Which Bond novel are you currently reading?

Dragonpol

AnotherZorinStooge wrote: »

DEKE_RIVERS wrote: »

AnotherZorinStooge wrote: »

Dragonpol wrote: »

AnotherZorinStooge wrote: »

Revelator wrote: »

AnotherZorinStooge wrote: »

The racism in LALD is casual, but when you consider Fleming's derisory view of the civil rights movement (he saw it as a communist front), it's obvious he saw black people as inferior and apartheid necessary. The Korean jibes may have been influenced by the Korean War, it only ended five years previously.

Yes, the Korean War might have had some influence, though in that case one would have thought that Fleming would have made a distinction between North and South Koreans. I think it's a stretch to say that Fleming had a derisory view of the civil rights movement as a communist front. Mr. Big doesn't have much to do with the 50s/60s Civil Rights movement, which was kicked off by Rosa Parks shortly after Fleming finished writing LALD. We're told by Dexter the FBI agent, who Leiter characterizes as a stuffed shirt, that if Mr. Big gets arrested there will be a race riot, and "those Voodoo drums would start beating from here to the Deep South." In other words, Mr. Big would use his status as a voodoo figurehead to get those under his thrall to make trouble on his behalf. "Race riot" was a catchall term for any violent disturbance caused by non-whites, regardless of cause. Fleming is making an obviously racist overstatement of the influence of voodoo on African Americans, but not a blanket statement on the Civil Rights movement itself.

Not sure it was around then, but Fleming later apologised for the association.

I think Fleming was ultimately anti-communist more than a full-on racist. We hear such associations these days, too, so it's probable.

That's interesting. I don't think I've heard of that before. Do you happen to know where that comes from?

I agree that Fleming wasn't a full-on hateful racist when it came to blacks. His views were more patronising in nature and are dated nowadays. It was very much the attitudes of the time and he merely reflected that in his writing. They were different times.

Racist attitudes of the time are still racist attitudes, and it's important we remember anti-racism was a 'thing' back then, too.

There is no justification for being racist. Certainly jot the zeitgeist and when we factor Fleming's
politics, we have to be all the more careful.

Yeah but the anti-racism of the 50's is racism now :D

lol

Given time it'll be racist to even talk about racism.

DEKE_RIVERS

AnotherZorinStooge wrote: »

DEKE_RIVERS wrote: »

AnotherZorinStooge wrote: »

Dragonpol wrote: »

AnotherZorinStooge wrote: »

Revelator wrote: »

AnotherZorinStooge wrote: »

The racism in LALD is casual, but when you consider Fleming's derisory view of the civil rights movement (he saw it as a communist front), it's obvious he saw black people as inferior and apartheid necessary. The Korean jibes may have been influenced by the Korean War, it only ended five years previously.

Yes, the Korean War might have had some influence, though in that case one would have thought that Fleming would have made a distinction between North and South Koreans. I think it's a stretch to say that Fleming had a derisory view of the civil rights movement as a communist front. Mr. Big doesn't have much to do with the 50s/60s Civil Rights movement, which was kicked off by Rosa Parks shortly after Fleming finished writing LALD. We're told by Dexter the FBI agent, who Leiter characterizes as a stuffed shirt, that if Mr. Big gets arrested there will be a race riot, and "those Voodoo drums would start beating from here to the Deep South." In other words, Mr. Big would use his status as a voodoo figurehead to get those under his thrall to make trouble on his behalf. "Race riot" was a catchall term for any violent disturbance caused by non-whites, regardless of cause. Fleming is making an obviously racist overstatement of the influence of voodoo on African Americans, but not a blanket statement on the Civil Rights movement itself.

Not sure it was around then, but Fleming later apologised for the association.

I think Fleming was ultimately anti-communist more than a full-on racist. We hear such associations these days, too, so it's probable.

That's interesting. I don't think I've heard of that before. Do you happen to know where that comes from?

I agree that Fleming wasn't a full-on hateful racist when it came to blacks. His views were more patronising in nature and are dated nowadays. It was very much the attitudes of the time and he merely reflected that in his writing. They were different times.

Racist attitudes of the time are still racist attitudes, and it's important we remember anti-racism was a 'thing' back then, too.

There is no justification for being racist. Certainly jot the zeitgeist and when we factor Fleming's
politics, we have to be all the more careful.

Yeah but the anti-racism of the 50's is racism now :D

lol

Yeah, LOL

There were plenty anti-racist films with yellow faces or red faces.

;)

echo

Dragonpol wrote: »

AnotherZorinStooge wrote: »

Revelator wrote: »

AnotherZorinStooge wrote: »

The racism in LALD is casual, but when you consider Fleming's derisory view of the civil rights movement (he saw it as a communist front), it's obvious he saw black people as inferior and apartheid necessary. The Korean jibes may have been influenced by the Korean War, it only ended five years previously.

Yes, the Korean War might have had some influence, though in that case one would have thought that Fleming would have made a distinction between North and South Koreans. I think it's a stretch to say that Fleming had a derisory view of the civil rights movement as a communist front. Mr. Big doesn't have much to do with the 50s/60s Civil Rights movement, which was kicked off by Rosa Parks shortly after Fleming finished writing LALD. We're told by Dexter the FBI agent, who Leiter characterizes as a stuffed shirt, that if Mr. Big gets arrested there will be a race riot, and "those Voodoo drums would start beating from here to the Deep South." In other words, Mr. Big would use his status as a voodoo figurehead to get those under his thrall to make trouble on his behalf. "Race riot" was a catchall term for any violent disturbance caused by non-whites, regardless of cause. Fleming is making an obviously racist overstatement of the influence of voodoo on African Americans, but not a blanket statement on the Civil Rights movement itself.

Not sure it was around then, but Fleming later apologised for the association.

I think Fleming was ultimately anti-communist more than a full-on racist. We hear such associations these days, too, so it's probable.

That's interesting. I don't think I've heard of that before. Do you happen to know where that comes from?

I agree that Fleming wasn't a full-on hateful racist when it came to blacks. His views were more patronising in nature and are dated nowadays. It was very much the attitudes of the time and he merely reflected that in his writing. They were different times.

Fleming was patronizing toward many groups--Blacks, Asians, women, gays. I don't think I'd like him as a person. He seems like he'd be the crank in the corner of the club, complaining about something or other.

But damn if he didn't create something that endured far longer than his attitudes.