Where would you rank SPECTRE? (no spoilers)

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Oh screw it. I was going to wait to get a deal on the SP blu. I've realized I have to watch it again to see if I'm being unfairly harsh, so I'm heading out to purchase a copy at the inflated list price. Will let you know if I can get anything more out of it later.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    bondjames wrote: »
    Oh screw it. I was going to wait to get a deal on the SP blu. I've realized I have to watch it again to see if I'm being unfairly harsh, so I'm heading out to purchase a copy at the inflated list price. Will let you know if I can get anything more out of it later.

    I imagine this is tantamount to getting a hooker. Could go one of two ways. Just don't kill her and leave her in a shallow grave.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    RC7 wrote: »
    Having just dipped into the thread about SP being more or less appreciated over time it struck me that people (and I include myself in this) are guilty of ripping into SP very harshly as if its the worst Bond film ever made (some people even laughably saying its on a par with DAD!) without stopping to consider if they turn a critical scalpel of similar sharpness on older Bond films.

    Being entirely objective rather than viewing things through nostalgia tinted glasses, are your criticisms of SP exclusive to this film or do other Bond films suffer from same problems yet seemingly get more of a free pass due to the nostalgia factor? Furthermore theres a lot of positive stuff in SP (decent PTS, excellent (apart from some mediocre action) first two acts until they arrive at the crater, Craig on very good form, excellent cinematography) which tends to get lost in the criticism of the stuff thats not so good, yet it is leagues above some of the older entries.

    My own take is that yes SP is badly flawed but does that stop it being a really good entry in the series? Not really.

    The decision to have Blofeld have some personal 'step brother' connection with Bond is the worst call since greenlighting the invisible car IMO. But it has such an extremely minor impact on proceedings (another indication of the shocking writing. If this is going to be the twist then is should be a major thing but Bond just ignores it and it has zero impact on him, despite Hannes Oberhauser being so important to him that he actively hunts down the guy who killed him in the short story OP) it is no more irritating to me than the pigeon double take, the tarzan yell or the slide whistle. Stupid? Yes. Totally ruining the film? Nah.

    Ditto the retconning - hamfisted, sloppy and ill judged but a deal breaker that turns the film into a total clunker? Not really.

    Same to be said for the score - its bad to be sure but doesnt make the film a total disaster. A good score can only save a film up to a point. Barry's scores for DAF, TMWTGG, MR and AVTAK elevate whats on screen certainly but dont save those films from being not that great.

    And apart from slightly disappointing big action set pieces (car chase, plane crash, finale on the Thames) those are my only big issues with the film.

    I think theres a sense that because a film is new we pick it apart a lot more than some of the older ones without really objectively considering that some of said films really are a lot more shoddily put together than most of SP.

    Off the top of my head without really going into it (theres the separate SP v other films thread for that) I would say the following:

    Blatantly Worse Than SP
    DAF
    LALD
    TMWTGG
    MR
    AVTAK
    TND
    TWINE
    DAD

    Arguably Worse/Better Than SP
    TB (most will disagree but TB is a drudge to watch for me whenever Fiona is not on screen)
    YOLT
    TSWLM
    FYEO
    LTK
    OP
    GE
    QOS
    SF

    Blatantly Better Than SP
    DN
    FRWL
    GF
    OHMSS
    TLD
    CR

    I'm trying to be impartial here (TB bias excepted) and while some of you might be tempted to jump down my throat and say that the likes of TSWLM and GE should be filed under Blatantly Better Than SP the fact is that the Rog and Brozza eras are filled with camp and thinly drawn characters. Yes their basic stories are probably more coherent but the cartoon aspect of characters like Jaws and Xenia is more blatant than it is with Hinx and Blofeld. Anyway I'm not actually saying they are definitely better or worse just that a case can be argued either way.

    Personally out of the arguables I would probably have TSWLM, GE and QOS on a par with SP; OP and SF marginally better and YOLT, FYEO and LTK marginally worse. But these opinions arent fixed in stone and until I break it down element by element in the other thread I cant be sure where exactly it sits in my own rankings but I would guess somewhere around the middle which is probably what it deserves.

