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The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

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  • DaltonforyouDaltonforyou The Daltonator
    Posts: 308
    Agreed, the moore gadgets were getting to specific,its like they literally had a gadget for any situation possible.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,333
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    My point was that the jetpack worked- and the croc sub was outright silly.
    It's called camouflage. How else would Bond get to Octopussy's island without being seen? It's like the duck cap from Goldfinger.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    My point was that the jetpack worked- and the croc sub was outright silly.

    The jetpack was totally inane. While it got more frequent in the Moore years, this was and still is about as ridiculous as it gets.
  • SaintMarkSaintMark
    Posts: 7,653
    Not lazy but inventive instead of brutal and/or grim.

    I disagree with the thesis.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Maybe the idea of a sub camouflaged as a crocodile isn't so bad. But the one shot of how it's revealed (the mouth opens up and Rog is seen inside) makes it daft.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    My point was that the jetpack worked- and the croc sub was outright silly.

    So if someone built a working croc sub you'd be fine with it would you?

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    My point was that the jetpack worked- and the croc sub was outright silly.
    So if someone built a working croc sub you'd be fine with it would you?

    http://www.fugusub.com/
    Just put a croc head on it.
  • doubleohdaddoubleohdad
    Posts: 1,146
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    My point was that the jetpack worked- and the croc sub was outright silly.

    So if someone built a working croc sub you'd be fine with it would you?

    If it was in a good movie, yeah. The Jet pack, whether anyone likes it or not, was in one of the better Bond films. The thesis is basically stating that the Moore movies were dragged down by gadgets, comedy and poor screenwriting.

    I will say that the Lotus was a cool prop, perhaps the best Bond gadget in the Moore films.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    My point was that the jetpack worked- and the croc sub was outright silly.

    So if someone built a working croc sub you'd be fine with it would you?
    The thesis is basically stating that the Moore movies were dragged down by gadgets, comedy and poor screenwriting.

    No it doesn't.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,578
    @doubleohdad, not true. I never mentioned comedy. In fact, I'm one of the few who protest against the "Moore was the funny Bond" misconception.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    My point was that the jetpack worked- and the croc sub was outright silly.

    So if someone built a working croc sub you'd be fine with it would you?

    If it was in a good movie, yeah. The Jet pack, whether anyone likes it or not, was in one of the better Bond films. The thesis is basically stating that the Moore movies were dragged down by gadgets

    So put a working croc sub in OHMSS or FRWL and you think its great despite saying its 'outright silly' in your previous post...? Any chance of you holding together a coherent argument?

    You are correct of course to say that the thesis states that the Moore films were dragged down by gadgets. The fact that Connery and Brosnan films also suffered from this is inadmissible when it comes to discussing this particular thesis.

    Therefore I would probably agree that the Moore films suffered from sloppy writing when it comes to gadgets digging Bond out of tricky situations - however the implication is that this is only a problem exclusive to the Moore films. In the interests if balance I'd like to see the next thesis state 'The lazy writing re gadgets started in the Connery era.'

    I'd take umbrage that the jetpack features in one of the better films as I don't rate TB as any higher than mediocre, and that's when I'm feeling generous.
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    I think the gadgets in the Connery Bonds most of the time help serve the story, not undercut the character. that croc sub from the moore bond is a loooooong way from the awesome jetpack in TB.

    The jetpack is simply a convenient deux ex machina thrown in by someone at EON who heard about this gadget that actually worked and thought it would be cool. It does not help the story one iota any more than pulling out a length of rope would. And as for 'undercutting the character' - have you ever read Fleming?

    Don't get confused by the fact that because the jetpack worked it automatically makes it brilliant. The rebreather is a far better Bond gadget than the jetpack despite the fact it never actually worked. That snooper thing in AVTAK looks like it actually works - doesn't stop it from being shit does it?

    Yes the croc sub is silly but no more so than Bond strapping on the jetpack.
  • doubleohdaddoubleohdad
    Posts: 1,146
    Ultimately, it comes down to the idea that most people think a jetpack is pretty cool and a submarine shaped like a crocodile is laughable.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    Ultimately, it comes down to the idea that most people think a jetpack is pretty cool and a submarine shaped like a crocodile is laughable.

    Oh, @TheWiz is gonna have a field day with that post.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,333
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    Ultimately, it comes down to the idea that most people think a jetpack is pretty cool and a submarine shaped like a crocodile is laughable.

