Who Still Has a Difficult Time Getting Into Craig?

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  • edited October 22 Posts: 6,183
    Different actors. Dalton always seemed more theatrical and expressive as Bond to me, albeit in his own serious way. It’s why I think he’s gone on to some of the parts he’s done (ie. I think he’s great in Hot Fuzz in that outlandish, darkly comedic way. In many ways I think you can argue his Bond portrayals aren't amongst his best performances).

    Craig’s always struck me as more a screen actor (although I’ve heard he’s great on stage). You can tell what his Bond is thinking with a little change in expression or look, particularly in CR and SF.

    I think Craig has more natural charisma. Honestly, I’d say he’s the better actor of the two, but both are clearly respected figures. I think Craig also understood the element of irony that goes along with Bond. Dalton was never quite as comfortable cracking a joke or playing along with things.
  • Personally the reason I find Dalton to be more engaging as Bond as opposed to Craig is exactly because of how theatrical and expressive he is. It might be too much for others - which is totally understandable. But for me, Dalton’s full of energy in those two films he did - and particularly coming after some of the later Moore films it feels very welcoming. I can get why some people may find that he’s not “swaggering” enough or not “comfortable” enough but like GoldenGun mentioned above - it’s a performance riddled to the brim with nuances - and I don’t think any of the other Bond actors would’ve worked in those two films. I certainly don’t see Craig’s Bond - for as good as he is in his own ways - being able to keep up with Koskov’s schemes and outwitting him. Nor do I see Craig infiltrating a drug ring to destroy it from within. Of all the Bond actors - Dalton feels the most like a professional intelligence agent - and I think he is by far the smartest and most cunning of all the Bonds.
  • edited October 22 Posts: 6,183
    Slightly different Bonds too I suppose. I can very much imagine Craig's Bond in TLD, although I suspect he'd be less diplomatic with M about not killing Kara. I can imagine him going rogue rather than willingly being sent to assassinate Puskin. But I definitely get shades of him seducing Camille in CR with Kara (although whether Craig's Bond would fall for that version of Kara is debatable... then again I honestly find myself thinking that with Dalton's Bond anyway). I think he was able to work out what was going on around him in his films too so I don't think Koskov would be a big deal (I mean, a big part of the Craig Bond movies is he's pretty much one step ahead of MI6 the entire time)

    LTK I can also see Craig's Bond in, but with some differences. He'd be less likely to resign when confronted and just go on the revenge spree straight away/just claim he's on holiday to MI6. Story direction obviously dictates this all to some extent, and LTK has a very particular set up of Bond having to think on his feet which is great.

    Simply put: it'd be a slightly different film with a different Bond, and I think that's true of any Bond actor. Good idea for a thread though - how would a Bond film go if a different Bond were in it? Or perhaps @thedove a good what if for one of yours if it's not been done ;)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 22 Posts: 19,457
    007HallY wrote: »

    LTK I can also see Craig's Bond in, but with some differences. He'd be less likely to resign when confronted and just go on the revenge spree straight away/just claim he's on holiday to MI6. Story direction obviously dictates this all to some extent, and LTK has a very particular set up of Bond having to think on his feet which is great.

    I must admit, trying to imagine Craig in LTK does kind of highlight how I think LTK feels a bit off with regards to Bond's character for me: I just don't know if I fully buy him going fully rogue and running off from M for the sake of revenge. In a similar situation in QoS, Craig's Bond stays loyal and does his job, even though he's clearly feeling anger over Vesper's death. And maybe the former is closer to thoughts Fleming's Bond expressed, I can't really remember now, but the latter is much more interesting to me.

    In terms of nuanced performances though, it's Craig who I always find the most impressive. Not least he's playing a character who remains impassive most of the time because of his job, and yet somehow through microexpressions or something manages to communicate to the audience what Bond is thinking. I find that very impressive. And yes, more charismatic: he's more of a movie star.
  • edited October 22 Posts: 6,183
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »

    LTK I can also see Craig's Bond in, but with some differences. He'd be less likely to resign when confronted and just go on the revenge spree straight away/just claim he's on holiday to MI6. Story direction obviously dictates this all to some extent, and LTK has a very particular set up of Bond having to think on his feet which is great.

    I must admit, trying to imagine Craig in LTK does kind of highlight how I think LTK feels a bit off with regards to Bond's character for me: I just don't know if I fully buy him going fully rogue and running off from M for the sake of revenge. In a similar situation in QoS, Craig's Bond stays loyal and does his job, even though he's clearly feeling anger over Vesper's death. And maybe the former is closer to thoughts Fleming's Bond expressed, I can't really remember now, but the latter is much more interesting to me.

    In terms of nuanced performances though, it's Craig who I always find the most impressive. Not least he's playing a character who remains impassive most of the time because of his job, and yet somehow through microexpressions or something manages to communicate to the audience what Bond is thinking. I find that very impressive. And yes, more charismatic: he's more of a movie star.

    I mean, Bond goes on revenge tangents in Fleming. But they're in keeping with his job. The most he goes off piste from what I remember is in YOLT where he withholds knowing Blofeld is Dr. Shatterhand. It's still within the parameters of his job, but it's an opportunity for him.

    Craig's films I suppose reinterpreted the 'blunt instrument' of the books for their time. He's a headstrong man who does what's necessary to get the job done, often in the face of superiors who aren't on his level. It's not quite like a Bourne or Jack Bauer in the sense that it wasn't purely personal or needed purely out of necessity (even in in QOS, despite Bond's determination after Vesper's death, he has nothing to personally gain from continuing except to figure out what's going on out of duty. Bond in the novels goes through a similar 'wind' in tackling SMERSH after Vesper's death). I can agree that Dalton's Bond in LTK feels weirdly Un-Fleming esque in that way ironically, where Craig's Bond feels more like a valid reinterpretation of these ideas. I love LTK incidentally. But obviously all of this is subjective.

