Which Bond novel are you currently reading?

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  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,810
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    The racism in LALD is casual, but when you consider Fleming's derisory view of the civil rights movement (he saw it as a communist front), it's obvious he saw black people as inferior and apartheid necessary. The Korean jibes may have been influenced by the Korean War, it only ended five years previously.

    Yes, the Korean War might have had some influence, though in that case one would have thought that Fleming would have made a distinction between North and South Koreans. I think it's a stretch to say that Fleming had a derisory view of the civil rights movement as a communist front. Mr. Big doesn't have much to do with the 50s/60s Civil Rights movement, which was kicked off by Rosa Parks shortly after Fleming finished writing LALD. We're told by Dexter the FBI agent, who Leiter characterizes as a stuffed shirt, that if Mr. Big gets arrested there will be a race riot, and "those Voodoo drums would start beating from here to the Deep South." In other words, Mr. Big would use his status as a voodoo figurehead to get those under his thrall to make trouble on his behalf. "Race riot" was a catchall term for any violent disturbance caused by non-whites, regardless of cause. Fleming is making an obviously racist overstatement of the influence of voodoo on African Americans, but not a blanket statement on the Civil Rights movement itself.

    Not sure it was around then, but Fleming later apologised for the association.

    I think Fleming was ultimately anti-communist more than a full-on racist. We hear such associations these days, too, so it's probable.

    That's interesting. I don't think I've heard of that before. Do you happen to know where that comes from?

    I agree that Fleming wasn't a full-on hateful racist when it came to blacks. His views were more patronising in nature and are dated nowadays. It was very much the attitudes of the time and he merely reflected that in his writing. They were different times.

    Racist attitudes of the time are still racist attitudes, and it's important we remember anti-racism was a 'thing' back then, too.

    There is no justification for being racist. Certainly jot the zeitgeist and when we factor Fleming's
    politics, we have to be all the more careful.

    Yeah but the anti-racism of the 50's is racism now :D

    lol

    Given time it'll be racist to even talk about racism.
  • edited July 3 Posts: 2,202
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    The racism in LALD is casual, but when you consider Fleming's derisory view of the civil rights movement (he saw it as a communist front), it's obvious he saw black people as inferior and apartheid necessary. The Korean jibes may have been influenced by the Korean War, it only ended five years previously.

    Yes, the Korean War might have had some influence, though in that case one would have thought that Fleming would have made a distinction between North and South Koreans. I think it's a stretch to say that Fleming had a derisory view of the civil rights movement as a communist front. Mr. Big doesn't have much to do with the 50s/60s Civil Rights movement, which was kicked off by Rosa Parks shortly after Fleming finished writing LALD. We're told by Dexter the FBI agent, who Leiter characterizes as a stuffed shirt, that if Mr. Big gets arrested there will be a race riot, and "those Voodoo drums would start beating from here to the Deep South." In other words, Mr. Big would use his status as a voodoo figurehead to get those under his thrall to make trouble on his behalf. "Race riot" was a catchall term for any violent disturbance caused by non-whites, regardless of cause. Fleming is making an obviously racist overstatement of the influence of voodoo on African Americans, but not a blanket statement on the Civil Rights movement itself.

    Not sure it was around then, but Fleming later apologised for the association.

    I think Fleming was ultimately anti-communist more than a full-on racist. We hear such associations these days, too, so it's probable.

    That's interesting. I don't think I've heard of that before. Do you happen to know where that comes from?

    I agree that Fleming wasn't a full-on hateful racist when it came to blacks. His views were more patronising in nature and are dated nowadays. It was very much the attitudes of the time and he merely reflected that in his writing. They were different times.

    Racist attitudes of the time are still racist attitudes, and it's important we remember anti-racism was a 'thing' back then, too.

    There is no justification for being racist. Certainly jot the zeitgeist and when we factor Fleming's
    politics, we have to be all the more careful.

    Yeah but the anti-racism of the 50's is racism now :D

    lol

    Yeah, LOL

    There were plenty anti-racist films with yellow faces or red faces.

