Jason Bourne (2002 - present)

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  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 6,161
    bondjames wrote: »
    For me 'The Bourne Ultimatum' was the pivotal Bourne-film. It had a lot more to offer than just action.
    For me, Identity and Supremacy blow Ultimatum clean out of the water in terms of story depth and insight into Bourne as a man and character. The third film was more the action fest with an almost superman Bourne in my view, while the first two showed him vulnerable and scared even. Those two films forged my interest in his persona and the last two have just ridden the wave.

    I love Ultimatum (I thought it was the perfect bookend) as well but I have to agree with you on the character building aspect. Supremacy especially built a man out of the myth that Doug Liman crafted - with the Irina Neski scene at the end being one of the finest exchanges in the whole series. We learn so much about Bourne as a person without actually being told those things in the dialogue. That's why I find Supremacy to be Damon's finest performance in the black long coat.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited August 2016 Posts: 15,423
    I do agree that the Irina Neski scene is overtly brilliant. An emotional scene perfectly executed without telling you much. It's my favourite scene in Supremacy.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    edited August 2016 Posts: 11,090
    Ok so I finally saw this last night and I'm glad ro report I am happy. Obviously no spoilers...

    Yes, this film is by no means a game changer and could easily have come out in 2009 or thereabouts. I can understand some people being underwhelmed considering the wait. However, this film is a through and through Bourne film and Bourne is as unapologetically badass as ever.

    From the familiar beat downs, brisk walks, to the ear pieces, John Powell music and quick pit stops at the nearest Internet Cafe to utilise a search engine had me smiling. That's all I need; a Bourne film that feels like a Bourne film.

    The fisticuffs were great and the frequency of such fights were typical of past Damon entries and the fight between Bourne and Cassel's asset may have lacked the intricate choreography of a couple of past entries but the brutality of it was beyond satisfying. Speaking of Cassel I thought he did an amazing job and irrespective of his screen time he didn't disappoint.

    Before watching the film, I was always adamant that if I could enjoy this more than SP then it would be a win for me and not only did this happen to be the case but Jason Bourne illustrated just how uncreative and pedestrian a film maker Mendes is when it comes to this genre of film making. The bike chase in Greece and then the car chase in Vegas massacre whatever the hell the 2 so called chasers in SP were (the snow plane chase/Rome chase). I just like the made to look simple yet incredibly inventive approach applied to these Bourne films where something as minor as Bourne walking and looking over his shoulder gets one's heart racing.

    The overall sense of urgency, hyped by the pounding score and the need to act and think fast from Bourne and his antagonists are creatively put together as per usual but these are small things than make a huge difference for these sort of films that give it the edge it needs to be fully immersed into this murky world where irrespective of being good or bad you can die at any time by any one.

    This Bourne film isn't perfect and has its fair share of problems, the quick cut editting reached max factor levels of 11 at times and
    Nick's death
    felt empty but I thought the good far outweighed the negatives and I thought tge personal angle of the story was simple and yet significant enough without being ridiculous or overblown like the whole Blofeld fiasco. The ending was a classic Bourne moment and by that point I thought we weren't going to get that badass
    I can see you but you can't see me moment.
    .

    As it stands my ranking:

    Supremacy
    Identity
    Ultimatum
    Jason Bourne
  • Posts: 11,119
    01) The Bourne Ultimatum
    02) The Bourne Identity
    03) The Bourne Legacy
    04) The Bourne Supremacy
    05) Jason Bourne
  • RC7RC7
    edited August 2016 Posts: 10,432
    Haven't seen it yet, but @Creasy47, you're bang on the money. The astute Mark Kermode said once that you can't judge a comedy by the same rules as a drama, and that's correct.

    If you're going into a comedy expecting existential crises and social commentaries about current day issues or deep character studies in an action film made up of old 80s stars, that means you're not really engaging objective thinking and taking the films as they are, but instead as what you want them to be. It's okay not to like a movie, as that's purely subjective, and some things don't connect with everyone in such a massive movie marketplace. But expecting a genre film to do something another genre does better in their cinematic rulebook is erroneous. You're more than free to go into a noir film expecting all the loose ends to be tied up at the end and for the hero to win the day and get the girl, but genre conventions are stacked against such expectations and they will require changing. In fact, some of the most memorable films are those that subvert your expectations and remain unforgettable because they refuse to budge and end the way you want them to.

    Bourne is a genre definer like Bond is, with sets of rules they follow closely. It may not be your thing, but it is what it is. Bond films were able to adapt into character studies well with the Craig era, but I don't think Bourne has that same appeal, as the films are less about him as a character and more about what he responds to and how, like being chased by the CIA and having to survive it. He's extremely reactionary, while Bond is very much the man of action.