    And yes, I think Craig's charisma and ability to communicate so much with so little is impressive. Another reason I associate him with Connery in my mind as Bond (the latter didn't get quite as much opportunity in terms of Bond's character, but he had this ability to communicate what he was thinking with the slightest expression at his best, and he had that unconventional but distinct charisma. I feel most of the other Bond actors have been much more expressive in their performances, amazing as they've been).
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,989
    What sets Craig’s Bond apart from all the others is his energy. Connery was electric, but Craig had a nuclear reactor burning inside him. His Bond didn’t just speak his lines; he charged them with emotion and bravura. He didn’t merely fight an opponent; he pulverized them with Spartan ferocity. He didn’t just control his life; he lived it on frequencies of passion and independence few of us can even imagine. The first five minutes of CR say it all. Such a tornado of intensity can be difficult for some to adjust to, but I’ve loved every second of his time on screen.
  • Posts: 7,051
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    What sets Craig’s Bond apart from all the others is his energy. Connery was electric, but Craig had a nuclear reactor burning inside him. His Bond didn’t just speak his lines; he charged them with emotion and bravura. He didn’t merely fight an opponent; he pulverized them with Spartan ferocity. He didn’t just control his life; he lived it on frequencies of passion and independence few of us can even imagine. The first five minutes of CR say it all. Such a tornado of intensity can be difficult for some to adjust to, but I’ve loved every second of his time on screen.

    That is very well put, my friend. A tornado of intensity indeed. And I too loved that particular energy. Let's hope they keep it in some way or form, although, as you so aptly put it, it all depends on the actor, and Craig was full of it :)
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,989
    Univex wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    What sets Craig’s Bond apart from all the others is his energy. Connery was electric, but Craig had a nuclear reactor burning inside him. His Bond didn’t just speak his lines; he charged them with emotion and bravura. He didn’t merely fight an opponent; he pulverized them with Spartan ferocity. He didn’t just control his life; he lived it on frequencies of passion and independence few of us can even imagine. The first five minutes of CR say it all. Such a tornado of intensity can be difficult for some to adjust to, but I’ve loved every second of his time on screen.

    That is very well put, my friend. A tornado of intensity indeed. And I too loved that particular energy. Let's hope they keep it in some way or form, although, as you so aptly put it, it all depends on the actor, and Craig was full of it :)

    Thank you, @Univex. What I love about Craig's Bond is what I love about Bale's Batman: a fire burning inside them. The screen radiates when they are on.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 19,457
    007HallY wrote: »

    And yes, I think Craig's charisma and ability to communicate so much with so little is impressive. Another reason I associate him with Connery in my mind as Bond (the latter didn't get quite as much opportunity in terms of Bond's character, but he had this ability to communicate what he was thinking with the slightest expression at his best, and he had that unconventional but distinct charisma. I feel most of the other Bond actors have been much more expressive in their performances, amazing as they've been).

    Oh yeah, Connery was a master of not needing to do too much and communicating a mood, or quite often a gag, with little more than a flick of the eyes. I often think of that little gag in Entrapment (of all things!) where he's leading Catherine Zeta Jones in a training run around his castle and stops to bellow at her to pick the pace up, she runs past and he gives just the slightest flicker of a look of exhaustion before running after her- it's a really nice little gag because he plays it so subtly, he was great at that sort of thing. Or like his look of boredom at the idea of Q briefing him for a couple of hours on the Aston Martin, so beautifully underplayed.
    I love Roger completely, but subtlety was never his thing! :D
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited 4:22am Posts: 4,682
    Personally the reason I find Dalton to be more engaging as Bond as opposed to Craig is exactly because of how theatrical and expressive he is. It might be too much for others - which is totally understandable. But for me, Dalton’s full of energy in those two films he did - and particularly coming after some of the later Moore films it feels very welcoming. I can get why some people may find that he’s not “swaggering” enough or not “comfortable” enough but like GoldenGun mentioned above - it’s a performance riddled to the brim with nuances - and I don’t think any of the other Bond actors would’ve worked in those two films. I certainly don’t see Craig’s Bond - for as good as he is in his own ways - being able to keep up with Koskov’s schemes and outwitting him. Nor do I see Craig infiltrating a drug ring to destroy it from within. Of all the Bond actors - Dalton feels the most like a professional intelligence agent - and I think he is by far the smartest and most cunning of all the Bonds.

    To me, at times, Dalton's portrayal of inner turmoil came across like an actor trying really hard to portray inner turmoil. It seemed forced. That isn't to say I disliked Dalton in the role. I thought he was put in a very difficult position following Moore and trying to bring something new to the character. It's a shame he didn't get a third film. I think a case could be made that each actor's third film (GF. TSWLM, TWINE, SF) is his best.

  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    edited 7:32am Posts: 4,554
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    What sets Craig’s Bond apart from all the others is his energy. Connery was electric, but Craig had a nuclear reactor burning inside him. His Bond didn’t just speak his lines; he charged them with emotion and bravura. He didn’t merely fight an opponent; he pulverized them with Spartan ferocity. He didn’t just control his life; he lived it on frequencies of passion and independence few of us can even imagine. The first five minutes of CR say it all. Such a tornado of intensity can be difficult for some to adjust to, but I’ve loved every second of his time on screen.

    Well put. Much more succinctly than i could.

    I love watching Craig on screen in anything he's in. He has such a captivating screen presence.

    I feel sorry for those who disliked his Bond. Must have been a rough 15 years as a Bond fan.. :))
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,989
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    What sets Craig’s Bond apart from all the others is his energy. Connery was electric, but Craig had a nuclear reactor burning inside him. His Bond didn’t just speak his lines; he charged them with emotion and bravura. He didn’t merely fight an opponent; he pulverized them with Spartan ferocity. He didn’t just control his life; he lived it on frequencies of passion and independence few of us can even imagine. The first five minutes of CR say it all. Such a tornado of intensity can be difficult for some to adjust to, but I’ve loved every second of his time on screen.

    Well put. Much more succinctly than i could.

    I love watching Craig on screen in anything he's in. He has such a captivating screen presence.

