
    I have it behind ROTS. But I like all the prequels.
    The second half of RotS is like one long montage of destruction.
    Have you ever tried watched any of the prequels with the sound off? They're amazing visually (design and movement, not just effects).
    Yes, but especially in that scene where Samuel L. Jackson is killed, anakin stops the death of the emperor, then allows the emperor to kill Jackson, then bows down and accepts becoming a sith, it’s just silly and frankly quite cringey.
    Sci-fi serial schlock. If it's any consolation I believe that was exactly what Lucas was going for.
    Shardlake wrote: »
    I think the reaction to TLJ is going to see quite a few fans now trying to justify the prequels and say they aren't that bad anymore but to me they were bad and are still bad.
    Possibly, but that was bound to happen. These Disney films reinvigorated SW in the public awareness at the same time that the kids who grew up on the films found themselves with a voice. Aside from that new films in a sequence tend naturally to invite re-examination of old ones. As Bond fans we know this quite well I imagine ;)
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    The prequels are no OHMSS.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 16,358
    My one sentence review of Star Wars films.

    Phantom Menace: There's always a bigger fish.
    Attack of the Clones: Insult us some more, please.
    Revenge Of The Sith: Some good action, at least.
    *Rogue One: A proper and heartfelt prequel.
    *Star Wars: Cinematic perfection before the CGI tinkering.
    *Empire Strikes Back: Exceptionally excellent for a movie with no real conclusion.
    *Return Of The Jedi: Mark Hamill almost singlehandedly makes this worth watching.
    Force Awakens: Mildly watchable fan fiction.
    Last Jedi (not seen yet but I will, this is a prediction): Nicer looking fan fiction-y stuff (?).
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,725
    I was thinking a bit about Star Wars today and I realized all the good faith I have in this franchise stems from the lore surrounding it. For example I like all the stuff and mystery in ROS where you wonder who Darth plaugus is and what his deal is and who is this palpatine guy? And especially Darth Vader, I think he is an incredible character and really all I want from Disney now is a Darth Vader solo film where he hunts down Jedi.

    Like in the old films you really felt scared when you saw the might of the empire stand against the rebellion and you had respect for the this ensemble of creative and menacing villains who were used sparingly but just enough to make a deep impact on the viewer. It was also shrouded in mystery and kept you guessing.

    This is continued on by Lucas I feel in the prequels where you get this exploration of the universe and the differant relationships characters have to the culture that surrounds them with the same strong villains making passing refrences to exciting themes.

    And this is where I feel this new trilogy is failing. It just doesn’t seem to be going anywhere or introducing us to the menace of the first order with any cool villains or awesome Sith Lords who have a connection to some ancient relegion. That’s what I can really boil my complaints down to with these new ones.

    That’s why I thought RO was so amazing, because it was able to recapture that old feeling of the giant scary empire destroying any thing getting in its way with awesome villains and great use of Darth Vader and scenes like that showing off this incredible universe of characters, and I feel like the new trilogy hasn’t taken advantage of this vast universe and all the lore.


    So I would like to sees vader film or even a knights of the old republic would be nice.
  • Posts: 10,548
    Safe to say on this rewatch, unfortunately, ROTS isn’t as good as I remember. I think it could be just because I enjoy it so much more than the first two prequels. It has a so-so first half, but at least manages to finish strong. Current ranking, with two left to go in the marathon:

    1. ESB
    2. ROTJ
    3. SW / ANH
    4. ROTS
    5. TLJ
    6. TFA
  • Posts: 10,548
    ROTS’s second half is some of my favorite SW ever, and certainly my favorite post-original SW content. That darn first half prevents it from being higher unfortunately.
  • edited December 2017 Posts: 4,427
    @JamesBondKenya "Like in the old films you really felt scared when you saw the might of the empire" - yes , spot on, TLJ breaks this within 30 seconds with Po's smart alec micky taking. I was unconfortable with that. If the rebels don't take the Empire seriously, then why should the audience? I'm mystified as to what they thought they were doing.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2017 Posts: 23,883
    There is a trend (discernible but not pervasive) in major blockbusters towards a lighter touch. Perhaps TLJ was just playing into that. Alternatively, it was just PC politics. The 'bad' guys are not to be taken seriously. They're just blowhard doofuses
    (and usually men - notice Phasma's face wasn't shown).
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,835
    You felt scared when the Empire showed up in the older movies? They couldn't shoot for shit!
  • Posts: 7,093
    You felt scared when the Empire showed up in the older movies? They couldn't shoot for shit!