    I may be wrong, but I think I think what @Gustav_Graves might be alluding to is that it's a less expansive and multi-layered proposition than Bond. I think it's pretty hard, whichever way you cut it, to imagine any genuine longevity in the franchise. Both it and M:I are vehicles for their respective stars. They attempted to expand with Renner and then balked, and it remains to be seen what happens to M:I in a post-Cruise world (it has a better shot than Bourne IMO).

    The trouble these days is that everyone wants an ongoing franchise or multi-verse and the simple fact is that some stories and characters don't lend themselves to this model. Sometimes you just have to step away. Bond has become about so much more than the man himself, it's a cultural institution that is afforded time to refresh and change direction. I'm not sure that is, or will, be the case with Bourne. Much like a Rocky, or Rambo, or Die Hard it is bound to its template and star.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Frank Marshall seems to agree:

    http://variety.com/2016/film/news/matt-damon-box-office-jason-bourne-1201827295/

    I think it can be done, both with MI & Bourne, but one has to get creative. You just can't insert some chump (sorry Renner) as a replacement in both cases. Both Bourne and Hunt can take on different and more senior roles within a broader universe, but one needs a solid charismatic lead to anchor it.

    That's what all franchises have to wrestle with these days (including the upcoming 'young' McClane in DH6). There just doesn't seem to be that many American leads with any heft in their 30s out there except for Chris Pine/Pratt, which is why they are both somewhat overexposed as it is.
  • Posts: 1,678
    I think Jason Bourne was better than Ultimatum & on par with Supremacy. It was original, likeable, entertaining, & you cared about Jason. The film was relevant, I dont think Ultimatum tied everything up, up until now we never got an anwser as to why Bourne joined the program.

    I thought Bourne/Damon also brought more emotion here than he did with Supremacy & Ultimatum. Many scenes were similar to Identitiy in this regard. The scene with Malcolm Smith brought back a feeling of how desperate, frustrated, & angry he was similarly in Identity.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 It was this or the priesthood.
    Posts: 28,231
    @RC7, yes, Bourne can't recast like Bond has, it doesn't have the history and years of proving it works well enough to warrant. Bond is very much a special case in the movie world, where such an iconic character isn't completely trashed the minute another actor is picked.
    bondjames wrote: »
    Frank Marshall seems to agree:

    http://variety.com/2016/film/news/matt-damon-box-office-jason-bourne-1201827295/

    I think it can be done, both with MI & Bourne, but one has to get creative. You just can't insert some chump (sorry Renner) as a replacement in both cases. Both Bourne and Hunt can take on different and more senior roles within a broader universe, but one needs a solid charismatic lead to anchor it.

    That's what all franchises have to wrestle with these days (including the upcoming 'young' McClane in DH6). There just doesn't seem to be that many American leads with any heft in their 30s out there except for Chris Pine/Pratt, which is why they are both somewhat overexposed as it is.

    Marshall isn't saying that Renner is out in the future, though, which I don't think the writer got. He's saying that nobody will play Bourne but Matt, and nothing more. There's still the chance of a future movie team-up between Bourne and Cross, if they want to go that route. I think that'd be interesting, especially if the first time they meet they get into a fist fight.
  • Posts: 444
    Tuck91 wrote: »
    I think Jason Bourne was better than Ultimatum & on par with Supremacy. It was original, likeable, entertaining, & you cared about Jason. The film was relevant, I dont think Ultimatum tied everything up, up until now we never got an anwser as to why Bourne joined the program.

    I thought Bourne/Damon also brought more emotion here than he did with Supremacy & Ultimatum. Many scenes were similar to Identitiy in this regard. The scene with Malcolm Smith brought back a feeling of how desperate, frustrated, & angry he was similarly in Identity.

    I agree with all of this. At the time I found Ultimatum a little overrated over Supremacy - although I enjoy it an awful lot more during a Bourne marathon - and find Jason Bourne a better follow up to Ultimatum than Ultimatum was to Supremacy but appreciate this is the minority view!

    Damon is a man of few words in this film but you do see glimpses of a more emotional and compassionate side to him that has been missing in the previous three films.

    If the franchise is to continue that side of the character has to develop more so we can invest in him.