    I feel sorry for those who disliked his Bond. Must have been a rough 15 years as a Bond fan.. :))

    I know some people who weren’t sold on Craig at first, but most of them changed their minds after SF. Still, must have been a hard decade-and-a-half, indeed.
  • Posts: 2,709
    TripAces wrote: »
    Personally the reason I find Dalton to be more engaging as Bond as opposed to Craig is exactly because of how theatrical and expressive he is. It might be too much for others - which is totally understandable. But for me, Dalton’s full of energy in those two films he did - and particularly coming after some of the later Moore films it feels very welcoming. I can get why some people may find that he’s not “swaggering” enough or not “comfortable” enough but like GoldenGun mentioned above - it’s a performance riddled to the brim with nuances - and I don’t think any of the other Bond actors would’ve worked in those two films. I certainly don’t see Craig’s Bond - for as good as he is in his own ways - being able to keep up with Koskov’s schemes and outwitting him. Nor do I see Craig infiltrating a drug ring to destroy it from within. Of all the Bond actors - Dalton feels the most like a professional intelligence agent - and I think he is by far the smartest and most cunning of all the Bonds.

    To me, at times, Dalton's portrayal of inner turmoil came across like an actor trying really hard to portray inner turmoil. It seemed forced. That isn't to say I disliked Dalton in the role. I thought he was put in a very difficult position following Moore and trying to bring something new to the character. It's a shame he didn't get a third film. I think a case could be made that each actor's third film (GF. TSWLM, TWINE, SF) is his best.

    Can’t say that I agree with you there. Theatrical? Yeah I’d say so but forced? Not to my eyes.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,554
    TripAces wrote: »
    Personally the reason I find Dalton to be more engaging as Bond as opposed to Craig is exactly because of how theatrical and expressive he is. It might be too much for others - which is totally understandable. But for me, Dalton’s full of energy in those two films he did - and particularly coming after some of the later Moore films it feels very welcoming. I can get why some people may find that he’s not “swaggering” enough or not “comfortable” enough but like GoldenGun mentioned above - it’s a performance riddled to the brim with nuances - and I don’t think any of the other Bond actors would’ve worked in those two films. I certainly don’t see Craig’s Bond - for as good as he is in his own ways - being able to keep up with Koskov’s schemes and outwitting him. Nor do I see Craig infiltrating a drug ring to destroy it from within. Of all the Bond actors - Dalton feels the most like a professional intelligence agent - and I think he is by far the smartest and most cunning of all the Bonds.

    To me, at times, Dalton's portrayal of inner turmoil came across like an actor trying really hard to portray inner turmoil. It seemed forced. That isn't to say I disliked Dalton in the role. I thought he was put in a very difficult position following Moore and trying to bring something new to the character. It's a shame he didn't get a third film. I think a case could be made that each actor's third film (GF. TSWLM, TWINE, SF) is his best.

    Can’t say that I agree with you there. Theatrical? Yeah I’d say so but forced? Not to my eyes.

    This is the one criticism i have with Dalton's performance in LTK. He's trying too hard and you can see the acting so i would agree with @TripAces

    I still think he was a great Bond and his performance in Daylights is one of the best in the series.
  • Posts: 6,183
    To be fair I like that they leaned into Dalton’s strengths with LTK. He’s much more convincing scowling and coldly holding Lupe at knife point rather than cracking a line during an action sequence or even showing subtle warmth. I think LTK works in that sense, and it’s a good performance despite the odd clunker of a line here or there.

    That said, I can understand why going forward MGM weren’t as keen on him continuing in the role. It’s hard to shake this feeling he may have been a bit limited in terms of what he could do as Bond despite his talent as an actor. I always find Brosnan’s performance in GE the more subtle, convincing one compared to Dalton’s in LTK, and find there’s actually a bit more going on there with Bond.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited 10:30am Posts: 19,457
    007HallY wrote: »
    To be fair I like that they leaned into Dalton’s strengths with LTK. He’s much more convincing scowling and coldly holding Lupe at knife point rather than cracking a line during an action sequence or even showing subtle warmth.

    That’s a good point, he is good in that scene.
    007HallY wrote: »
    That said, I can understand why going forward MGM weren’t as keen on him continuing in the role. It’s hard to shake this feeling he may have been a bit limited in terms of what he could do as Bond despite his talent as an actor. I always find Brosnan’s performance in GE the more subtle, convincing one compared to Dalton’s in LTK, and find there’s actually a bit more going on there with Bond.

    Yes, I think Brosnan also just knew what the audience wanted from Bond: it’s an acting performance but also an entertainment one. They want the vicarious pleasure of watching someone being just a little bit of a dick and getting away with it in a way we know we couldn’t in real life because no one is as cool as Bond: that’s part of the fun of him as a screen character. Dalton wanted to play the book character, which is admirable but just not quite what audiences expected after 14 movies of the Bond we knew. It might say ‘Ian Fleming’s James Bond 007’ at the top, but really it’s Ian Fleming, Cubby Broccoli and Harry Saltzman’s version of the character we’re watching.
    I love TLD, it’s maybe my favourite and I do enjoy how Dalton adds to the more serious tone of it, but I can’t help but think Brosnan would have been a bigger hit in it.
  • Posts: 6,183
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    To be fair I like that they leaned into Dalton’s strengths with LTK. He’s much more convincing scowling and coldly holding Lupe at knife point rather than cracking a line during an action sequence or even showing subtle warmth.

    That’s a good point, he is good in that scene.
    007HallY wrote: »
    That said, I can understand why going forward MGM weren’t as keen on him continuing in the role. It’s hard to shake this feeling he may have been a bit limited in terms of what he could do as Bond despite his talent as an actor. I always find Brosnan’s performance in GE the more subtle, convincing one compared to Dalton’s in LTK, and find there’s actually a bit more going on there with Bond.

