›

Which Bond novel are you currently reading?

1…798081828385»

Comments

  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,804
    AnotherZorinStooge wrote: »
    DEKE_RIVERS wrote: »
    AnotherZorinStooge wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    AnotherZorinStooge wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    AnotherZorinStooge wrote: »
    The racism in LALD is casual, but when you consider Fleming's derisory view of the civil rights movement (he saw it as a communist front), it's obvious he saw black people as inferior and apartheid necessary. The Korean jibes may have been influenced by the Korean War, it only ended five years previously.

    Yes, the Korean War might have had some influence, though in that case one would have thought that Fleming would have made a distinction between North and South Koreans. I think it's a stretch to say that Fleming had a derisory view of the civil rights movement as a communist front. Mr. Big doesn't have much to do with the 50s/60s Civil Rights movement, which was kicked off by Rosa Parks shortly after Fleming finished writing LALD. We're told by Dexter the FBI agent, who Leiter characterizes as a stuffed shirt, that if Mr. Big gets arrested there will be a race riot, and "those Voodoo drums would start beating from here to the Deep South." In other words, Mr. Big would use his status as a voodoo figurehead to get those under his thrall to make trouble on his behalf. "Race riot" was a catchall term for any violent disturbance caused by non-whites, regardless of cause. Fleming is making an obviously racist overstatement of the influence of voodoo on African Americans, but not a blanket statement on the Civil Rights movement itself.

    Not sure it was around then, but Fleming later apologised for the association.

    I think Fleming was ultimately anti-communist more than a full-on racist. We hear such associations these days, too, so it's probable.

    That's interesting. I don't think I've heard of that before. Do you happen to know where that comes from?

    I agree that Fleming wasn't a full-on hateful racist when it came to blacks. His views were more patronising in nature and are dated nowadays. It was very much the attitudes of the time and he merely reflected that in his writing. They were different times.

    Racist attitudes of the time are still racist attitudes, and it's important we remember anti-racism was a 'thing' back then, too.

    There is no justification for being racist. Certainly jot the zeitgeist and when we factor Fleming's
    politics, we have to be all the more careful.

    Yeah but the anti-racism of the 50's is racism now :D

    lol

    Given time it'll be racist to even talk about racism.
  • DEKE_RIVERSDEKE_RIVERS
    edited July 3 Posts: 2,194
    AnotherZorinStooge wrote: »
    DEKE_RIVERS wrote: »
    AnotherZorinStooge wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    AnotherZorinStooge wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    AnotherZorinStooge wrote: »
    The racism in LALD is casual, but when you consider Fleming's derisory view of the civil rights movement (he saw it as a communist front), it's obvious he saw black people as inferior and apartheid necessary. The Korean jibes may have been influenced by the Korean War, it only ended five years previously.

    Yes, the Korean War might have had some influence, though in that case one would have thought that Fleming would have made a distinction between North and South Koreans. I think it's a stretch to say that Fleming had a derisory view of the civil rights movement as a communist front. Mr. Big doesn't have much to do with the 50s/60s Civil Rights movement, which was kicked off by Rosa Parks shortly after Fleming finished writing LALD. We're told by Dexter the FBI agent, who Leiter characterizes as a stuffed shirt, that if Mr. Big gets arrested there will be a race riot, and "those Voodoo drums would start beating from here to the Deep South." In other words, Mr. Big would use his status as a voodoo figurehead to get those under his thrall to make trouble on his behalf. "Race riot" was a catchall term for any violent disturbance caused by non-whites, regardless of cause. Fleming is making an obviously racist overstatement of the influence of voodoo on African Americans, but not a blanket statement on the Civil Rights movement itself.

    Not sure it was around then, but Fleming later apologised for the association.

    I think Fleming was ultimately anti-communist more than a full-on racist. We hear such associations these days, too, so it's probable.

    That's interesting. I don't think I've heard of that before. Do you happen to know where that comes from?

    I agree that Fleming wasn't a full-on hateful racist when it came to blacks. His views were more patronising in nature and are dated nowadays. It was very much the attitudes of the time and he merely reflected that in his writing. They were different times.

    Racist attitudes of the time are still racist attitudes, and it's important we remember anti-racism was a 'thing' back then, too.

    There is no justification for being racist. Certainly jot the zeitgeist and when we factor Fleming's
    politics, we have to be all the more careful.

    Yeah but the anti-racism of the 50's is racism now :D

    lol

    Yeah, LOL

    There were plenty anti-racist films with yellow faces or red faces.

    ;)
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited July 3 Posts: 6,840
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    AnotherZorinStooge wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    AnotherZorinStooge wrote: »
    The racism in LALD is casual, but when you consider Fleming's derisory view of the civil rights movement (he saw it as a communist front), it's obvious he saw black people as inferior and apartheid necessary. The Korean jibes may have been influenced by the Korean War, it only ended five years previously.