    That said his almost robotic machine like crusade to avenge himself on Dewey and the asset was very satisfying.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2016 Posts: 23,883
    @RC7, yes, Bourne can't recast like Bond has, it doesn't have the history and years of proving it works well enough to warrant. Bond is very much a special case in the movie world, where such an iconic character isn't completely trashed the minute another actor is picked.
    bondjames wrote: »
    Frank Marshall seems to agree:

    http://variety.com/2016/film/news/matt-damon-box-office-jason-bourne-1201827295/

    I think it can be done, both with MI & Bourne, but one has to get creative. You just can't insert some chump (sorry Renner) as a replacement in both cases. Both Bourne and Hunt can take on different and more senior roles within a broader universe, but one needs a solid charismatic lead to anchor it.

    That's what all franchises have to wrestle with these days (including the upcoming 'young' McClane in DH6). There just doesn't seem to be that many American leads with any heft in their 30s out there except for Chris Pine/Pratt, which is why they are both somewhat overexposed as it is.

    Marshall isn't saying that Renner is out in the future, though, which I don't think the writer got. He's saying that nobody will play Bourne but Matt, and nothing more. There's still the chance of a future movie team-up between Bourne and Cross, if they want to go that route. I think that'd be interesting, especially if the first time they meet they get into a fist fight.
    I'm open to that. Bourne vs. Cross would make for an interesting plot, especially if one is an 'asset' and the other is the rogue. I would hope that after an excellent initial fight, they realize they've both been played, and subsequently team up to go after the 'real' threat.
    Cowley wrote: »
    Tuck91 wrote: »
    I think Jason Bourne was better than Ultimatum & on par with Supremacy. It was original, likeable, entertaining, & you cared about Jason. The film was relevant, I dont think Ultimatum tied everything up, up until now we never got an anwser as to why Bourne joined the program.

    I thought Bourne/Damon also brought more emotion here than he did with Supremacy & Ultimatum. Many scenes were similar to Identitiy in this regard. The scene with Malcolm Smith brought back a feeling of how desperate, frustrated, & angry he was similarly in Identity.
    I agree with all of this. At the time I found Ultimatum a little overrated over Supremacy - although I enjoy it an awful lot more during a Bourne marathon - and find Jason Bourne a better follow up to Ultimatum than Ultimatum was to Supremacy but appreciate this is the minority view!

    Damon is a man of few words in this film but you do see glimpses of a more emotional and compassionate side to him that has been missing in the previous three films.

    If the franchise is to continue that side of the character has to develop more so we can invest in him.

    That said his almost robotic machine like crusade to avenge himself on Dewey and the asset was very satisfying.
    I'm beginning to agree as well. I've always found Ultimatum to be the weakest of the original trilogy and essentially a retread of Supremacy albeit with phenomenal action. Jason Bourne does have some interesting elements that are a little different from the first three, so I'd rate it just a little higher than the third film but well below the first two benchmark trend setters.
  • edited August 2016 Posts: 444
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm beginning to agree as well. I've always found Ultimatum to be the weakest of the original trilogy and essentially a retread of Supremacy albeit with phenomenal action. Jason Bourne does have some interesting elements that are a little different from the first three, so I'd rate it just a little higher than the third film but well below the first two benchmark trend setters.

    I loved Identity for the almost European arthouse action spy thriller feel and wanted Bond to go in that direction but Supremacy (whilst perhaps now suffering a little as the middle part of a trilogy) just blew me away at the time. It was that film which made me appreciate the Bourne franchise as something really special and evolved the spy film genre.

    I therefore had no problems with the Craig Bond films going in that direction as they absolutely needed to in order to stay relevant. I was pleased with CR but partly wished it had the tauter pacing of Supremacy. I guess with QOS we eventually got that even if it was as much by accident as well as design.

    As you say the current film benefits from being less of a retread of its predecessor like Ultimatum was. It's no mean feat for Damon and Greengrass to come back after all this time and successfully evoke the feel of Supremacy and Ultimatum but whilst telling us a different story on this occasion.

    I like how in the narrative of the film the powers that be toy with the idea of Bourne working for them again - and how we're teased with this possibility right at the end - which plays along with the audience's knowledge of how the studio are considering to extend the franchise.

    Bourne has proved you can return to past glories let's hope Bond 25 can do too.
  • Posts: 2,462
    I liked the film. Almost non-stop adrenaline rush and two of the most impressive and longest action set pieces I've seen at the cinema. After those ridiculous articles about Damon being paid $1 million per word of spoken dialogue, I actually began counting his words and he runs through the first 25 words in about one scene with Nicky, so that claim was bollocks.
    It was 25 sentences not words.
  • Posts: 363
    Went and seen this opening night. I enjoyed it a lot, although I still don't understand why the movie is called JASON BOURNE.

