Which Bond novel are you currently reading?

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  • Yes, I’ve always found Big to be a great villain. His boredom with life channeled into uber inventive criminal enterprises both made for exciting setpieces and fun characterization. He’s also a good foil for where Bond would be later in the series as he also battles with being overtaken by, as Fleming calls it, “accidie”.

    I think he's a formidable villain for Bond. You really feel the danger Bond and Solitaire are in as they travel to Florida, thanks to Mr Big's far reaching network of informants and spies.

    Fleming describes train journeys so well

    Really enjoyed re-reading it...

    Yeah I’ve always enjoyed LALD. It’s true the racial elements sometimes get in the way, but overall I think it’s the most exciting of the more travelogue focused Bond books, and features a bit more brutal action than a lot of them. I especially love everything from Jamaica to the climax, it’s shame that whole chunk of the book hasn’t been lifted wholesale by the movies because it would make for one hell of a third act.

    Absolutely. The scenes they took from the novel in LTK didn't really do it for me. Although the keel haul sequence in FYEO was very well done.

    I like the fact that Fleming is obviously very fond of his character Quarrel and brought him back for Dr No. Strangways also turns up in this and became the catalyst for the events in that book.

    Yeah I consider Dr. No to be a sort of spiritual follow up to LALD. In addition to the recurring characters and Jamaica setting it also shares the pulpier swashbuckling tone of LALD, trading the Voodoo cult and pirate gold for No’s Fu Manchu-esque supervillain and over the top obstacle course. Both rate very highly on the pure entertainment scale of the Bond novels for me.
  • Live And Let Die.... Absolutely love Fleming's writing in this. His descriptions of Bond and Leiter's evening shenanigans in Harlem are so detailed and drip with atmosphere. Love it!

    I also like Fleming's creation of Mr Big, as the first successful black master criminal. Who turns out to be a formidable opponent for Bond.

    Also cool are Fleming's descriptions of Mr Big's skilful operation and it's far reaching dominion over his community.

    I only intended to read a couple of chapters while enjoying a beer in the garden. But damn if i'm not going to read this all over again!

    Couldn't get past the racism, personally.

    I think the racism in LALD is a bit different to that in say GF. Fleming doesn't really dislike Black people; he says Bond has a natural affinity for them, M seems to praise "their rise" in the world, and Bond calls them orderly chaps. The problem is that Fleming sees them as other and inferior; some of his previous language comes off as patronising, and he also refers to Quarrel's natural servility to Bond.

    However, I don't think there's any tinge of malice in the novel, unlike the rather cruel depiction of Oddjob of an ogre and representative of all Koreans.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 749
    Live And Let Die.... Absolutely love Fleming's writing in this. His descriptions of Bond and Leiter's evening shenanigans in Harlem are so detailed and drip with atmosphere. Love it!

    I also like Fleming's creation of Mr Big, as the first successful black master criminal. Who turns out to be a formidable opponent for Bond.

    Also cool are Fleming's descriptions of Mr Big's skilful operation and it's far reaching dominion over his community.

    I only intended to read a couple of chapters while enjoying a beer in the garden. But damn if i'm not going to read this all over again!

    Couldn't get past the racism, personally.

    I think the racism in LALD is a bit different to that in say GF. Fleming doesn't really dislike Black people; he says Bond has a natural affinity for them, M seems to praise "their rise" in the world, and Bond calls them orderly chaps. The problem is that Fleming sees them as other and inferior; some of his previous language comes off as patronising, and he also refers to Quarrel's natural servility to Bond.

    However, I don't think there's any tinge of malice in the novel, unlike the rather cruel depiction of Oddjob of an ogre and representative of all Koreans.

    Yes, gf was as bad as lald on the racism score.
  • No, my whole point is that if you had to drop one because of racism, it'd be GF and not LALD. LALD is ignorance (easy to get past), and GF is malice (harder to get past)
  • I agree that LALD is more paternal racism vs GF’s malicious variant, but I think it’s best not to split hairs on which brand of thinking is more harmful. But, while we’re comparing the two, I think points go to LALD regardless because I find it to be a significantly more thrilling book than GF.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 749
    I agree that LALD is more paternal racism vs GF’s malicious variant, but I think it’s best not to split hairs on which brand of thinking is more harmful. But, while we’re comparing the two, I think points go to LALD regardless because I find it to be a significantly more thrilling book than GF.

    The two are simply racist.