    ;)
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited July 3 Posts: 6,850
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    The racism in LALD is casual, but when you consider Fleming's derisory view of the civil rights movement (he saw it as a communist front), it's obvious he saw black people as inferior and apartheid necessary. The Korean jibes may have been influenced by the Korean War, it only ended five years previously.

    Yes, the Korean War might have had some influence, though in that case one would have thought that Fleming would have made a distinction between North and South Koreans. I think it's a stretch to say that Fleming had a derisory view of the civil rights movement as a communist front. Mr. Big doesn't have much to do with the 50s/60s Civil Rights movement, which was kicked off by Rosa Parks shortly after Fleming finished writing LALD. We're told by Dexter the FBI agent, who Leiter characterizes as a stuffed shirt, that if Mr. Big gets arrested there will be a race riot, and "those Voodoo drums would start beating from here to the Deep South." In other words, Mr. Big would use his status as a voodoo figurehead to get those under his thrall to make trouble on his behalf. "Race riot" was a catchall term for any violent disturbance caused by non-whites, regardless of cause. Fleming is making an obviously racist overstatement of the influence of voodoo on African Americans, but not a blanket statement on the Civil Rights movement itself.

    Not sure it was around then, but Fleming later apologised for the association.

    I think Fleming was ultimately anti-communist more than a full-on racist. We hear such associations these days, too, so it's probable.

    That's interesting. I don't think I've heard of that before. Do you happen to know where that comes from?

    I agree that Fleming wasn't a full-on hateful racist when it came to blacks. His views were more patronising in nature and are dated nowadays. It was very much the attitudes of the time and he merely reflected that in his writing. They were different times.

    Fleming was patronizing toward many groups--Blacks, Asians, women, gays. I don't think I'd like him as a person. He seems like he'd be the crank in the corner of the club, complaining about something or other.

    But damn if he didn't create something that endured far longer than his attitudes.
  • trevan007trevan007 Switzerland
    Posts: 1
    I am currently finishing OHMSS and will read YOLT next. It's been a long time since I read YOLT. Can someone please remind me if Irma Bunt dies in the novel? I'll find out myself soon, but curiosity has got me wondering.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,810
    trevan007 wrote: »
    I am currently finishing OHMSS and will read YOLT next. It's been a long time since I read YOLT. Can someone please remind me if Irma Bunt dies in the novel? I'll find out myself soon, but curiosity has got me wondering.

    It's left unclear as Bond hits her on the side of the head with his stave, knocking her out. After he kills Blofeld he escapes the castle on a helium balloon that was holding a poison garden warning banner up. The castle is then destroyed as Bond locks the natural geyser causing an eruption. Of course later continuation authors like John Pearson and Raymond Benson had Irma Bunt come back so if they are any authority she must've lived to fight another day. As it is, Fleming leaves it open. She could've died or she could've escaped the castle just in time.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,983
    echo wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    The racism in LALD is casual, but when you consider Fleming's derisory view of the civil rights movement (he saw it as a communist front), it's obvious he saw black people as inferior and apartheid necessary. The Korean jibes may have been influenced by the Korean War, it only ended five years previously.

    Yes, the Korean War might have had some influence, though in that case one would have thought that Fleming would have made a distinction between North and South Koreans. I think it's a stretch to say that Fleming had a derisory view of the civil rights movement as a communist front. Mr. Big doesn't have much to do with the 50s/60s Civil Rights movement, which was kicked off by Rosa Parks shortly after Fleming finished writing LALD. We're told by Dexter the FBI agent, who Leiter characterizes as a stuffed shirt, that if Mr. Big gets arrested there will be a race riot, and "those Voodoo drums would start beating from here to the Deep South." In other words, Mr. Big would use his status as a voodoo figurehead to get those under his thrall to make trouble on his behalf. "Race riot" was a catchall term for any violent disturbance caused by non-whites, regardless of cause. Fleming is making an obviously racist overstatement of the influence of voodoo on African Americans, but not a blanket statement on the Civil Rights movement itself.