    Yes, I think Brosnan also just knew what the audience wanted from Bond: it’s an acting performance but also an entertainment one. They want the vicarious pleasure of watching someone being just a little bit of a dick and getting away with it in a way we know we couldn’t in real life because no one is as cool as Bond: that’s part of the fun of him as a screen character. Dalton wanted to play the book character, which is admirable but just not quite what audiences expected after 14 movies of the Bond we knew. It might say ‘Ian Fleming’s James Bond 007’ at the top, but really it’s Ian Fleming, Cubby Broccoli and Harry Saltzman’s version of the character we’re watching.
    I love TLD, it’s maybe my favourite and I do enjoy how Dalton adds to the more serious tone of it, but I can’t help but think Brosnan would have been a bigger hit in it.

    Again, what I find ironic is that LTK’s biggest asset isn’t that it’s a particularly Fleming-esque take on Bond (Bond acts rather uncharacteristically getting involved the way he does you could argue). But I don’t think it’s a film we’d have gotten with Brosnan.

    Brosnan had his limitations too, don’t get me wrong. But with GE at least I think he showed he was capable of giving us a good cinematic Bond that didn’t feel like a caricature nor was it too stripped back.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited 11:05am Posts: 19,457
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    To be fair I like that they leaned into Dalton’s strengths with LTK. He’s much more convincing scowling and coldly holding Lupe at knife point rather than cracking a line during an action sequence or even showing subtle warmth.

    That’s a good point, he is good in that scene.
    007HallY wrote: »
    That said, I can understand why going forward MGM weren’t as keen on him continuing in the role. It’s hard to shake this feeling he may have been a bit limited in terms of what he could do as Bond despite his talent as an actor. I always find Brosnan’s performance in GE the more subtle, convincing one compared to Dalton’s in LTK, and find there’s actually a bit more going on there with Bond.

    Yes, I think Brosnan also just knew what the audience wanted from Bond: it’s an acting performance but also an entertainment one. They want the vicarious pleasure of watching someone being just a little bit of a dick and getting away with it in a way we know we couldn’t in real life because no one is as cool as Bond: that’s part of the fun of him as a screen character. Dalton wanted to play the book character, which is admirable but just not quite what audiences expected after 14 movies of the Bond we knew. It might say ‘Ian Fleming’s James Bond 007’ at the top, but really it’s Ian Fleming, Cubby Broccoli and Harry Saltzman’s version of the character we’re watching.
    I love TLD, it’s maybe my favourite and I do enjoy how Dalton adds to the more serious tone of it, but I can’t help but think Brosnan would have been a bigger hit in it.

    Again, what I find ironic is that LTK’s biggest asset isn’t that it’s a particularly Fleming-esque take on Bond (Bond acts rather uncharacteristically getting involved the way he does you could argue). But I don’t think it’s a film we’d have gotten with Brosnan.

    Oh I think that's a sure thing! That said, I think Brosnan could have done it: considering he was the star of comedy detective show Remington Steel, he gives a surprisingly convincing cold and dangerous performance in Fourth Protocol- watching that I think he'd have handled all of the colder moments of TLD and LTK just fine, although yeah, LTK is more suited to Dalton.
    Mind you, I have sort of run the thought experiment of putting Rog in LTK, and I think even that would have worked! It's not really a million miles away from the stuff he was doing in FYEO (same director of course so they're not that different) or indeed Wild Geese and the like, and to be honest I can imagine him at the wedding -and indeed having any sort of screen chemistry and connection with David Hedison- actually better than Dalton! I'm not saying he'd have been more suited to it than Dalton, or that it would have been a good move to do it, but I don't think it would have been impossible :D
    007HallY wrote: »
    Brosnan had his limitations too, don’t get me wrong. But with GE at least I think he showed he was capable of giving us a good cinematic Bond that didn’t feel like a caricature nor was it too stripped back.

    I think he absolutely has limitations too, yes(!), but he was also a proper movie star and just what the series needed at the time. It was funny during that GE watchalong when he said he intentionally pitched his performance between Sean and Roger, which is probably accurate but I think maybe doing himself down slightly, I think there's more to it than that.
  • Posts: 2,709
    TripAces wrote: »
    Personally the reason I find Dalton to be more engaging as Bond as opposed to Craig is exactly because of how theatrical and expressive he is. It might be too much for others - which is totally understandable. But for me, Dalton’s full of energy in those two films he did - and particularly coming after some of the later Moore films it feels very welcoming. I can get why some people may find that he’s not “swaggering” enough or not “comfortable” enough but like GoldenGun mentioned above - it’s a performance riddled to the brim with nuances - and I don’t think any of the other Bond actors would’ve worked in those two films. I certainly don’t see Craig’s Bond - for as good as he is in his own ways - being able to keep up with Koskov’s schemes and outwitting him. Nor do I see Craig infiltrating a drug ring to destroy it from within. Of all the Bond actors - Dalton feels the most like a professional intelligence agent - and I think he is by far the smartest and most cunning of all the Bonds.

    To me, at times, Dalton's portrayal of inner turmoil came across like an actor trying really hard to portray inner turmoil. It seemed forced. That isn't to say I disliked Dalton in the role. I thought he was put in a very difficult position following Moore and trying to bring something new to the character. It's a shame he didn't get a third film. I think a case could be made that each actor's third film (GF. TSWLM, TWINE, SF) is his best.

    Can’t say that I agree with you there. Theatrical? Yeah I’d say so but forced? Not to my eyes.

    This is the one criticism i have with Dalton's performance in LTK. He's trying too hard and you can see the acting so i would agree with @TripAces

    I still think he was a great Bond and his performance in Daylights is one of the best in the series.

    To be honest I feel that way more about Craig as opposed to Dalton - particularly in his last two outings.