    LALD is the better novel, though.
  • I agree that LALD is more paternal racism vs GF’s malicious variant, but I think it’s best not to split hairs on which brand of thinking is more harmful. But, while we’re comparing the two, I think points go to LALD regardless because I find it to be a significantly more thrilling book than GF.

    The two are simply racist.

    Yes, that’s essentially what I was getting at. At the end of the day racist thinking is racist thinking no matter how you split the hairs.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 749
    I agree that LALD is more paternal racism vs GF’s malicious variant, but I think it’s best not to split hairs on which brand of thinking is more harmful. But, while we’re comparing the two, I think points go to LALD regardless because I find it to be a significantly more thrilling book than GF.

    The two are simply racist.

    Yes, that’s essentially what I was getting at. At the end of the day racist thinking is racist thinking no matter how you split the hairs.

    I agreed with SomethingThatAteHim
  • edited July 1 Posts: 2,971
    I think the racism in LALD is a bit different to that in say GF. Fleming doesn't really dislike Black people...The problem is that Fleming sees them as other and inferior; some of his previous language comes off as patronising...However, I don't think there's any tinge of malice in the novel, unlike the rather cruel depiction of Oddjob of an ogre and representative of all Koreans.

    Correct. At the end of long conversation between the black couple (cut from the 2023 editions) Bond says "Seems they’re interested in much the same things as everyone else—sex, having fun, and keeping up with the Joneses. Thank God they’re not genteel about it." In other words, these people might look and sound exotic to me, but in the end they're like all other people.

    Fleming's attitude was likely similar to what Felix Leiter tells Bond: "I like the negroes and they know it somehow. I used to be a bit of an aficionado of Harlem. Wrote a few pieces on Dixieland Jazz for the Amsterdam News, one of the local papers. Did a series for the North American Newspaper Alliance on the negro theatre about the time Orson Welles put on his Macbeth with an all-negro cast at the Lafayette. So I know my way about up there. And I admire the way they’re getting on in the world, though God knows I can’t see the end of it."

    Fleming's treatment is obviously patronizing, but that's not surprising for someone who practically believed God was an Englishman, and who treated all nations outside the UK as inferior. In his own interactions with African Americans Bond himself is usually courteous, whereas in Goldfinger Bond intends on "putting Oddjob and any other Korean firmly in his place, which, in Bond's estimation, was rather lower than apes in the mammalian hierarchy." Why Fleming/Bond is so antagonistic toward Koreans is never satisfactorily explained. We're told that they served as guards for Japanese prison camps during WWII, but the Koreans also suffered greatly at the hands of the Japanese. Yet in YOLT Fleming treats the Japanese, whose army behaved far more badly in the war, far more positively than the Koreans. The issue remains a mystery. In any case, there is much to be learned from a detailed examination of the differing racial attitudes in the books.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 749
    Revelator wrote: »
    I think the racism in LALD is a bit different to that in say GF. Fleming doesn't really dislike Black people...The problem is that Fleming sees them as other and inferior; some of his previous language comes off as patronising...However, I don't think there's any tinge of malice in the novel, unlike the rather cruel depiction of Oddjob of an ogre and representative of all Koreans.

    Correct. At the end of long conversation between the black couple (cut from the 2023 editions) Bond says "Seems they’re interested in much the same things as everyone else—sex, having fun, and keeping up with the Joneses. Thank God they’re not genteel about it." In other words, these people might look and sound exotic to me, but in the end they're like all other people.

    Fleming's attitude was likely similar to what Felix Leiter tells Bond: "I like the negroes and they know it somehow. I used to be a bit of an aficionado of Harlem. Wrote a few pieces on Dixieland Jazz for the Amsterdam News, one of the local papers. Did a series for the North American Newspaper Alliance on the negro theatre about the time Orson Welles put on his Macbeth with an all-negro cast at the Lafayette. So I know my way about up there. And I admire the way they’re getting on in the world, though God knows I can’t see the end of it."

    Fleming's treatment is obviously patronizing, but that's not surprising for someone who practically believed God was an Englishman, and who treated all nations outside the UK as inferior. In his own interactions with African Americans Bond himself is usually courteous, whereas in Goldfinger Bond intends on "putting Oddjob and any other Korean firmly in his place, which, in Bond's estimation, was rather lower than apes in the mammalian hierarchy." Why Fleming/Bond is so antagonistic toward Koreans is never satisfactorily explained. We're told that they served as guards for Japanese prison camps during WWII, but the Koreans also suffered greatly at the hands of the Japanese. Yet in YOLT Fleming treats the Japanese, whose army behaved far more badly in the war, far more positively than the Koreans. The issue remains a mystery. In any case, there is much to be learned from a detailed examination of the differing racial attitudes in the books.