    Yes, the Korean War might have had some influence, though in that case one would have thought that Fleming would have made a distinction between North and South Koreans. I think it's a stretch to say that Fleming had a derisory view of the civil rights movement as a communist front. Mr. Big doesn't have much to do with the 50s/60s Civil Rights movement, which was kicked off by Rosa Parks shortly after Fleming finished writing LALD. We're told by Dexter the FBI agent, who Leiter characterizes as a stuffed shirt, that if Mr. Big gets arrested there will be a race riot, and "those Voodoo drums would start beating from here to the Deep South." In other words, Mr. Big would use his status as a voodoo figurehead to get those under his thrall to make trouble on his behalf. "Race riot" was a catchall term for any violent disturbance caused by non-whites, regardless of cause. Fleming is making an obviously racist overstatement of the influence of voodoo on African Americans, but not a blanket statement on the Civil Rights movement itself.

    Not sure it was around then, but Fleming later apologised for the association.

    I think Fleming was ultimately anti-communist more than a full-on racist. We hear such associations these days, too, so it's probable.

    That's interesting. I don't think I've heard of that before. Do you happen to know where that comes from?

    I agree that Fleming wasn't a full-on hateful racist when it came to blacks. His views were more patronising in nature and are dated nowadays. It was very much the attitudes of the time and he merely reflected that in his writing. They were different times.

    Fleming was patronizing toward many groups--Blacks, Asians, women, gays. I don't think I'd like him as a person. He seems like he'd be the crank in the corner of the club, complaining about something or other.

    But damn if he didn't create something that endured far longer than his attitudes.
  • trevan007trevan007 Switzerland
    Posts: 1
    I am currently finishing OHMSS and will read YOLT next. It's been a long time since I read YOLT. Can someone please remind me if Irma Bunt dies in the novel? I'll find out myself soon, but curiosity has got me wondering.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,804
    trevan007 wrote: »
    I am currently finishing OHMSS and will read YOLT next. It's been a long time since I read YOLT. Can someone please remind me if Irma Bunt dies in the novel? I'll find out myself soon, but curiosity has got me wondering.

    It's left unclear as Bond hits her on the side of the head with his stave, knocking her out. After he kills Blofeld he escapes the castle on a helium balloon that was holding a poison garden warning banner up. The castle is then destroyed as Bond locks the natural geyser causing an eruption. Of course later continuation authors like John Pearson and Raymond Benson had Irma Bunt come back so if they are any authority she must've lived to fight another day. As it is, Fleming leaves it open. She could've died or she could've escaped the castle just in time.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,981
    echo wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    AnotherZorinStooge wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    AnotherZorinStooge wrote: »
    The racism in LALD is casual, but when you consider Fleming's derisory view of the civil rights movement (he saw it as a communist front), it's obvious he saw black people as inferior and apartheid necessary. The Korean jibes may have been influenced by the Korean War, it only ended five years previously.

    Yes, the Korean War might have had some influence, though in that case one would have thought that Fleming would have made a distinction between North and South Koreans. I think it's a stretch to say that Fleming had a derisory view of the civil rights movement as a communist front. Mr. Big doesn't have much to do with the 50s/60s Civil Rights movement, which was kicked off by Rosa Parks shortly after Fleming finished writing LALD. We're told by Dexter the FBI agent, who Leiter characterizes as a stuffed shirt, that if Mr. Big gets arrested there will be a race riot, and "those Voodoo drums would start beating from here to the Deep South." In other words, Mr. Big would use his status as a voodoo figurehead to get those under his thrall to make trouble on his behalf. "Race riot" was a catchall term for any violent disturbance caused by non-whites, regardless of cause. Fleming is making an obviously racist overstatement of the influence of voodoo on African Americans, but not a blanket statement on the Civil Rights movement itself.

    Not sure it was around then, but Fleming later apologised for the association.

    I think Fleming was ultimately anti-communist more than a full-on racist. We hear such associations these days, too, so it's probable.

    That's interesting. I don't think I've heard of that before. Do you happen to know where that comes from?

    I agree that Fleming wasn't a full-on hateful racist when it came to blacks. His views were more patronising in nature and are dated nowadays. It was very much the attitudes of the time and he merely reflected that in his writing. They were different times.

    Fleming was patronizing toward many groups--Blacks, Asians, women, gays. I don't think I'd like him as a person. He seems like he'd be the crank in the corner of the club, complaining about something or other.

    But damn if he didn't create something that endured far longer than his attitudes.

    Fleming's attitude was very much reflected the time he's living in, had Fleming been say, a Millennial, he wouldn't have that kind of views, it's not just Blacks and Asians, Fleming was also condescending towards Americans and viewed them as inferior or second fiddle to the British (read Diamonds Are Forever).
    One of the things that made him that way was how he viewed British (Britain) as superior (this was happened around the time of World War, so it's natural for him to feel that way).
    I think Fleming himself have quoted it that his feelings was reflected by how Britain had been affected by the way, they're almost on the brink and Fleming was like he's trying to build Britain up, especially at the time that before the war, Britain was viewed as one of the most powerful countries in the world then, then World War happened, and the country have fallen (at least from the British perspective).
    It's one of the things why Fleming made Bond hates tea (for him, it tastes like a mud and blaming it for the reason of the fall of British Empire, maybe because of the Tea Party with Washington, I don't know 😅), I mean, I liked Tea, but even that simple drink where Bond still has Political issues with and we couldn't say at all that he's discriminating Tea 😅.
Sign In or Register to comment.