Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Posts: 18,129
    Daniela Bianchi might not have been that much of an actress, but I think they got the best out of her in FRWL.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 15,315
    She shows a bit of range during her meeting with Klebb.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited August 10 Posts: 742
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    Now, at least it's changed, but still, whenever the word Bond Girls are coming up, the first word that may come to the people's minds are their looks, and their appearances more than their capabilities or whether if the actresses are good in their roles, which is a bit sexist to me, unlike the villains and Bond Actors where they're talking about them seriously and considering how much they've carried the role.

    On the other hand it's not like they were casting an ugly guy as James Bond either

    There have been many who have suggested George Lazenby was chosen for his looks and criticised his acting ability or experience

    Roger Moore and Pierce Brosnan have also had their detractors on the acting front

    While respected thespians like Anthony Hopkins and Peter O'Toole were never asked to audition for the role


  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,750
    It’s film. A visual medium. People don’t want to see or hear what they see every day.

    Sexist? Or human nature (in most cases, people like looking at pretty things, whether a location, a leading woman, a leading man, a sexy car, a beautiful home)?
  • Posts: 2,308
    Seve wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    Now, at least it's changed, but still, whenever the word Bond Girls are coming up, the first word that may come to the people's minds are their looks, and their appearances more than their capabilities or whether if the actresses are good in their roles, which is a bit sexist to me, unlike the villains and Bond Actors where they're talking about them seriously and considering how much they've carried the role.

    On the other hand it's not like they were casting an ugly guy as James Bond either

    There have been many who have suggested George Lazenby was chosen for his looks and criticised his acting ability or experience

    Roger Moore and Pierce Brosnan have also had their detractors on the acting front

    While respected thespians like Anthony Hopkins and Peter O'Toole were never asked to audition for the role


    Hopkins made a Bond-esque movie and It was... weird.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,750
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Haven't seen such a crusade against George since 1999, but one thing is for sure: he is the only man in the role who made me cry.

    My thoughts remain that Laz suffers more for not being Connery than anything else. He's convincing as a charmer, convincing as a man in love, and the best of the lot when it comes to fisticuffs.

    I don't think the infallable Bond of the previous five entries, or the foolproof one of the next eight, however entertaining they obviously were, could have fit OHMSS quite as well as Lazenby's Bond.

    I honestly don't see what he's supposed to be doing so badly here, but hey to each their own. For me Lazenby has always been an excellent Bond. There's a pathos he brings to the role that I think works very well.

    Not a crusade, but more showcasing, discussing, debating, that whatever one may see as OHMSS failing at the box office, it’s pretty clear it wasn’t the tone of the film (in fact, the course change for this film was generally praised!), but it was the leading man.

    And no matter how much I love OHMSS, the weakest link, by far, is the emptiness of Laz. Was he fine in some scenes— yes. But he was out of his depth, uncomfortable in too many others, and audiences saw that on the big screen.

    But by no means was this a crusade, lol. Just a discussion debating whether it was the tone of the film that turned off audiences in 1969, or was it the leading man.

    I think the evidence would suggest that audiences didn’t connect with Lazenby.

    And i understand those reasons.
  • edited August 10 Posts: 18,129
    I think one of the reasons I like OHMSS, all it's greater aspects and it's lesser aspects aside, is probably the fact that it's a one-off. We only had this Bond once, which makes the film a novelty and it benefits from it.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,907
    Ludovico wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    There wasn't a lot going on behind Lazenby's eyes. Which is fine for a hook-up, but to fall in love with?...

    I say this as someone who loves OHMSS, 😂. The gravitas of the film starts and stops with a terrific novel, script, vision of Hunt, and two actors: Rigg and to a lesser extent, Savalas.

    +Ilse Steppat and Gabrielle Ferzetti. I think those two performances are great as well.

    Oddly I’d argue it’s some of Bernard Lee and Lois Maxwell’s best performances in Bond too.