    Bang on. It's no masterpiece, but the criticism is disproportionately harsh. When film historians look back it will neatly correlate with an era in which people were just irrationally angry about anything and everything simply because social media gave them a platform.

    Bang on yourself Sir!

    I mean can you imagine the shitstorm that would've occurred had the likes of this forum and Twitter been around during the days of the Kung Fu schoolgirls and double take pigeon?

    SP has the misfortune that it was released in an era where all someone needs to have their moronic opinion foisted on the world is a phone and wifi.

    And these days everything is sbsolute. It's either genius or utter dogshit - there's no inbetween.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    RC7 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Oh screw it. I was going to wait to get a deal on the SP blu. I've realized I have to watch it again to see if I'm being unfairly harsh, so I'm heading out to purchase a copy at the inflated list price. Will let you know if I can get anything more out of it later.

    I imagine this is tantamount to getting a hooker. Could go one of two ways. Just don't kill her and leave her in a shallow grave.
    I promise to be gentle, despite the inflated prices in both cases.
  • Posts: 3,160
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  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    bondjames wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Oh screw it. I was going to wait to get a deal on the SP blu. I've realized I have to watch it again to see if I'm being unfairly harsh, so I'm heading out to purchase a copy at the inflated list price. Will let you know if I can get anything more out of it later.

    I imagine this is tantamount to getting a hooker. Could go one of two ways. Just don't kill her and leave her in a shallow grave.
    I promise to be gentle, despite the inflated prices in both cases.

    I still haven't gotten a copy; not on purpose, mind you. Life's been crazy recently with exams and papers and within two weeks I'll be heading off to Ireland for a Study Abroad opportunity at my campus, so time is rather thinly spread. Hopefully between now and then I'll be able to get in one watch of SP. Fingers crossed.
  • You know, I've noticed something interesting happening: for some reason, it seems that many who loved SF now dislike SP, and those that hated SF love SP. I've read many people talk about their adoration for SP after being disappointed three years ago by SF, and vice versa. Really, the criticism SP is getting now from one section of our membership isn't any different from the band that stood against SF after it released. The only thing a bit strange is that those who criticized SF now find themselves on the other side of the firing line as they rally to show their love for SP. A peculiar yet fascinating switching of the teams has happened, and not in any way like I've seen before. Weird, eh, or is it just me?

    In many ways I view SF and SP as one movie, or at least a continuation of the same core ideas and journey, so not liking one at all but adoring the other is hard for me to wrap my head around. Thoughts on this?

    A very good observation. A rivalry by proxy has been established between the fans of SF on the one hand, and SP on the other. Rare, it seems, is the Bond fan who ranks both in his Top 10.

  • edited February 2016 Posts: 2,483
    bondjames wrote: »
    You're exactly correct @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7. I noted that a while back.

    The same can be said of CR/QoS (one film but different tones).

    I've also noticed (and my head will be chewed off here) that many Brosnan era fans are huge fans of SP. More so than SF.

    I have not noticed this phenomena vis-a-vis CR and QoS for the simple reason that CR is so obviously superior to QoS that hardly anyone is bold enough to claim the opposite. It would tantamount to claiming DAD is better than GE.

  • bondjames wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    I've seen it described several times as being as bad, if not worse than DAD. I can enjoy DAD for what it's worth, but that's just reactionary bullshit and disproportionately harsh.
    I have not seen that but if that's the case, then yes, I don't agree. If they said it was more boring and they had more fun with DAD, I would personally agree and understand. However, SP is a far better film on many levels than DAD.

    Agreed. I don't recall seeing anybody--other than Birdleson--claim DAD is superior to SP. But I wish they would because it would be high comedy.

  • edited February 2016 Posts: 2,483
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    You're exactly correct @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7. I noted that a while back.

    The same can be said of CR/QoS (one film but different tones).