    Not sure it was around then, but Fleming later apologised for the association.

    I think Fleming was ultimately anti-communist more than a full-on racist. We hear such associations these days, too, so it's probable.

    That's interesting. I don't think I've heard of that before. Do you happen to know where that comes from?

    I agree that Fleming wasn't a full-on hateful racist when it came to blacks. His views were more patronising in nature and are dated nowadays. It was very much the attitudes of the time and he merely reflected that in his writing. They were different times.

    Fleming was patronizing toward many groups--Blacks, Asians, women, gays. I don't think I'd like him as a person. He seems like he'd be the crank in the corner of the club, complaining about something or other.

    But damn if he didn't create something that endured far longer than his attitudes.

    Fleming's attitude was very much reflected the time he's living in, had Fleming been say, a Millennial, he wouldn't have that kind of views, it's not just Blacks and Asians, Fleming was also condescending towards Americans and viewed them as inferior or second fiddle to the British (read Diamonds Are Forever).
    One of the things that made him that way was how he viewed British (Britain) as superior (this was happened around the time of World War, so it's natural for him to feel that way).
    I think Fleming himself have quoted it that his feelings was reflected by how Britain had been affected by the way, they're almost on the brink and Fleming was like he's trying to build Britain up, especially at the time that before the war, Britain was viewed as one of the most powerful countries in the world then, then World War happened, and the country have fallen (at least from the British perspective).
    It's one of the things why Fleming made Bond hates tea (for him, it tastes like a mud and blaming it for the reason of the fall of British Empire, maybe because of the Tea Party with Washington, I don't know 😅), I mean, I liked Tea, but even that simple drink where Bond still has Political issues with and we couldn't say at all that he's discriminating Tea 😅.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,850
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    trevan007 wrote: »
    I am currently finishing OHMSS and will read YOLT next. It's been a long time since I read YOLT. Can someone please remind me if Irma Bunt dies in the novel? I'll find out myself soon, but curiosity has got me wondering.

    It's left unclear as Bond hits her on the side of the head with his stave, knocking her out. After he kills Blofeld he escapes the castle on a helium balloon that was holding a poison garden warning banner up. The castle is then destroyed as Bond locks the natural geyser causing an eruption. Of course later continuation authors like John Pearson and Raymond Benson had Irma Bunt come back so if they are any authority she must've lived to fight another day. As it is, Fleming leaves it open. She could've died or she could've escaped the castle just in time.

    It's interesting that Fleming leaves this particular death open. Has anyone read the corrected manuscripts?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,810
    echo wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    trevan007 wrote: »
    I am currently finishing OHMSS and will read YOLT next. It's been a long time since I read YOLT. Can someone please remind me if Irma Bunt dies in the novel? I'll find out myself soon, but curiosity has got me wondering.

    It's left unclear as Bond hits her on the side of the head with his stave, knocking her out. After he kills Blofeld he escapes the castle on a helium balloon that was holding a poison garden warning banner up. The castle is then destroyed as Bond locks the natural geyser causing an eruption. Of course later continuation authors like John Pearson and Raymond Benson had Irma Bunt come back so if they are any authority she must've lived to fight another day. As it is, Fleming leaves it open. She could've died or she could've escaped the castle just in time.

    It's interesting that Fleming leaves this particular death open. Has anyone read the corrected manuscripts?

    I've not read the manuscripts but I doubt Fleming would've ever had Irma Bunt survive to return in a later book. He never did that with any other character that I can recall. It seems much more a Bond continuation idea that John Gardner would have run with and one that John Pearson and Raymond Benson did run with.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,850
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    trevan007 wrote: »
    I am currently finishing OHMSS and will read YOLT next. It's been a long time since I read YOLT. Can someone please remind me if Irma Bunt dies in the novel? I'll find out myself soon, but curiosity has got me wondering.