    It’s a frustrating thing with OHMSS - it’s lead doesn’t do it justice even if he has his moments. I love it by the way, and can also acknowledge it has flaws on a creative/filmmaker level (Nolan and Soderbergh be dammed - I don’t believe this is the best Bond film by any measure). Great film though.

    My controversial opinion about Moneypenny in OHMSS: the movie gave us the greatest Moneypenny moments. In a way, the character never truly recovered from it.

    I also think this is the correct take. Moneypenny kind of became superfluous after OHMSS. It might have been the right move to move to Goodnight with DAF.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,735
    peter wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Haven't seen such a crusade against George since 1999, but one thing is for sure: he is the only man in the role who made me cry.

    My thoughts remain that Laz suffers more for not being Connery than anything else. He's convincing as a charmer, convincing as a man in love, and the best of the lot when it comes to fisticuffs.

    I don't think the infallable Bond of the previous five entries, or the foolproof one of the next eight, however entertaining they obviously were, could have fit OHMSS quite as well as Lazenby's Bond.

    I honestly don't see what he's supposed to be doing so badly here, but hey to each their own. For me Lazenby has always been an excellent Bond. There's a pathos he brings to the role that I think works very well.

    Not a crusade, but more showcasing, discussing, debating, that whatever one may see as OHMSS failing at the box office, it’s pretty clear it wasn’t the tone of the film (in fact, the course change for this film was generally praised!), but it was the leading man.

    And no matter how much I love OHMSS, the weakest link, by far, is the emptiness of Laz. Was he fine in some scenes— yes. But he was out of his depth, uncomfortable in too many others, and audiences saw that on the big screen.

    But by no means was this a crusade, lol. Just a discussion debating whether it was the tone of the film that turned off audiences in 1969, or was it the leading man.

    I think the evidence would suggest that audiences didn’t connect with Lazenby.

    And i understand those reasons.

    Fair enough. I don't see all of that in his performance, which I think was excellent.

    But you are quite right that it was the leading man, not being Connery, that made it hard for people to connect with this entry.

    So regardless of our differing opinions on Lazenby, I do think you are right that it's his presence, or rather the absence of Connery, that OHMSS suffered from.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited August 10 Posts: 9,750
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Haven't seen such a crusade against George since 1999, but one thing is for sure: he is the only man in the role who made me cry.

    My thoughts remain that Laz suffers more for not being Connery than anything else. He's convincing as a charmer, convincing as a man in love, and the best of the lot when it comes to fisticuffs.

    I don't think the infallable Bond of the previous five entries, or the foolproof one of the next eight, however entertaining they obviously were, could have fit OHMSS quite as well as Lazenby's Bond.

    I honestly don't see what he's supposed to be doing so badly here, but hey to each their own. For me Lazenby has always been an excellent Bond. There's a pathos he brings to the role that I think works very well.

    Not a crusade, but more showcasing, discussing, debating, that whatever one may see as OHMSS failing at the box office, it’s pretty clear it wasn’t the tone of the film (in fact, the course change for this film was generally praised!), but it was the leading man.

    And no matter how much I love OHMSS, the weakest link, by far, is the emptiness of Laz. Was he fine in some scenes— yes. But he was out of his depth, uncomfortable in too many others, and audiences saw that on the big screen.

    But by no means was this a crusade, lol. Just a discussion debating whether it was the tone of the film that turned off audiences in 1969, or was it the leading man.

    I think the evidence would suggest that audiences didn’t connect with Lazenby.

    And i understand those reasons.

    Fair enough. I don't see all of that in his performance, which I think was excellent.

    But you are quite right that it was the leading man, not being Connery, that made it hard for people to connect with this entry.

    So regardless of our differing opinions on Lazenby, I do think you are right that it's his presence, or rather the absence of Connery, that OHMSS suffered from.