    I've also noticed (and my head will be chewed off here) that many Brosnan era fans are huge fans of SP. More so than SF.

    I agree, but I think less so. CR was so heavily loved and when QoS came, I think a massive majority of us didn't like it. For many (like myself) it took a long time to warm to it, and again, because CR was so brilliant, anything less really stuck out in a bad way. It wasn't a surprise like it is now to see SF fans turn to SP dissenters, and vice versa.

    With the SF v. SP debate, the love for SF might be equal or arguably greater than CR (I personally don't think so), but the criticism of SP hasn't been to the level that QoS got and frankly, still gets.

    That's why I classify the CR/QoS and SF/SP reactions differently.
    I wasn't here for the QoS reaction, but from what I read online at the time, I think the current SP & at the time QoS opinions are similar (although most who dislike QoS still seem to rank it far lower than SP).

    Why does SF resonate for some and SP not work, and vice versa? That is a curious thing. I really don't know.

    I can only speak for myself, and I am an SF fan. I found SP by the numbers and lacking in passion. I didn't feel that way about SF, and that's why I liked it.

    For me, the plot contrivances and the brother and all the rest could have been forgiven, but I need charisma in my Bond films. Spark. Life. Energy. I just didn't get that from the new film, but got that in spades from the prior entry. It's almost like the colours and the score (I found both drab in the new film) mirrored what was on screen. I'm not sure if that's just a perception or if that's in fact that case.

    I think these are fair points, but these criticisms didn't occur to me until I saw SP for the fourth time (and the first time at home). I thus have to wonder if my tepid response owed to the film's inherent lack of charisma, or to burnout. My next viewing--probably more than a year hence--will answer that question.

  • RC7RC7
    edited February 2016 Posts: 10,512
    I don't see this supposed lack of charisma. I must've watched a different movie.
  • No, I think this is a good but not great film, with some really good stuff at the beginning that sinks into too many coincidences, a way-too-easy escape and an ending out of a lethal weapon film.
  • RC7 wrote: »
    I don't see this supposed lack of charisma. I must've watched a different movie.

    Neither did I in the first three viewings. Or perhaps I did but was unable to conceptualize that feeling in written language.

  • The characters have charisma, it's the story that fades throughout.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,328
    Still number #2 for me. It's a flawed (What Bond film isn't?) but great Bond film.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    RC7 wrote: »
    I don't see this supposed lack of charisma. I must've watched a different movie.

    Neither did I in the first three viewings. Or perhaps I did but was unable to conceptualize that feeling in written language.

    I've seen it 10 times now and I find it brimming with energy. I think Craig's performance might have a lot to do with the varied opinion. He's nonchalant, but I buy his nonchalance, it's engaging to me. He's flippant with 'M', completely carefree, disregards the professional implications his actions have on his colleagues and it all builds to the pressure-cooker circumstances surrounding Swann and himself. If anything I think it is the film that translates what Fleming describes as accidie better than any other. I know others think he's bored. That's not what translates to me and I'm pretty sure it's not what he had in mind.
  • Posts: 1,497
    Furthermore theres a lot of positive stuff in SP (decent PTS, excellent (apart from some mediocre action) first two acts until they arrive at the crater, Craig on very good form, excellent cinematography) which tends to get lost in the criticism of the stuff thats not so good, yet it is leagues above some of the older entries.

    My own take is that yes SP is badly flawed but does that stop it being a really good entry in the series? Not really.

    The decision to have Blofeld have some personal 'step brother' connection with Bond is the worst call since greenlighting the invisible car IMO. But it has such an extremely minor impact on proceedings (another indication of the shocking writing. If this is going to be the twist then is should be a major thing but Bond just ignores it and it has zero impact on him, despite Hannes Oberhauser being so important to him that he actively hunts down the guy who killed him in the short story OP) it is no more irritating to me than the pigeon double take, the tarzan yell or the slide whistle. Stupid? Yes. Totally ruining the film? Nah.