    It's left unclear as Bond hits her on the side of the head with his stave, knocking her out. After he kills Blofeld he escapes the castle on a helium balloon that was holding a poison garden warning banner up. The castle is then destroyed as Bond locks the natural geyser causing an eruption. Of course later continuation authors like John Pearson and Raymond Benson had Irma Bunt come back so if they are any authority she must've lived to fight another day. As it is, Fleming leaves it open. She could've died or she could've escaped the castle just in time.

    It's interesting that Fleming leaves this particular death open. Has anyone read the corrected manuscripts?

    I've not read the manuscripts but I doubt Fleming would've ever had Irma Bunt survive to return in a later book. He never did that with any other character that I can recall. It seems much more a Bond continuation idea that John Gardner would have run with and one that John Pearson and Raymond Benson did run with.

    Frankly, I'm surprised Gardner didn't have Bond seduce Bunt's lovely daughter.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,810
    echo wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    trevan007 wrote: »
    I am currently finishing OHMSS and will read YOLT next. It's been a long time since I read YOLT. Can someone please remind me if Irma Bunt dies in the novel? I'll find out myself soon, but curiosity has got me wondering.

    It's left unclear as Bond hits her on the side of the head with his stave, knocking her out. After he kills Blofeld he escapes the castle on a helium balloon that was holding a poison garden warning banner up. The castle is then destroyed as Bond locks the natural geyser causing an eruption. Of course later continuation authors like John Pearson and Raymond Benson had Irma Bunt come back so if they are any authority she must've lived to fight another day. As it is, Fleming leaves it open. She could've died or she could've escaped the castle just in time.

    It's interesting that Fleming leaves this particular death open. Has anyone read the corrected manuscripts?

    I've not read the manuscripts but I doubt Fleming would've ever had Irma Bunt survive to return in a later book. He never did that with any other character that I can recall. It seems much more a Bond continuation idea that John Gardner would have run with and one that John Pearson and Raymond Benson did run with.

    Frankly, I'm surprised Gardner didn't have Bond seduce Bunt's lovely daughter.

    Gardner did have him seduce Blofeld's daughter and probably Felix's daughter so that was probably deemed enough for one novel! Still, I do like Gardner a lot (as my username testifies).
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 762
    echo wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    The racism in LALD is casual, but when you consider Fleming's derisory view of the civil rights movement (he saw it as a communist front), it's obvious he saw black people as inferior and apartheid necessary. The Korean jibes may have been influenced by the Korean War, it only ended five years previously.

    Yes, the Korean War might have had some influence, though in that case one would have thought that Fleming would have made a distinction between North and South Koreans. I think it's a stretch to say that Fleming had a derisory view of the civil rights movement as a communist front. Mr. Big doesn't have much to do with the 50s/60s Civil Rights movement, which was kicked off by Rosa Parks shortly after Fleming finished writing LALD. We're told by Dexter the FBI agent, who Leiter characterizes as a stuffed shirt, that if Mr. Big gets arrested there will be a race riot, and "those Voodoo drums would start beating from here to the Deep South." In other words, Mr. Big would use his status as a voodoo figurehead to get those under his thrall to make trouble on his behalf. "Race riot" was a catchall term for any violent disturbance caused by non-whites, regardless of cause. Fleming is making an obviously racist overstatement of the influence of voodoo on African Americans, but not a blanket statement on the Civil Rights movement itself.

    Not sure it was around then, but Fleming later apologised for the association.

    I think Fleming was ultimately anti-communist more than a full-on racist. We hear such associations these days, too, so it's probable.

    That's interesting. I don't think I've heard of that before. Do you happen to know where that comes from?

    I agree that Fleming wasn't a full-on hateful racist when it came to blacks. His views were more patronising in nature and are dated nowadays. It was very much the attitudes of the time and he merely reflected that in his writing. They were different times.

    Fleming was patronizing toward many groups--Blacks, Asians, women, gays. I don't think I'd like him as a person. He seems like he'd be the crank in the corner of the club, complaining about something or other.