    For all the faults that I see, I know I’d still rather watch him, and I do watch him more, than certain other Bond films and certain actors in the role. It’s a two things, or more, can be true at the same time, type of situation for me.

    And the discussion I was having was more based on the argument that it wasn’t Lazenby that turned off the audiences in 1969, but more the tone of the film— and I strongly disagree with that perspective, and I think the general evidence would also back me up. That’s all. No offence was meant, especially for those who love George in the role.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,735
    peter wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Haven't seen such a crusade against George since 1999, but one thing is for sure: he is the only man in the role who made me cry.

    My thoughts remain that Laz suffers more for not being Connery than anything else. He's convincing as a charmer, convincing as a man in love, and the best of the lot when it comes to fisticuffs.

    I don't think the infallable Bond of the previous five entries, or the foolproof one of the next eight, however entertaining they obviously were, could have fit OHMSS quite as well as Lazenby's Bond.

    I honestly don't see what he's supposed to be doing so badly here, but hey to each their own. For me Lazenby has always been an excellent Bond. There's a pathos he brings to the role that I think works very well.

    Not a crusade, but more showcasing, discussing, debating, that whatever one may see as OHMSS failing at the box office, it’s pretty clear it wasn’t the tone of the film (in fact, the course change for this film was generally praised!), but it was the leading man.

    And no matter how much I love OHMSS, the weakest link, by far, is the emptiness of Laz. Was he fine in some scenes— yes. But he was out of his depth, uncomfortable in too many others, and audiences saw that on the big screen.

    But by no means was this a crusade, lol. Just a discussion debating whether it was the tone of the film that turned off audiences in 1969, or was it the leading man.

    I think the evidence would suggest that audiences didn’t connect with Lazenby.

    And i understand those reasons.

    Fair enough. I don't see all of that in his performance, which I think was excellent.

    But you are quite right that it was the leading man, not being Connery, that made it hard for people to connect with this entry.

    So regardless of our differing opinions on Lazenby, I do think you are right that it's his presence, or rather the absence of Connery, that OHMSS suffered from.

    For all the faults that I see, I know I’d still rather watch him, and I do watch him more, than certain other Bond films and certain actors in the role. It’s a two things, or more, can be true at the same time, type of situation for me.

    And the discussion I was having was more based on the argument that it wasn’t Lazenby that turned off the audiences in 1969, but more the tone of the film— and I strongly disagree with that perspective, and I think the general evidence would also back me up. That’s all. No offence was meant, especially for those who love George in the role.

    In that case, I'm sorry that I overreacted. When it comes to George and Tim, the two most underrated 007's in my book, I can get perhaps a bit too passionate ;)

    In any case, I'd say you're right about the audience's reaction, which you indeed did back up with articles to prove that point :)
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited August 10 Posts: 9,750
    Without passion. @GoldenGun , life would be boring! We love what we love, and be damned with what others think. Remember, I’m the guy who loves NTTD— warts and all. Love it the way it is, wouldn’t change one thing about it. I see why others may dislike it, but it doesn’t matter to me. Not one iota.

    So I fully understand where you’re coming from. No need to apologize!
  • Posts: 18,129
    The mention of NTTD above @peter, makes the first time I've even thought about the film since watching it the first time! For all its warts (and no doubt good elements too), there's a film that simply did not grab me at all. And that's beside any of the storyline – and even Bond dying at the end – it simply failed to do anything for me, and I kind of just forgot about it until now – four years later!
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,750
    The mention of NTTD above @peter, makes the first time I've even thought about the film since watching it the first time! For all its warts (and no doubt good elements too), there's a film that simply did not grab me at all. And that's beside any of the storyline – and even Bond dying at the end – it simply failed to do anything for me, and I kind of just forgot about it until now – four years later!

    No matter how much I adore this flick— and that ain’t hyperbole— I’d never take away someone else’s experience or try and force what I love about it onto anyone else.