    Speak for yourself. I'd love to have a croc-o-sub. I'd use it to scare people. :))

    Whenever I see it, I'm reminded of this.
  • doubleohdaddoubleohdad
    Posts: 1,146
    (shrug)

    Most people would want to put on a jetpack and fly around.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    (shrug)
    Most people would want to put on a jetpack and fly around.
    Probably true. And that relates to the discussion at hand how...?
  • 007RogerMoore007RogerMoore
    Posts: 1,082
    I'm not sure it was necessarily just the gadgets, even through they might have something to do with it. It think that people were more receptive to implausible plots at the time of for instance MR. Plots like that wouldn't be accepted in the same way today. Nowadays it seems like many Will dismiss a movie unless it is realistic, gritty and has plot twists, forcing screenwriters to up their game. In the old days I think making plots for action movies was easier and because of that, screenwriters were lazier.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 14,844
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    Ultimately, it comes down to the idea that most people think a jetpack is pretty cool and a submarine shaped like a crocodile is laughable.

    I love both TB and OP. I find TB the superior movie and one of the most underrated Bond movies on these forums, for many reasons. But the jetpack is not one of them. The crocodile sub is actually not laughable: the island's water is swarmed with crocs, by using a crocodile sub Bond remains safe and avoids detection. And I find it very plausible that Q branch designs on short notice a particular gadget for particular situations, if they know it is going to be needed. I find the crocodile sub far more believable that a submarine car.
  • KerimKerim Istanbul Not Constantinople
    Posts: 2,629
    If the writers were lazy during the Moore Era, it wasn't because of the gadgets. Whether good or bad, it still took a creative writer to come up with the gadgets and to demonstrate their uses.
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    Yes, you'd have to think gadgets up. Yet often they just appear for an action scene and disappear again when the action's over. With the tailored gadgets, scuba-Lotus, avalanche-dome, jetpack, that's kind of the point. But with some weapons like the dart-bracelet or survival equipment like the mini-scuba sticks it's a mystery why they don't show up at other occasions where they'd be useful and handy. It's not really just the Moore films that were sloppy about escaping situations by use of a gadget just for that purpose. By Moore's time it just had become more obvious.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,578
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 315</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Spectre comes off as most menacing in FRWL.</b></font>
  • SoundofthesinnersSoundofthesinners
    Posts: 3,236
    Disagree. They're probably at their most realistic there, but they're definitely more menacing in Thunderball, and arguably even in Dr. No and You Only Live Twice. They're so mysterious (and yet instantly memorable) in the former, and, even though the latter is a bit campy, their plan is still to blow up the world from a hollowed-out volcano lair, and it doesn't get more evil than that.
  • KerimKerim Istanbul Not Constantinople
    Posts: 2,629
    Agreed. The strength in numbers is a pretty intimidating factor. Throw in Klebb, Kronsteen, Nash and the training camp, and you have some pretty formidable foes.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    Soundofthesinners wrote: »
    Disagree. They're probably at their most realistic there, but they're definitely more menacing in Thunderball, and arguably even in Dr. No and You Only Live Twice. They're so mysterious (and yet instantly memorable) in the former, and, even though the latter is a bit campy, their plan is still to blow up the world from a hollowed-out volcano lair, and it doesn't get more evil than that.
    You wrote my answer for me.
    :)>-
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    Well, if we're going with Blofeld individually, yeah.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    edited November 2014 Posts: 7,314
    I think I would have to agree with this thesis. All of the villains in FRWL are extremely menacing and Blofeld never seemed as dangerous as he does here. Bond, on the other hand, is still somewhat vulnerable and hasn't yet become the Superman of later films. So you get the sense that SPECTRE might actually achieve their goal even if they aren't threatening to kill millions this time around. Grant comes this close to killing 007. SPECTRE is pretty intense in the first half of TB but I never truly get the feeling that they can defeat Bond.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    @pachazo- great points. :)>-
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Agreed, in the others they are almost a bit of a parody.

    The group of supervillains who meet up.

    I always liked that look of terror Klebb has on her face at the end of FRWL when she thinks she's about to be killed.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I agree as well. The scale of their plot was maybe not so, but the way they were portrayed.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 14,844
    Completely agree. SPECTRE was menacing in other movies too, but not nearly as much. In DN they are barely mentioned and Dr. No is the menace. Then in FRWL, you see what kind of organization hired him: ruthless, secretive, disciplined and manipulative. Bond has rarely been in such tight spot. In other movies where the organization appears, there is always something else than diminishes its aura of menace. I love TB, I find it underrated here, but the clumsy killer Largo sent to Bond's room already takes a bit away from the threat the whole organization represents. In FRWL, the intellectually brilliant Kronsteen, who came up with an almost perfect plan, is swiftly executed... because his plan was not perfect! And Blofeld then finds deplorable that the poison is a bit slow.

    In YOLT the plan is so ridiculously OTT that the menace goes with the plausibility. And Blofeld is now a petulant child. Bond is not so nearly as cornered as he was in FRWL. Oh and something else that FRWL has to keep SPECTRE threatening: many of those who get murdered by it we care about them.
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