    But damn if he didn't create something that endured far longer than his attitudes.

    I'd credit the films for such endurance, not the novels.
  • Posts: 2,975
    Most of the most highly regarded Bond films were either closely based on Fleming's books or copied the films that were. Every Bond film tries to copy either From Russia With Love or Goldfinger (and sometimes OHMSS). Or YOLT, which isn't based on Fleming but patterned after the previous four films in the series, which were.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited July 7 Posts: 6,850
    Yes, the films that hewed closest to Fleming--roughly, five of the first six, plus CR--are the ones that tend to be copied over and over. This is why using MR the novel makes sense for Bond 26. There is just something resonant about the Fleming DNA no matter how much it is contorted or updated. For example, while there are many things wrong with DAD, its Flemingness is an asset, not a deficit.
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Frankly, I'm surprised Gardner didn't have Bond seduce Bunt's lovely daughter.

    Gardner did have him seduce Blofeld's daughter and probably Felix's daughter so that was probably deemed enough for one novel! Still, I do like Gardner a lot (as my username testifies).

    The daughter "fetish" is a little...off-putting.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 762
    Revelator wrote: »
    Most of the most highly regarded Bond films were either closely based on Fleming's books or copied the films that were. Every Bond film tries to copy either From Russia With Love or Goldfinger (and sometimes OHMSS). Or YOLT, which isn't based on Fleming but patterned after the previous four films in the series, which were.

    What is crucially missing is the blatant politics involved in almost every Fleming novel.

    Film FRWL's villains are ultimately Spectre, not the Soviet Union and none of the Spectre plots involve them being employed by Moscow.

    There are other examples, too.

    The producers consciously removed these political intrigues and we, the Fleming estate included, should be eternally grateful they did.
  • Posts: 2,202
    Revelator wrote: »
    Most of the most highly regarded Bond films were either closely based on Fleming's books or copied the films that were. Every Bond film tries to copy either From Russia With Love or Goldfinger (and sometimes OHMSS). Or YOLT, which isn't based on Fleming but patterned after the previous four films in the series, which were.

    What is crucially missing is the blatant politics involved in almost every Fleming novel.

    Film FRWL's villains are ultimately Spectre, not the Soviet Union and none of the Spectre plots involve them being employed by Moscow.

    There are other examples, too.

    The producers consciously removed these political intrigues and we, the Fleming estate included, should be eternally grateful they did.

    Should we thank Kevin McClory for this? :D
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited July 7 Posts: 6,850
    [
    Revelator wrote: »
    Most of the most highly regarded Bond films were either closely based on Fleming's books or copied the films that were. Every Bond film tries to copy either From Russia With Love or Goldfinger (and sometimes OHMSS). Or YOLT, which isn't based on Fleming but patterned after the previous four films in the series, which were.

    What is crucially missing is the blatant politics involved in almost every Fleming novel.

    Film FRWL's villains are ultimately Spectre, not the Soviet Union and none of the Spectre plots involve them being employed by Moscow.

    There are other examples, too.

    The producers consciously removed these political intrigues and we, the Fleming estate included, should be eternally grateful they did.

    Should we thank Kevin McClory for this? :D

    Oh no, you didn't! LOL.

    Seriously, though, McClory is always painted as evil around here (even though TB and NSNA are decidedly meh)...but sainted Fleming is the one who stole (at least some of) his material!

    Yes, the trial with McClory (and the drinking and the cigarettes) probably killed Fleming...but one man still stole from the other!
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited July 7 Posts: 18,810
    echo wrote: »
    Yes, the films that hewed closest to Fleming--roughly, five of the first six, plus CR--are the ones that tend to be copied over and over. This is why using MR the novel makes sense for Bond 26. There is just something resonant about the Fleming DNA no matter how much it is contorted or updated. For example, while there are many things wrong with DAD, its Flemingness is an asset, not a deficit.
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Frankly, I'm surprised Gardner didn't have Bond seduce Bunt's lovely daughter.