    I've been fairly critical of SP, but I have to say that's a pretty accurate assessment and one I agree with for the most part. I would argue the cinematography in SP is very state of the art and accomplished, though I do feel it's a notch or two below Roger Deakins' excellent work in SF, though that's to be expected as he's one of the best in the biz.

    Where SP sinks though IS in both the 'step brother' angle and the retconning of the plot. It really deflates the film for me. The reason being is that the set-up was so enticing, from the moment the title was revealed at the EON press conference, to the announcement of Waltz (who you knew who he was going to be), to that first proper trailer with Waltz in nehru-suited silhouette and the return of haggard Mr. White!...as a Bond fan I was expecting a huge pay-off for all the build-up. So yes, perhaps this is a bit unfair as a judgment on film, as it's more of a let-down of high expectations. Yes the films stacks up well to Bond films of past when you do a box-checking comparison, but the whole crux of perspective for me was that Spectre was going to go above and beyond what came before. The Brosnan era ticked off the boxes and that's all well and fine, but the Craig era promised so much more from the very first black and white scene of CR. The promise continued with SF, as that film was able to parlay the serious tone of the first 2 films with a more traditional approach to Bond. SP just failed to deliver on that promise. So yes, if we go down the list: suspenseful PTS, check, generally well staged action sequences, check, mystery plot set-up, check, menacing henchman, check, etc, etc, SP is not that bad. Certainly not anywhere near DAD - that is just laughable and is akin to comparing SW The Force Awakens to The Phantom Menace. So yes, I think SP might eventually serve well as a breezy Sunday afternoon Bond film that you casually view while sipping a bloody mary.



  • The step brother angle. Eeesh. It just reeks of the stuff on the third Austin Powers film that made fun of Bond to begin with.

    It's just too much of a coincidence for me.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited February 2016 Posts: 9,117
    JBFan626 wrote: »
    Furthermore theres a lot of positive stuff in SP (decent PTS, excellent (apart from some mediocre action) first two acts until they arrive at the crater, Craig on very good form, excellent cinematography) which tends to get lost in the criticism of the stuff thats not so good, yet it is leagues above some of the older entries.

    My own take is that yes SP is badly flawed but does that stop it being a really good entry in the series? Not really.

    The decision to have Blofeld have some personal 'step brother' connection with Bond is the worst call since greenlighting the invisible car IMO. But it has such an extremely minor impact on proceedings (another indication of the shocking writing. If this is going to be the twist then is should be a major thing but Bond just ignores it and it has zero impact on him, despite Hannes Oberhauser being so important to him that he actively hunts down the guy who killed him in the short story OP) it is no more irritating to me than the pigeon double take, the tarzan yell or the slide whistle. Stupid? Yes. Totally ruining the film? Nah.

    I've been fairly critical of SP, but I have to say that's a pretty accurate assessment and one I agree with for the most part. I would argue the cinematography in SP is very state of the art and accomplished, though I do feel it's a notch or two below Roger Deakins' excellent work in SF, though that's to be expected as he's one of the best in the biz.

    Where SP sinks though IS in both the 'step brother' angle and the retconning of the plot. It really deflates the film for me. The reason being is that the set-up was so enticing, from the moment the title was revealed at the EON press conference, to the announcement of Waltz (who you knew who he was going to be), to that first proper trailer with Waltz in nehru-suited silhouette and the return of haggard Mr. White!...as a Bond fan I was expecting a huge pay-off for all the build-up. So yes, perhaps this is a bit unfair as a judgment on film, as it's more of a let-down of high expectations. Yes the films stacks up well to Bond films of past when you do a box-checking comparison, but the whole crux of perspective for me was that Spectre was going to go above and beyond what came before. The Brosnan era ticked off the boxes and that's all well and fine, but the Craig era promised so much more from the very first black and white scene of CR. The promise continued with SF, as that film was able to parlay the serious tone of the first 2 films with a more traditional approach to Bond. SP just failed to deliver on that promise. So yes, if we go down the list: suspenseful PTS, check, generally well staged action sequences, check, mystery plot set-up, check, menacing henchman, check, etc, etc, SP is not that bad. Certainly not anywhere near DAD - that is just laughable and is akin to comparing SW The Force Awakens to The Phantom Menace. So yes, I think SP might eventually serve well as a breezy Sunday afternoon Bond film that you casually view while sipping a bloody mary.