    Really all actors have their limitations but I’ve never let them stop me from enjoying the performances. I don’t think Timothy or Pierce have Daniel Day Lewis levels of acting but I found them incredibly entertaining as the leads of their films - and Dalton in particular just continues to rise up in my estimations the more I revisit his films. I respect everyone’s views on the man and his Bond but I just don’t agree really - and going by the results of our recent ranking of the actors - he’s a lot more than what people are describing him as and he still resonates with fans to this day.
    mtm wrote: »
    I think he absolutely has limitations too, yes(!), but he was also a proper movie star and just what the series needed at the time. It was funny during that GE watchalong when he said he intentionally pitched his performance between Sean and Roger, which is probably accurate but I think maybe doing himself down slightly, I think there's more to it than that.

    Pierce’s portrayal in GE is my personal favorite of the series - you can see where he borrowed elements from his predecessors but yet he feels more calculated - like a true professional who is the best at his work. I think he sort of loses that edge as his films go by and that’s such a shame imo. Still he’s my favorite Bond largely because of his performance in GE.
  • MSL49MSL49 Finland
    Posts: 745
    Is out there actor who has that charisma who could play Bond 10 plus years? I think there is few and they have to select one.
  • Posts: 8,593
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    To be fair I like that they leaned into Dalton’s strengths with LTK. He’s much more convincing scowling and coldly holding Lupe at knife point rather than cracking a line during an action sequence or even showing subtle warmth.

    That’s a good point, he is good in that scene.
    007HallY wrote: »
    That said, I can understand why going forward MGM weren’t as keen on him continuing in the role. It’s hard to shake this feeling he may have been a bit limited in terms of what he could do as Bond despite his talent as an actor. I always find Brosnan’s performance in GE the more subtle, convincing one compared to Dalton’s in LTK, and find there’s actually a bit more going on there with Bond.

    Yes, I think Brosnan also just knew what the audience wanted from Bond: it’s an acting performance but also an entertainment one. They want the vicarious pleasure of watching someone being just a little bit of a dick and getting away with it in a way we know we couldn’t in real life because no one is as cool as Bond: that’s part of the fun of him as a screen character. Dalton wanted to play the book character, which is admirable but just not quite what audiences expected after 14 movies of the Bond we knew. It might say ‘Ian Fleming’s James Bond 007’ at the top, but really it’s Ian Fleming, Cubby Broccoli and Harry Saltzman’s version of the character we’re watching.
    I love TLD, it’s maybe my favourite and I do enjoy how Dalton adds to the more serious tone of it, but I can’t help but think Brosnan would have been a bigger hit in it.

    Nope
  • Posts: 6,183
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    To be fair I like that they leaned into Dalton’s strengths with LTK. He’s much more convincing scowling and coldly holding Lupe at knife point rather than cracking a line during an action sequence or even showing subtle warmth.

    That’s a good point, he is good in that scene.
    007HallY wrote: »
    That said, I can understand why going forward MGM weren’t as keen on him continuing in the role. It’s hard to shake this feeling he may have been a bit limited in terms of what he could do as Bond despite his talent as an actor. I always find Brosnan’s performance in GE the more subtle, convincing one compared to Dalton’s in LTK, and find there’s actually a bit more going on there with Bond.

    Yes, I think Brosnan also just knew what the audience wanted from Bond: it’s an acting performance but also an entertainment one. They want the vicarious pleasure of watching someone being just a little bit of a dick and getting away with it in a way we know we couldn’t in real life because no one is as cool as Bond: that’s part of the fun of him as a screen character. Dalton wanted to play the book character, which is admirable but just not quite what audiences expected after 14 movies of the Bond we knew. It might say ‘Ian Fleming’s James Bond 007’ at the top, but really it’s Ian Fleming, Cubby Broccoli and Harry Saltzman’s version of the character we’re watching.
    I love TLD, it’s maybe my favourite and I do enjoy how Dalton adds to the more serious tone of it, but I can’t help but think Brosnan would have been a bigger hit in it.

    Nope

    I think it would have been a bigger hit with Brosnan, for sure. But not a significantly bigger one. If anything Brosnan benefited from becoming Bond in the 90s once the late 80s American action film craze had died down and Bond was brought back.

    I'd say Brosnan was better off with something like GE as well. He'd have done well in TLD, but the film was probably better suited to Dalton with its take on Fleming's material and readapting of FRWL's basic outline. Plus I'd argue GE is simply a better Bond film.
  • Posts: 2,709
    007HallY wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    To be fair I like that they leaned into Dalton’s strengths with LTK. He’s much more convincing scowling and coldly holding Lupe at knife point rather than cracking a line during an action sequence or even showing subtle warmth.

    That’s a good point, he is good in that scene.
    007HallY wrote: »
    That said, I can understand why going forward MGM weren’t as keen on him continuing in the role. It’s hard to shake this feeling he may have been a bit limited in terms of what he could do as Bond despite his talent as an actor. I always find Brosnan’s performance in GE the more subtle, convincing one compared to Dalton’s in LTK, and find there’s actually a bit more going on there with Bond.

    Yes, I think Brosnan also just knew what the audience wanted from Bond: it’s an acting performance but also an entertainment one. They want the vicarious pleasure of watching someone being just a little bit of a dick and getting away with it in a way we know we couldn’t in real life because no one is as cool as Bond: that’s part of the fun of him as a screen character. Dalton wanted to play the book character, which is admirable but just not quite what audiences expected after 14 movies of the Bond we knew. It might say ‘Ian Fleming’s James Bond 007’ at the top, but really it’s Ian Fleming, Cubby Broccoli and Harry Saltzman’s version of the character we’re watching.
    I love TLD, it’s maybe my favourite and I do enjoy how Dalton adds to the more serious tone of it, but I can’t help but think Brosnan would have been a bigger hit in it.

    Nope

    I think it would have been a bigger hit with Brosnan, for sure. But not a significantly bigger one. If anything Brosnan benefited from becoming Bond in the 90s once the late 80s American action film craze had died down and Bond was brought back.

    I'd say Brosnan was better off with something like GE as well. He'd have done well in TLD, but the film was probably better suited to Dalton with its take on Fleming's material and readapting of FRWL's basic outline. Plus I'd argue GE is simply a better Bond film.