    I’ll defend my passion for it. But not to change one’s mind, but only to express what I feel and why I feel it.

    In the end, all of this is subjective and based on personal truths, and that’s all.
  • Here’s an opinion that will get me crucified - I found Die Another Day extremely entertaining after my latest rewatch. I’m well aware of all the issues with the film but I found myself having fun with the movie on its own terms. Brosnan was superb as I always find him to be, Rosamund Pike is great, Arnold’s score is quite energetic, and I liked seeing the Vanquish in action.
  • Posts: 18,129
    peter wrote: »
    The mention of NTTD above @peter, makes the first time I've even thought about the film since watching it the first time! For all its warts (and no doubt good elements too), there's a film that simply did not grab me at all. And that's beside any of the storyline – and even Bond dying at the end – it simply failed to do anything for me, and I kind of just forgot about it until now – four years later!

    No matter how much I adore this flick— and that ain’t hyperbole— I’d never take away someone else’s experience or try and force what I love about it onto anyone else.

    I’ll defend my passion for it. But not to change one’s mind, but only to express what I feel and why I feel it.

    In the end, all of this is subjective and based on personal truths, and that’s all.

    All very true, @peter! I almost didn't bring this up in the thread because it's at least a slight bit off topic, but it just struck me so much by surprise that I had simply put the film in the drawer, so to speak, until now. But that's the charm with movies too, I guess. You find those films you adore and put on again and again, then there's the ones that disappoint you, and then there are the ones that you simply find forgetful. That was NTTD for me.

    Fingers crossed for the next one!
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited August 11 Posts: 742

    Hopkins made a Bond-esque movie and It was... weird.

    Do you mean his Alastair McLean movie "When Eight Bells Toll"?

    I think it's very good, not up to Bond standards, but very respectable for the time period it was made, and I was interested to see how Anthony would go in such a role.

    Easily in the top half of Alastair McLean movies made, (which might not be saying that much)

    The Guns of Navarone
    Where Eagles Dare

    When Eight Bells Toll
    Puppet On A Chain (mainly for the boat chase)
    Force 10 From Navarone

    The Secret Ways
    Fear Is The Key (for the car chase alone)

    Ice Station Zebra
    Golden Rendezvous
    The Satan Bug
    Caravan To Vacares
    Bear Island
  • Posts: 5,729
    Here’s an opinion that will get me crucified - I found Die Another Day extremely entertaining after my latest rewatch. I’m well aware of all the issues with the film but I found myself having fun with the movie on its own terms. Brosnan was superb as I always find him to be, Rosamund Pike is great, Arnold’s score is quite energetic, and I liked seeing the Vanquish in action.

    I mean, I can very much understand having fun with DAD (I actually don't think it's the worse Bond film or even as bad as some make it out to be, even if I can very much acknowledge its flaws!)
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,765
    DAD definitely has flaws but its mostly enjoyable for what its going for. I think the main issue is the complete tonal departure compared to Brosnans last 3 films
  • Posts: 5,729
    DAD definitely has flaws but its mostly enjoyable for what its going for. I think the main issue is the complete tonal departure compared to Brosnans last 3 films

    I wouldn't necessarily say it's a complete tonal departure, although it's a very 'unique' film in terms of the way it's made (ie. the occasional bizarre, slowed down shots and strange edits - very early 2000s I guess).

    I personally think there's a great Bond film in there. Maybe a bit 'out there' with things like the gene therapy (although if done right I think that's a great idea for a villain) and invisible car. But it's not dissimilar to things we've seen in Bond before and since. The idea of Bond getting captured, tortured, and having to figure out what's happened on his own is a great concept for a Bond movie.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,765
    007HallY wrote: »
    DAD definitely has flaws but its mostly enjoyable for what its going for. I think the main issue is the complete tonal departure compared to Brosnans last 3 films

    I wouldn't necessarily say it's a complete tonal departure, although it's a very 'unique' film in terms of the way it's made (ie. the occasional bizarre, slowed down shots and strange edits - very early 2000s I guess).