    I think you nail it there.

    They tell us this is going to top SF, they give us this dark and brooding trailer and they even put the OHMSS music over it to try and convince us that this is going to be the Bond to end all Bonds.

    And then it just turns out to be a decent middle of the pack entry and instead of a stunning climax to the Craig era the whole thing unravels in the final act.

    Mind you how many times have they promised in the marketing campaign the biggest Bond of all only not to deliver on the promise?
  • I agree, though I think it just sinks to very pedestrian Bond levels, not an outright disaster.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    Murdock wrote: »
    Still number #2 for me. It's a flawed (What Bond film isn't?) but great Bond film.
    It was #4 for me 4 times watching it, then last night I watched QOS, and I was just blown away by the raw energy and music (things I think now that SP could have done a little bit better) so I bounced it down to #8 & raised QOS up to #4... I suspect that it will be ping-ponging within my top ten forever. I love the lush extravagance of the film (similar to SF's) and I've come to love the new Q. Truthfully, the smart blood thing is the invisible car to ME in the film, but again, such a small thing really.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    Murdock wrote: »
    Still number #2 for me. It's a flawed (What Bond film isn't?) but great Bond film.
    It was #4 for me 4 times watching it, then last night I watched QOS, and I was just blown away by the raw energy and music (things I think now that SP could have done a little bit better) so I bounced it down to #8 & raised QOS up to #4... I suspect that it will be ping-ponging within my top ten forever. I love the lush extravagance of the film (similar to SF's) and I've come to love the new Q. Truthfully, the smart blood thing is the invisible car to ME in the film, but again, such a small thing really.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Still number #2 for me. It's a flawed (What Bond film isn't?) but great Bond film.
    It was #4 for me 4 times watching it, then last night I watched QOS, and I was just blown away by the raw energy and music (things I think now that SP could have done a little bit better) so I bounced it down to #8 & raised QOS up to #4... I suspect that it will be ping-ponging within my top ten forever. I love the lush extravagance of the film (similar to SF's) and I've come to love the new Q. Truthfully, the smart blood thing is the invisible car to ME in the film, but again, such a small thing really.

    The smart blood is shit to be sure - utterly superfluous to the plot and already done in CR - but it's a long way from being as embarrassing as the invisible car.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    The smart blood is shit to be sure - utterly superfluous to the plot and already done in CR - but it's a long way from being as embarrassing as the invisible car.
    Y'know, given the total comic-book-ness of DAD, the invisible car is merely a 'whatever, dude' just like the smart blood is in a somewhat more serious film like SP.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 7,890
    This has been discussed before and is more suited for a different topic but a couple of things mentioned above point out one of the problems of Bond in the 21st Century; "smart blood" and "invisible cars" are now within reach if not even now possible. When presented in a Bond film they are seen as cartoonish. On the other end of the spectrum, Bond wearing an earpiece is criticized for being out of touch.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    RC7 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    I don't see this supposed lack of charisma. I must've watched a different movie.

    Neither did I in the first three viewings. Or perhaps I did but was unable to conceptualize that feeling in written language.

    I've seen it 10 times now and I find it brimming with energy. I think Craig's performance might have a lot to do with the varied opinion. He's nonchalant, but I buy his nonchalance, it's engaging to me. He's flippant with 'M', completely carefree, disregards the professional implications his actions have on his colleagues and it all builds to the pressure-cooker circumstances surrounding Swann and himself. If anything I think it is the film that translates what Fleming describes as accidie better than any other. I know others think he's bored. That's not what translates to me and I'm pretty sure it's not what he had in mind.

    I'm with you on this. I find Dan phenomenal in SP; no real surprise. He's gotten to the point where he's so Bondian to me, I never once think I'm watching a movie.