    If anything TLD may have benefitted from having Brosnan due to all the media hype that was made over him getting and then losing the role. I’d say that’s one of the biggest reasons for why Dalton never took off in the states - people were expecting Brosnan to be next in line and when he didn’t get the role it unfortunately made people view Dalton as nothing more than a back up choice.

    But I think you’re right regarding Pierce and GE. By 95 he had matured more and had gone through the worst of what life had to offer with the passing of Cassandra Harris - in a twisted way that reflects in his performance in GE.
  • Posts: 8,593
    007HallY wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    To be fair I like that they leaned into Dalton’s strengths with LTK. He’s much more convincing scowling and coldly holding Lupe at knife point rather than cracking a line during an action sequence or even showing subtle warmth.

    That’s a good point, he is good in that scene.
    007HallY wrote: »
    That said, I can understand why going forward MGM weren’t as keen on him continuing in the role. It’s hard to shake this feeling he may have been a bit limited in terms of what he could do as Bond despite his talent as an actor. I always find Brosnan’s performance in GE the more subtle, convincing one compared to Dalton’s in LTK, and find there’s actually a bit more going on there with Bond.

    Yes, I think Brosnan also just knew what the audience wanted from Bond: it’s an acting performance but also an entertainment one. They want the vicarious pleasure of watching someone being just a little bit of a dick and getting away with it in a way we know we couldn’t in real life because no one is as cool as Bond: that’s part of the fun of him as a screen character. Dalton wanted to play the book character, which is admirable but just not quite what audiences expected after 14 movies of the Bond we knew. It might say ‘Ian Fleming’s James Bond 007’ at the top, but really it’s Ian Fleming, Cubby Broccoli and Harry Saltzman’s version of the character we’re watching.
    I love TLD, it’s maybe my favourite and I do enjoy how Dalton adds to the more serious tone of it, but I can’t help but think Brosnan would have been a bigger hit in it.

    Nope

    I think it would have been a bigger hit with Brosnan, for sure. But not a significantly bigger one. If anything Brosnan benefited from becoming Bond in the 90s once the late 80s American action film craze had died down and Bond was brought back.

    I'd say Brosnan was better off with something like GE as well. He'd have done well in TLD, but the film was probably better suited to Dalton with its take on Fleming's material and readapting of FRWL's basic outline. Plus I'd argue GE is simply a better Bond film.

    I interpreted as him saying Brosnan would been better in TLD than Dalton! Which I disagree. It's true Brossa was liked better by our American friends, of course he was, he was known better there than Dalton, but that's not to say he was good in the role imo, and I wouldn't trade a minute of Daltons two appearances to all four of Brossas films!
  • Posts: 2,489
    007HallY wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    To be fair I like that they leaned into Dalton’s strengths with LTK. He’s much more convincing scowling and coldly holding Lupe at knife point rather than cracking a line during an action sequence or even showing subtle warmth.

    That’s a good point, he is good in that scene.
    007HallY wrote: »
    That said, I can understand why going forward MGM weren’t as keen on him continuing in the role. It’s hard to shake this feeling he may have been a bit limited in terms of what he could do as Bond despite his talent as an actor. I always find Brosnan’s performance in GE the more subtle, convincing one compared to Dalton’s in LTK, and find there’s actually a bit more going on there with Bond.

    Yes, I think Brosnan also just knew what the audience wanted from Bond: it’s an acting performance but also an entertainment one. They want the vicarious pleasure of watching someone being just a little bit of a dick and getting away with it in a way we know we couldn’t in real life because no one is as cool as Bond: that’s part of the fun of him as a screen character. Dalton wanted to play the book character, which is admirable but just not quite what audiences expected after 14 movies of the Bond we knew. It might say ‘Ian Fleming’s James Bond 007’ at the top, but really it’s Ian Fleming, Cubby Broccoli and Harry Saltzman’s version of the character we’re watching.
    I love TLD, it’s maybe my favourite and I do enjoy how Dalton adds to the more serious tone of it, but I can’t help but think Brosnan would have been a bigger hit in it.

    Nope

    I think it would have been a bigger hit with Brosnan, for sure. But not a significantly bigger one. If anything Brosnan benefited from becoming Bond in the 90s once the late 80s American action film craze had died down and Bond was brought back.

    I'd say Brosnan was better off with something like GE as well. He'd have done well in TLD, but the film was probably better suited to Dalton with its take on Fleming's material and readapting of FRWL's basic outline. Plus I'd argue GE is simply a better Bond film.

    I think both of Dalton's films are better than any of Brosnan's. In fact, I think Brosnan deserved better scripts, and somehow the Dalton era stole them from him.

    Yes, Brosnan shone brighter when he was like Moore, but the truth is that even Moore had his FYEO
  • Posts: 6,183
    007HallY wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    To be fair I like that they leaned into Dalton’s strengths with LTK. He’s much more convincing scowling and coldly holding Lupe at knife point rather than cracking a line during an action sequence or even showing subtle warmth.

    That’s a good point, he is good in that scene.
    007HallY wrote: »
    That said, I can understand why going forward MGM weren’t as keen on him continuing in the role. It’s hard to shake this feeling he may have been a bit limited in terms of what he could do as Bond despite his talent as an actor. I always find Brosnan’s performance in GE the more subtle, convincing one compared to Dalton’s in LTK, and find there’s actually a bit more going on there with Bond.

    Yes, I think Brosnan also just knew what the audience wanted from Bond: it’s an acting performance but also an entertainment one. They want the vicarious pleasure of watching someone being just a little bit of a dick and getting away with it in a way we know we couldn’t in real life because no one is as cool as Bond: that’s part of the fun of him as a screen character. Dalton wanted to play the book character, which is admirable but just not quite what audiences expected after 14 movies of the Bond we knew. It might say ‘Ian Fleming’s James Bond 007’ at the top, but really it’s Ian Fleming, Cubby Broccoli and Harry Saltzman’s version of the character we’re watching.
    I love TLD, it’s maybe my favourite and I do enjoy how Dalton adds to the more serious tone of it, but I can’t help but think Brosnan would have been a bigger hit in it.