    Gardner did have him seduce Blofeld's daughter and probably Felix's daughter so that was probably deemed enough for one novel! Still, I do like Gardner a lot (as my username testifies).

    The daughter "fetish" is a little...off-putting.

    I believe that I once called For Special Services "James Bond: The Next Generation" because it features the daughters of both Blofeld and Leiter. I suppose that all that was needed to make up the set was Bond's son or daughter but thankfully we only got Bond instead! Gardner clearly had a thing about using daughters as villains. His third Boysie Oakes novel, Amber Nine (1966), featured the daughter of Adolf Hitler as the villain!
  • Revelator wrote: »
    Most of the most highly regarded Bond films were either closely based on Fleming's books or copied the films that were. Every Bond film tries to copy either From Russia With Love or Goldfinger (and sometimes OHMSS). Or YOLT, which isn't based on Fleming but patterned after the previous four films in the series, which were.

    What is crucially missing is the blatant politics involved in almost every Fleming novel.

    Film FRWL's villains are ultimately Spectre, not the Soviet Union and none of the Spectre plots involve them being employed by Moscow.

    There are other examples, too.

    The producers consciously removed these political intrigues and we, the Fleming estate included, should be eternally grateful they did.

    Goldfinger and YOLT both involve Chinese interference. And anyway, the political intrigue made the stories feel more real. Yes, removing them may have helped with longevity, or world-wide consumption, but would Bond have really done worse in the Western World if SMERSH were still the villains?
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,850
    Revelator wrote: »
    Most of the most highly regarded Bond films were either closely based on Fleming's books or copied the films that were. Every Bond film tries to copy either From Russia With Love or Goldfinger (and sometimes OHMSS). Or YOLT, which isn't based on Fleming but patterned after the previous four films in the series, which were.

    What is crucially missing is the blatant politics involved in almost every Fleming novel.

    Film FRWL's villains are ultimately Spectre, not the Soviet Union and none of the Spectre plots involve them being employed by Moscow.

    There are other examples, too.

    The producers consciously removed these political intrigues and we, the Fleming estate included, should be eternally grateful they did.

    Goldfinger and YOLT both involve Chinese interference. And anyway, the political intrigue made the stories feel more real. Yes, removing them may have helped with longevity, or world-wide consumption, but would Bond have really done worse in the Western World if SMERSH were still the villains?

    A good point. I think Broccoli and Saltzman were smart to make the films as apolitical as possible...and they anticipated glasnost with Gogol!

    Interestingly, it's TLD where Gogol was supposed to have a major role (I wish he had), yet that film didn't age well in parts because of certain political decisions...
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,549
    Glidrose published Thunberball in 1961.

    Credit to Ian Fleming for SPECTRE and moving away from SMERSH and the Soviets--believe I've heard it described as Fleming getting the idea he should establish that "before peace breaks out".

  • edited 2:09am Posts: 2,975
    SMERSH itself (in Fleming's books anyway) was already a separate entity from the other Soviet branches of intelligence and government, which was part of what made it so interesting a literary creation in the first place. In CR Bond makes it very clear that his quarrel with the Soviets was not ideological but rather with SMERSH itself and its methods. Broccoli and Saltzman presumably went with SPECTRE because they anticipated screening the films in Russia and the eastern bloc countries someday, but that actually didn't bear fruit until much later. I doubt that the early Bond films would have suffered much at the box office if SMERSH had replaced SPECTRE.
  • edited 6:51am Posts: 2,202
    The first novel EON wanted to adapt was TB. They even wrote the script. It's no coincidence that the villains were SPECTRE.
  • Posts: 5,569
    I can’t see the Bond films working quite as well had they gone with SMERSH over SPECTRE. I think it would have been to the detriment of FRWL especially (the fact that it’s SPECTRE playing both the Russians and the British gives it that extra layer of suspense. Actually I’d say it improves on the book where the trap feels a bit too straightforward and Bond comes off as a bit naive at times).
  • Surely the trap relies on the same naivety that the novel does? In both adaptations, Bond and M suspect a Russian trap; and in both adaptations they decide to go through with it either way. In both adaptations Bond decides to take the train, against the conventional wisdom of getting her out as quick as possible. And in both he takes Tania at her word, when perhaps he shouldn't have.