    I actually think that Dan is so relaxed and confident in the role at this point that he can come off to some as uninterested or even bored. Crazy, that.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Just rewatched SP. I'd rank it about 17, just below GF and above TND
  • SP is fine, and quite a lot of fun, but there is a significant problem with the film.

    The film did not reference every other film in the franchise. For crying out loud, it was made up of every other film in the franchise. Some things, like falling on a couch in the PTS, are just references (here to YOLT). Most other things are just 21st century revisions of previous sequences. The train fight is SP's chunk from FRWL. The Austrian clinic, conceived in an all-too-similar vein to Piz Gloria, is the chunk from OHMSS. The admittedly great helicopter opening is the FYEO chunk, the lame boat chase was the watered-down TWINE chunk and really, that sequence where M calls C careless is ripped from Craig's debut! The film is literally composed of sequences that are straight from previous films, crossing the line of 'paying homage to'. It has no identity of its own, it was just a James Bond scrapbook.

    The film had way too many writers, and it really shows. It is the longest Bond film, but even so, it fails to get everything done in its running time because it has too many ideas and ambitions. The film tries to introduce Spectre, it tries to introduce Blofeld, it tries to establish an unnecessary link between Blofeld and Bond, it tries to establish a link between Spectre and Quantum, it tries to retcon the four Craig films so they are connected, it tries to look even deeper into the Bond character (as if we haven't already!), it tries to have a topical focus on surveillance, it tries to give the whole MI6 team a moment in the limelight, it tries to establish a love story between Bond and Madeline, and of course it tries to be fun whilst precariously balancing it with the overall serious and emotional tone of the Craig films, as well as balancing the newness of the Craig era with the general tropes of the past. And to top it all off, the film tries to cover it all thematically with the usual Mendes pretentious motif (the dead are alive), whilst haphazardly throwing money here, there and everywhere except for the place it is most needed - the notably lazy finale.

    And as a result, the film really just bursts under the weight of its ambition. Blofeld is wasted, Hinx is wasted, Madeline is wasted, Lucia Sciarra is wasted, C is wasted. Therefore, the film is, in some ways, a waste.

    Not as much of a waste as QOS, I'd argue. Spectre is a good film, because you can feel the effort the filmmakers put into it. It just wasn't made cohesively enough to truly succeed.

    As far as rankings in the Craig era, this is how I'd do it:
    3. Casino Royale
    13. Spectre
    14. Skyfall
    21. Quantum of Solace
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    bondjames wrote: »
    Just rewatched SP. I'd rank it about 17, just below GF and above TND

    Funny, that's exactly where I have it now, except it's QoS that's no. 18, not TND.

    I still think it's a decent film, and certainly a popular one given its box office attractions. It's just that the film is basically thinly-veiled chunks of other Bond films (with minor alterations at best) slotted together in a way that resulted in a mediocre entry where there's just nothing strong enough for it to break a top 10 on my list.

    However, I'm not as critical of Craig as some of the other users here. I thought he was good in the role.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2016 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    Just rewatched SP. I'd rank it about 17, just below GF and above TND

    Funny, that's exactly where I have it now, except it's QoS that's no. 18, not TND.

    I still think it's a decent film, and certainly a popular one given its box office attractions. It's just that the film is basically thinly-veiled chunks of other Bond films (with minor alterations at best) slotted together in a way that resulted in a mediocre entry where there's just nothing strong enough for it to break a top 10 on my list.

    However, I'm not as critical of Craig as some of the other users here. I thought he was good in the role.
    I agree. Having viewed it yesterday, and pondered a little about it since, I think the primary word I will use to describe it is 'clinical'. It's a 'clinical film' to me. There is no warmth. No heart or soul. So it appears antiseptic and even aloof to me.

    That may have been intentional, given the Spectral nature of the title and theme (Dead, gouging eyes, cat and mouse etc.) and if so, that's fine. It obviously works for some and even many, and the production qualities are absolutely first class. Impeccable in fact, if not for the colours.
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