    Nope

    I think it would have been a bigger hit with Brosnan, for sure. But not a significantly bigger one. If anything Brosnan benefited from becoming Bond in the 90s once the late 80s American action film craze had died down and Bond was brought back.

    I'd say Brosnan was better off with something like GE as well. He'd have done well in TLD, but the film was probably better suited to Dalton with its take on Fleming's material and readapting of FRWL's basic outline. Plus I'd argue GE is simply a better Bond film.

    I think both of Dalton's films are better than any of Brosnan's. In fact, I think Brosnan deserved better scripts, and somehow the Dalton era stole them from him.

    Yes, Brosnan shone brighter when he was like Moore, but the truth is that even Moore had his FYEO

    Personal preference I guess. I think TLD suffers from weak villains and Bond girl. It's never been a top ten Bond film for me, although I like it a lot.

    LTK is great. Filmmaking isn't quite as high quality as GE, and as I said I don't think it's quite the gritty, Fleming esque adventure many see it as (it has its share of silliness, and I've never been a fan of the weird love triangle). But it's in my top ten.

    I think GE was the set up the series needed. I actually get more out of TND than TLD. But I agree that Brosnan's last two films were a bit lacking on the script front.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 19,457
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    To be fair I like that they leaned into Dalton’s strengths with LTK. He’s much more convincing scowling and coldly holding Lupe at knife point rather than cracking a line during an action sequence or even showing subtle warmth.

    That’s a good point, he is good in that scene.
    007HallY wrote: »
    That said, I can understand why going forward MGM weren’t as keen on him continuing in the role. It’s hard to shake this feeling he may have been a bit limited in terms of what he could do as Bond despite his talent as an actor. I always find Brosnan’s performance in GE the more subtle, convincing one compared to Dalton’s in LTK, and find there’s actually a bit more going on there with Bond.

    Yes, I think Brosnan also just knew what the audience wanted from Bond: it’s an acting performance but also an entertainment one. They want the vicarious pleasure of watching someone being just a little bit of a dick and getting away with it in a way we know we couldn’t in real life because no one is as cool as Bond: that’s part of the fun of him as a screen character. Dalton wanted to play the book character, which is admirable but just not quite what audiences expected after 14 movies of the Bond we knew. It might say ‘Ian Fleming’s James Bond 007’ at the top, but really it’s Ian Fleming, Cubby Broccoli and Harry Saltzman’s version of the character we’re watching.
    I love TLD, it’s maybe my favourite and I do enjoy how Dalton adds to the more serious tone of it, but I can’t help but think Brosnan would have been a bigger hit in it.

    Nope

    I think it would have been a bigger hit with Brosnan, for sure. But not a significantly bigger one. If anything Brosnan benefited from becoming Bond in the 90s once the late 80s American action film craze had died down and Bond was brought back.

    I'd say Brosnan was better off with something like GE as well. He'd have done well in TLD, but the film was probably better suited to Dalton with its take on Fleming's material and readapting of FRWL's basic outline. Plus I'd argue GE is simply a better Bond film.

    I interpreted as him saying Brosnan would been better in TLD than Dalton!

    Yup.

    And also probably more popular with audiences too i.e a bigger hit. But 007HallY's right in saying that GE was probably better for him.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 1,146
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    To be fair I like that they leaned into Dalton’s strengths with LTK. He’s much more convincing scowling and coldly holding Lupe at knife point rather than cracking a line during an action sequence or even showing subtle warmth.

    That’s a good point, he is good in that scene.
    007HallY wrote: »
    That said, I can understand why going forward MGM weren’t as keen on him continuing in the role. It’s hard to shake this feeling he may have been a bit limited in terms of what he could do as Bond despite his talent as an actor. I always find Brosnan’s performance in GE the more subtle, convincing one compared to Dalton’s in LTK, and find there’s actually a bit more going on there with Bond.

    Yes, I think Brosnan also just knew what the audience wanted from Bond: it’s an acting performance but also an entertainment one. They want the vicarious pleasure of watching someone being just a little bit of a dick and getting away with it in a way we know we couldn’t in real life because no one is as cool as Bond: that’s part of the fun of him as a screen character. Dalton wanted to play the book character, which is admirable but just not quite what audiences expected after 14 movies of the Bond we knew. It might say ‘Ian Fleming’s James Bond 007’ at the top, but really it’s Ian Fleming, Cubby Broccoli and Harry Saltzman’s version of the character we’re watching.
    I love TLD, it’s maybe my favourite and I do enjoy how Dalton adds to the more serious tone of it, but I can’t help but think Brosnan would have been a bigger hit in it.

    Nope

    I think it would have been a bigger hit with Brosnan, for sure. But not a significantly bigger one. If anything Brosnan benefited from becoming Bond in the 90s once the late 80s American action film craze had died down and Bond was brought back.

    I'd say Brosnan was better off with something like GE as well. He'd have done well in TLD, but the film was probably better suited to Dalton with its take on Fleming's material and readapting of FRWL's basic outline. Plus I'd argue GE is simply a better Bond film.

    I think both of Dalton's films are better than any of Brosnan's. In fact, I think Brosnan deserved better scripts, and somehow the Dalton era stole them from him.

    Yes, Brosnan shone brighter when he was like Moore, but the truth is that even Moore had his FYEO

    Personal preference I guess. I think TLD suffers from weak villains and Bond girl. It's never been a top ten Bond film for me, although I like it a lot.

    LTK is great. Filmmaking isn't quite as high quality as GE, and as I said I don't think it's quite the gritty, Fleming esque adventure many see it as (it has its share of silliness, and I've never been a fan of the weird love triangle). But it's in my top ten.

    I think GE was the set up the series needed. I actually get more out of TND than TLD. But I agree that Brosnan's last two films were a bit lacking on the script front.
    I’m not a fan of TLD, but LTK I’ve always liked. I do think LTK looks a bit cheap next to GE, though. The Brosnan era was the start of the 007 films getting very slick, with lots of money on screen. The Craig films look more expensive still. I think throwing all that money up on screen is now key to the premium feel Bond has acquired, and the films have arguably never looked better in terms of cinematography.