    The SPECTRE for SMERSH change is entirely cosmetic. You could swap Blofeld for General G, make Klebb a loyal Soviet agent again and the story is the exact same as the novel (with the boat chase added and a different ending).

    While obviously films like YOLT or OHMSS require SPECTRE; DN, FRWL and GF could theoretically rely on SMERSH with no difference.
  • edited 4:25pm Posts: 5,569
    Surely the trap relies on the same naivety that the novel does? In both adaptations, Bond and M suspect a Russian trap; and in both adaptations they decide to go through with it either way. In both adaptations Bond decides to take the train, against the conventional wisdom of getting her out as quick as possible. And in both he takes Tania at her word, when perhaps he shouldn't have.

    The SPECTRE for SMERSH change is entirely cosmetic. You could swap Blofeld for General G, make Klebb a loyal Soviet agent again and the story is the exact same as the novel (with the boat chase added and a different ending).

    I think it makes a difference having a third party essentially playing puppet master to the whole thing. The film downplays Bond and M's naivety - IIRC in the book M seems more convinced Tatiana's story is genuine, and I suppose it's needed from a dramatic standpoint in order to maintain the sense that both are in the dark about the whole thing. In the film they guess it's a trap immediately, but go in knowing that they're taking a huge risk, which I think is more in character for both men and makes them come off as less daft. The audience know it's much worse than even they think, and I feel it adds to the suspense/gives us the idea Bond genuinely doesn't know what he's going to walk into. It's not a massive change in itself (although it does create quite significant differences here and there), but for me it creates a slightly different feel to the story that works better. I don't think the film would be as good as it is if they just went with SMERSH.
  • Posts: 2,202
    In the novel it was a plan to kill Bond, in the movie they seem more interested in the Lektor and damaging Bond's reputation makes less sense.
  • edited 4:43pm Posts: 5,569
    Well, in both the film and the book it's about killing Bond and causing a scandal for the purposes of revenge. There's not a major difference in that regard and the film maintains the book's plot point of Bond and Tanya being filmed in their hotel room.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,810
    In the novel it was a plan to kill Bond, in the movie they seem more interested in the Lektor and damaging Bond's reputation makes less sense.

    They were going to kill him in the film version too of course.
  • Posts: 2,202
    007HallY wrote: »
    Well, in both the film and the book it's about killing Bond and causing a scandal for the purposes of revenge. There's not a major difference in that regard.

    But Spectre wants the Lektor. In the novel, the ultimate goal is to kill Bond, and damaging Bond's reputation makes more sense for a rival secret service than for someone as apolitical as SPECTRE.
  • edited 4:54pm Posts: 5,569
    007HallY wrote: »
    Well, in both the film and the book it's about killing Bond and causing a scandal for the purposes of revenge. There's not a major difference in that regard.

    But Spectre wants the Lektor. In the novel, the ultimate goal is to kill Bond, and damaging Bond's reputation makes more sense for a rival secret service than for someone as apolitical as SPECTRE.

    I'd say it gives SPECTRE a pretty tangible motivation in the form of a McGuffin. They're going all in trying to attain the Lektor and, during the process, kill Bond (in fact causing the scandal would essentially cover SPECTRE's tracks here - Grant has a fake letter saying Tanya is going to send the film to the press unless Bond marries her for helping him get the Lektor. It actually strengthens that plot point somewhat and gives it more relevance). The Russians in the book are being slightly daft too by genuinely using their decoding machine as a honey trap, even if they booby trap it. At the very least it comes off as them taking a great risk, which doesn't make Kronsteen come across as quite the master tactician he is in the film.
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