    Indeed!
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Enemy of the state
    Posts: 41,656
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  • Posts: 684
    I was thinking a bit about Star Wars today and I realized all the good faith I have in this franchise stems from the lore surrounding it. For example I like all the stuff and mystery in ROS where you wonder who Darth plaugus is and what his deal is and who is this palpatine guy? And especially Darth Vader, I think he is an incredible character and really all I want from Disney now is a Darth Vader solo film where he hunts down Jedi.
    @JamesBondKenya I agree re: the depth of the imagination in the Lucas films. TFA and TLJ seem to me to not have the galaxy figured out much beyond what's on the screen.
    Like in the old films you really felt scared when you saw the might of the empire stand against the rebellion and you had respect for the this ensemble of creative and menacing villains who were used sparingly but just enough to make a deep impact on the viewer. It was also shrouded in mystery and kept you guessing.

    This is continued on by Lucas I feel in the prequels where you get this exploration of the universe and the differant relationships characters have to the culture that surrounds them with the same strong villains making passing refrences to exciting themes.

    And this is where I feel this new trilogy is failing. It just doesn’t seem to be going anywhere or introducing us to the menace of the first order with any cool villains or awesome Sith Lords who have a connection to some ancient relegion. That’s what I can really boil my complaints down to with these new ones.
    The sequel trilogy is lacking a threat for sure. Though I do like Kylo Ren as a character, and think he's the most interesting of the new characters, I don't find him menacing at all. And it's not just Sith but all around. General Hux comes across as a buffoon.
    So I would like to sees vader film or even a knights of the old republic would be nice.
    I imagine they'll get around to the Old Republic eventually. Churning out one of these a year, maybe even quite soon. If they do, I hope they use any related notes/worldbuilding Lucas might have already done.
  • Posts: 10,548
    Watching AOTC now. The first few scenes actually aren’t too bad overall besides Jar Jar. The story setup is decent.
  • Posts: 10,548
    The Anakin/Padme sections are indeed what drags AOTC down. The acting can just be so terrible in them. Too bad it's so much of the movie.
  • Posts: 7,093
    FoxRox wrote: »
    The Anakin/Padme sections are indeed what drags AOTC down. The acting can just be so terrible in them. Too bad it's so much of the movie.

    That is not the only horrible section if the movie. The entire second half from the army robot fabric to the cave is an uncomfortable borefest. Horrible action with no tension, and it never ends...
  • Posts: 10,548
    jobo wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    The Anakin/Padme sections are indeed what drags AOTC down. The acting can just be so terrible in them. Too bad it's so much of the movie.

    That is not the only horrible section if the movie. The entire second half from the army robot fabric to the cave is an uncomfortable borefest. Horrible action with no tension, and it never ends...

    I have to agree as my rewatch has ended. The only parts kind of neat are the arena sequence and the battles with Count Dooku. The first 25 minutes overall are actually the best part of the film (from the start through Zam’s death).
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe "I need a year off" Craig
    Posts: 7,305
    Actually Obi Wan sluething around on his own and investigating Komino is probably the best part of Attack of the Clones for me.
  • Posts: 10,548
    Actually Obi Wan sluething around on his own and investigating Komino is probably the best part of Attack of the Clones for me.

    That’s what gets me through the middle scenes of the movie. Obi Wan is easily one of the best things the prequels had going for them. It will be interesting to see if AOTC can stay above TPM or fall one place in my ranking.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    I liked Obi-Wan's tussle with Jango on Kamino.
  • edited December 2017 Posts: 4,427
    I'm watching Raiders at the moment. It shares with the original SW a real sense of adventure, of childhood wonder, simple stories, well paced and not over thought out.