    Viewers might not like all the Craig films, but most would admit they all look good to amazing. I watched the beginning of Spectre the other day, and it’s such a great pre-credit sequence, just a pity it’s tied to a film I don’t like.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,846
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    To be fair I like that they leaned into Dalton’s strengths with LTK. He’s much more convincing scowling and coldly holding Lupe at knife point rather than cracking a line during an action sequence or even showing subtle warmth.

    That’s a good point, he is good in that scene.
    007HallY wrote: »
    That said, I can understand why going forward MGM weren’t as keen on him continuing in the role. It’s hard to shake this feeling he may have been a bit limited in terms of what he could do as Bond despite his talent as an actor. I always find Brosnan’s performance in GE the more subtle, convincing one compared to Dalton’s in LTK, and find there’s actually a bit more going on there with Bond.

    Yes, I think Brosnan also just knew what the audience wanted from Bond: it’s an acting performance but also an entertainment one. They want the vicarious pleasure of watching someone being just a little bit of a dick and getting away with it in a way we know we couldn’t in real life because no one is as cool as Bond: that’s part of the fun of him as a screen character. Dalton wanted to play the book character, which is admirable but just not quite what audiences expected after 14 movies of the Bond we knew. It might say ‘Ian Fleming’s James Bond 007’ at the top, but really it’s Ian Fleming, Cubby Broccoli and Harry Saltzman’s version of the character we’re watching.
    I love TLD, it’s maybe my favourite and I do enjoy how Dalton adds to the more serious tone of it, but I can’t help but think Brosnan would have been a bigger hit in it.

    Nope

    I think it would have been a bigger hit with Brosnan, for sure. But not a significantly bigger one. If anything Brosnan benefited from becoming Bond in the 90s once the late 80s American action film craze had died down and Bond was brought back.

    I'd say Brosnan was better off with something like GE as well. He'd have done well in TLD, but the film was probably better suited to Dalton with its take on Fleming's material and readapting of FRWL's basic outline. Plus I'd argue GE is simply a better Bond film.

    I think both of Dalton's films are better than any of Brosnan's. In fact, I think Brosnan deserved better scripts, and somehow the Dalton era stole them from him.

    Yes, Brosnan shone brighter when he was like Moore, but the truth is that even Moore had his FYEO

    Personal preference I guess. I think TLD suffers from weak villains and Bond girl. It's never been a top ten Bond film for me, although I like it a lot.

    LTK is great. Filmmaking isn't quite as high quality as GE, and as I said I don't think it's quite the gritty, Fleming esque adventure many see it as (it has its share of silliness, and I've never been a fan of the weird love triangle). But it's in my top ten.

    I think GE was the set up the series needed. I actually get more out of TND than TLD. But I agree that Brosnan's last two films were a bit lacking on the script front.

    There's a good film within Die Another Day. It just was watered down with poor CGI and questionable dialogue at times.

    TWINE felt a little too paint by numbers
  • Posts: 6,183
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    To be fair I like that they leaned into Dalton’s strengths with LTK. He’s much more convincing scowling and coldly holding Lupe at knife point rather than cracking a line during an action sequence or even showing subtle warmth.

    That’s a good point, he is good in that scene.
    007HallY wrote: »
    That said, I can understand why going forward MGM weren’t as keen on him continuing in the role. It’s hard to shake this feeling he may have been a bit limited in terms of what he could do as Bond despite his talent as an actor. I always find Brosnan’s performance in GE the more subtle, convincing one compared to Dalton’s in LTK, and find there’s actually a bit more going on there with Bond.

    Yes, I think Brosnan also just knew what the audience wanted from Bond: it’s an acting performance but also an entertainment one. They want the vicarious pleasure of watching someone being just a little bit of a dick and getting away with it in a way we know we couldn’t in real life because no one is as cool as Bond: that’s part of the fun of him as a screen character. Dalton wanted to play the book character, which is admirable but just not quite what audiences expected after 14 movies of the Bond we knew. It might say ‘Ian Fleming’s James Bond 007’ at the top, but really it’s Ian Fleming, Cubby Broccoli and Harry Saltzman’s version of the character we’re watching.
    I love TLD, it’s maybe my favourite and I do enjoy how Dalton adds to the more serious tone of it, but I can’t help but think Brosnan would have been a bigger hit in it.

    Nope

    I think it would have been a bigger hit with Brosnan, for sure. But not a significantly bigger one. If anything Brosnan benefited from becoming Bond in the 90s once the late 80s American action film craze had died down and Bond was brought back.

    I'd say Brosnan was better off with something like GE as well. He'd have done well in TLD, but the film was probably better suited to Dalton with its take on Fleming's material and readapting of FRWL's basic outline. Plus I'd argue GE is simply a better Bond film.

    I think both of Dalton's films are better than any of Brosnan's. In fact, I think Brosnan deserved better scripts, and somehow the Dalton era stole them from him.

    Yes, Brosnan shone brighter when he was like Moore, but the truth is that even Moore had his FYEO

    Personal preference I guess. I think TLD suffers from weak villains and Bond girl. It's never been a top ten Bond film for me, although I like it a lot.

    LTK is great. Filmmaking isn't quite as high quality as GE, and as I said I don't think it's quite the gritty, Fleming esque adventure many see it as (it has its share of silliness, and I've never been a fan of the weird love triangle). But it's in my top ten.

    I think GE was the set up the series needed. I actually get more out of TND than TLD. But I agree that Brosnan's last two films were a bit lacking on the script front.

    There's a good film within Die Another Day. It just was watered down with poor CGI and questionable dialogue at times.

    TWINE felt a little too paint by numbers

    Oh, I think there are wonderful films in both of them (for TWINE it's arguably SF, but that's me being facetious). I think both could have been done better.
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