    I actually would rank Ultimatum the best of the original trilogy. I disliked the fourth one a lot so this was a fresh breath of air. It's been a long time since watching the first three so I'm going to re-watch them shortly and do a new ranking afterwards.
  • dominicgreenedominicgreene The Eternal QOS Defender
    edited August 2016 Posts: 1,756
    I enjoyed the film but it was very much an unnecessary sequel. Also the way the exposition was explained was just awful. I'd say the whole movies dialogue was awful. Not subtle at all. Especially during Nicki and Bourne's meet in the Greek riot. Poor forced flashbacks that were relevant 10 years ago... useless social media plot... bored and out of place Tommy Lee Jones. But I really liked how Vikander wasn't a sex object or any point of romance in this movie. She's a character that's treated normally.
  • RonBond007RonBond007 Norfolk, Virginia
    Posts: 6
    Didn't have a Bond movie to watch for my birthday and was deployed for Spectre. New Bourne movie had to do.. :) 0c4a8eae0d.jpg
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 33,981
    @RonBond007, Happy (belated) Birthday and welcome to the forums!
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy N.Ireland
    Posts: 12,012
    Welcome @RonBond007 and another belated Happy Birthday <:-P
    Jason looks very pleased to see you, or is that just a big gun ? ;)
  • RonBond007RonBond007 Norfolk, Virginia
    Posts: 6
    Thanks Creasy & TP! :) My wife made my 40/41st birthday a good one; 5 missions all Bond themed. Dressed up and took the Aston out. I've been lurking for a few months as a guest, perusing the forums. Great site!
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  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy N.Ireland
    Posts: 12,012
    You are obviously a very lucky man @RonBond007 =D>
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 It was this or the priesthood.
    Posts: 28,231
    @RonBond007, anyone that wears a tux to a movie theater is awesome in my book. B-)
  • Posts: 2,462
    That sounds like an amazing birthday!
  • StirredNotShakenStirredNotShaken I'm gonna use this to clarify that Dalton is tied with Craig
    Posts: 1,656
    Wow. Holy crap was that terrible.

    Legacy looks like Casino Royale in comparison to this absolute garbage bag of a film. I was really excited for this when I saw it announced, even though it disappointed me that they were undermining the bookends of Ultimatum. How wrong of me.

    Don't watch this movie.

    1/10
  • MI could outlast Cruise, imo. It's very much a vehicle for him but at the same time there's also the team dynamic there. Cruise could transition into an M type figure as he gets older and as long as they found a charismatic bankable enough replacement they'd do alright.

    Bourne is more difficult because the brand is synomynous with that character. They'd have to recast imo (and more importantly, transition into new storiee not just Bourne taking on the CIA again, I've been saying for ages that they should make him a Reacher esque figure). But I'm of the opinion that if you can recast Bond after Sean Connery you can recast anyone. They just need to do an OHMSS and really fire on all cylinders to make the audience forget about Damon. Look at Mad Max 4 for another example, there were no negative comparisons with Mel Gibson or the old ones because the film was so fantastic. And Bourne is more similar to Max than Bond in the sense that the character isn't necessarily the main draw, it's what happens to him: he's more of a mysterious enigmatic type rather than a full on charismatic unforgettable presence like Bond.
  • Posts: 3,881
    Well Bond has managed to recast with success, but that doesn't make it easy for Bourne or MI. Mad Max had the benefit of being decades after the last one.

    Just goes to show what an achievement it was by Roger to reinvent the character to allow the series to move on after Sean.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,432
    vzok wrote: »
    Just goes to show what an achievement it was by Roger to reinvent the character to allow the series to move on after Sean.

    It's the greatest achievement in the series.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Matt Damon said he doesn't mind being recast and that's what's going to happen eventually for Bourne. And he said he's fine with it. If a recasting worked for a franchise, it will work for every other franchise.

    http://screenrant.com/jason-bourne-matt-damon-recasting/
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 33,981
    Hopefully if they recast, they go with someone who is more capable of being a leading man than Renner.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,432
    Matt Damon said he doesn't mind being recast and that's what's going to happen eventually for Bourne. And he said he's fine with it. If a recasting worked for a franchise, it will work for every other franchise.

    That's patently untrue.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Well, Renner wasn't playing Bourne. ;)

    I still liked him a lot as Aaron Cross.
  • Posts: 3,881
    Well, Renner wasn't playing Bourne. ;)

    I still liked him a lot as Aaron Cross.

    I enjoyed that one too, but it was a financial disappointment at the box office.
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