    There is a fantastic pdf online that is a transcript of the group call between Kasden, Lucas and Speilberg when they first discussed Raiders. What it shows is that all three had a real understanding and respect for this genre. All are of the same age and bring with them the legacy of the swashbuckling, simpler adventures of a previous era. All of the time, when they ae chatting, they are referencing cinema iconography and stories of a previous era.

    This shines through IMHO both with Raiders and the Star Wars trilogy. They just had a great feel for this "boys own" adventure genre and the talent to pull it off.

    One wonders if scriptwriters/directers from the next generation have the same understanding and respect for this art form. I struggled to see it at all in TLJ.

    Kasden has scripted Solo and Howard is directing. Howard has a history of putting character before action so parhaps , even though my gut reaction was its a bad idea, I think its down to these two to get us back on track and save the series. "Raiders in Space" is the type of thing the audience would love. Fingers crossed.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2017 Posts: 23,883
    patb wrote: »
    They just had a great feel for this "boys own" adventure genre and the talent to pull it off.
    Therein lies the issue. It's no longer a 'boys' own. Rather, it's all inclusive, and the stories have to adjust to accommodate the viewing audiences globally. It's about ethnicity and it's also about creating a story which can emotionally resonate with both sexes and across borders.

    EDIT: The same thing is impacting Bond too.
  • Posts: 4,427
    The Princess was a very strong character in SW. Wise cracking, independent etc. I dont think there is an issue here. I spent 2 hours watching youtube reviews of TLJ last night. All of the critiques are spot in IMHO and none of then concern the above issues. I think perhaps its too easy blaming sexual equality etc when the real issue is a lack of scriptwriters who really deeply understand their craft.
    You could take TLJ and recast all with white males and it would not make it a better film.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2017 Posts: 23,883
    It's not a question of what they did making it good or bad. It's a matter of it being obvious (both with respect to female power within the narrative, and ethnic involvement). Perfectly understandable imho.

    When one is trying to deliberately please a global audience of men and women (and boys and girls) in order to make money and sell toys/accessories, inevitably one ends up with a watered down product. There are too many constituents to appease.

    Ultimately, while far from perfect, I think this was a half decent effort. I much preferred it to the last Bond film, although they are similarly polarizing (with TLJ seeming even more so at the outset).
  • QsAssistantQsAssistant All those moments lost in time... like tears in rain
    Posts: 1,789
    I heard a rumor we are supposed to be getting something new today. Not quite sure what it is but some are speculating that it's the SOLO trailer. I'm not holding my breath for it but I am hopeful we'll get something good for SOLO today. I think us fans need it right now to get us away from arguing about TLJ.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,835
    It's only five months away, so that would make sense.
  • Posts: 10,548
    Looking like TPM will stay at the bottom of my ranking (besides RO); it is the most uninteresting of the official series IMO. AOTC has a few more scenes that I enjoy. The only things that I really like about TPM are Qui-Gon, Darth Maul, the climax, and the pod race scene. Almost all the stuff in between is just dull and silly.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 16,358
    Just showed my Son Revenge Of The Sith- he'd never seen it before, and I hadn't seen it in a decade. He said it was HEAVILY flawed, but interesting nonetheless... and it's a movie he never needs to see again. I actually found myself really into it, since my last viewing was with resentful shields up. And yeah, the last few minutes DID make me cry a little bit. Don't tell anyone though... ;)
  • QsAssistantQsAssistant All those moments lost in time... like tears in rain
    Posts: 1,789
    I actually love ROTS. Some acting and dialogue need to be polished and the "she's lost the will to live" crap needs to be changed. Other than that I really enjoy ROTS.
    After thinking about TLJ I may need to move it down a spot in my ranking. It's an enjoyable film but thinking about it there's not a whole lot that happens in it. I'll be seeing it again soon and I'll decide where to rank it then.
    Right now my ranking is...

    ESB
    ANH
    TFA
    ROTJ
    TLJ
    ROTS
    AOTC
    RO
    TPM
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