    I personally think there's a great Bond film in there. Maybe a bit 'out there' with things like the gene therapy (although if done right I think that's a great idea for a villain) and invisible car. But it's not dissimilar to things we've seen in Bond before and since. The idea of Bond getting captured, tortured, and having to figure out what's happened on his own is a great concept for a Bond movie.

    The first half is peak Bond and peak Brosnan with the exception being Madonnas song. Its when it gets to Iceland is when it becomes a CGI infused almost parody. And this is coming from someone who has MR as my 3rd favorite film in the series.
  • 007HallY wrote: »
    DAD definitely has flaws but its mostly enjoyable for what its going for. I think the main issue is the complete tonal departure compared to Brosnans last 3 films

    I wouldn't necessarily say it's a complete tonal departure, although it's a very 'unique' film in terms of the way it's made (ie. the occasional bizarre, slowed down shots and strange edits - very early 2000s I guess).

    I personally think there's a great Bond film in there. Maybe a bit 'out there' with things like the gene therapy (although if done right I think that's a great idea for a villain) and invisible car. But it's not dissimilar to things we've seen in Bond before and since. The idea of Bond getting captured, tortured, and having to figure out what's happened on his own is a great concept for a Bond movie.

    Yeah there are elements that I like about the film - it’s a weird one because of its editing, the Easter eggs, and some of the casting but I can’t say that I wasn’t entertained by the film overall. It’s kind of amusing that NTTD even references the film and has similar over the top elements - which I don’t think is a bad thing in Bond. It’s nice to have adventures that can be either down to earth/gritty, fantastical, or even a mixture of both!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 11 Posts: 18,784
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I’ve never thought Barbara Bach is that bad. I find her quite engaging and characterful. She’s not the best but far from the worst, I’d say. I agree Bianchi is pretty uninteresting.
    I guess it’s fairly notable that despite the 70s Hamilton films arguably being the nadir of the series’ sexism, the actual female actors hired for those three were amongst the most talented to that point, they’re all good actors.

    She didn't have any facial expressions, her delivery of dialogues are one note, she delivered them as if she's reading the script straight while moving, and she's just flat throughout, her accent didn't sounded very Russian, just odd sounding, watching TSWLM, I think it all takes a one step and she's already a mannequin.

    You're not wrong, but I think that works for the character to be honest (well, not the accent, but it's hardly the only dodgy accent in Bond! :D ). I think she remains quite likeable and memorable in the film. I'd argue that Holly in the next movie is much better acted, and yet somehow much more forgettable. I think Bach has a bit of presence.
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Daniela Bianchi is actually my favourite Bond girl. She's super likeable, and I think she's one of the highlights in an already superb Bond film.

    Sorry, I said Bianchi and I was actually thinking of Claudine Auger. You're right, Bianchi is good.
    Seve wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    Now, at least it's changed, but still, whenever the word Bond Girls are coming up, the first word that may come to the people's minds are their looks, and their appearances more than their capabilities or whether if the actresses are good in their roles, which is a bit sexist to me, unlike the villains and Bond Actors where they're talking about them seriously and considering how much they've carried the role.

    On the other hand it's not like they were casting an ugly guy as James Bond either

    There have been many who have suggested George Lazenby was chosen for his looks and criticised his acting ability or experience

    Roger Moore and Pierce Brosnan have also had their detractors on the acting front

    While respected thespians like Anthony Hopkins and Peter O'Toole were never asked to audition for the role


    Although you can see Hopkins basically playing Bond in When Eight Bells Toll (it's on YouTube for free) and he makes a decent job of it. Kind of Richard Burton in Where Eagles Dare-ish performance.
  • Posts: 8,474
    Count me in as another fan of 'When Eight Bells Toll', and it has one of my favourite movie themes!
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