    The racism in LALD is casual, but when you consider Fleming's derisory view of the civil rights movement (he saw it as a communist front), it's obvious he saw black people as inferior and apartheid necessary.

    The Korean jibes may have been influenced by the Korean War, it only ended five years previously.

  • edited July 1 Posts: 2,971
    The racism in LALD is casual, but when you consider Fleming's derisory view of the civil rights movement (he saw it as a communist front), it's obvious he saw black people as inferior and apartheid necessary. The Korean jibes may have been influenced by the Korean War, it only ended five years previously.

    Yes, the Korean War might have had some influence, though in that case one would have thought that Fleming would have made a distinction between North and South Koreans. I think it's a stretch to say that Fleming had a derisory view of the civil rights movement as a communist front. Mr. Big doesn't have much to do with the 50s/60s Civil Rights movement, which was kicked off by Rosa Parks shortly after Fleming finished writing LALD. We're told by Dexter the FBI agent, who Leiter characterizes as a stuffed shirt, that if Mr. Big gets arrested there will be a race riot, and "those Voodoo drums would start beating from here to the Deep South." In other words, Mr. Big would use his status as a voodoo figurehead to get those under his thrall to make trouble on his behalf. "Race riot" was a catchall term for any violent disturbance caused by non-whites, regardless of cause. Fleming is making an obviously racist overstatement of the influence of voodoo on African Americans, but not a blanket statement on the Civil Rights movement itself.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 749
    Revelator wrote: »
    The racism in LALD is casual, but when you consider Fleming's derisory view of the civil rights movement (he saw it as a communist front), it's obvious he saw black people as inferior and apartheid necessary. The Korean jibes may have been influenced by the Korean War, it only ended five years previously.

    Yes, the Korean War might have had some influence, though in that case one would have thought that Fleming would have made a distinction between North and South Koreans. I think it's a stretch to say that Fleming had a derisory view of the civil rights movement as a communist front. Mr. Big doesn't have much to do with the 50s/60s Civil Rights movement, which was kicked off by Rosa Parks shortly after Fleming finished writing LALD. We're told by Dexter the FBI agent, who Leiter characterizes as a stuffed shirt, that if Mr. Big gets arrested there will be a race riot, and "those Voodoo drums would start beating from here to the Deep South." In other words, Mr. Big would use his status as a voodoo figurehead to get those under his thrall to make trouble on his behalf. "Race riot" was a catchall term for any violent disturbance caused by non-whites, regardless of cause. Fleming is making an obviously racist overstatement of the influence of voodoo on African Americans, but not a blanket statement on the Civil Rights movement itself.

    Not sure it was around then, but Fleming later apologised for the association.

    I think Fleming was ultimately anti-communist more than a full-on racist. We hear such associations these days, too, so it's probable.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 5,088
    Yes, I’ve always found Big to be a great villain. His boredom with life channeled into uber inventive criminal enterprises both made for exciting setpieces and fun characterization. He’s also a good foil for where Bond would be later in the series as he also battles with being overtaken by, as Fleming calls it, “accidie”.

    I think he's a formidable villain for Bond. You really feel the danger Bond and Solitaire are in as they travel to Florida, thanks to Mr Big's far reaching network of informants and spies.

    Fleming describes train journeys so well

    Really enjoyed re-reading it...

    Yes, Mr. Big is one villain that I could see coming back, in a novel, film or video game. He did come back (briefly) for Dynamite Comics' Big Things.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,797
    Revelator wrote: »
    The racism in LALD is casual, but when you consider Fleming's derisory view of the civil rights movement (he saw it as a communist front), it's obvious he saw black people as inferior and apartheid necessary. The Korean jibes may have been influenced by the Korean War, it only ended five years previously.

    Yes, the Korean War might have had some influence, though in that case one would have thought that Fleming would have made a distinction between North and South Koreans. I think it's a stretch to say that Fleming had a derisory view of the civil rights movement as a communist front. Mr. Big doesn't have much to do with the 50s/60s Civil Rights movement, which was kicked off by Rosa Parks shortly after Fleming finished writing LALD. We're told by Dexter the FBI agent, who Leiter characterizes as a stuffed shirt, that if Mr. Big gets arrested there will be a race riot, and "those Voodoo drums would start beating from here to the Deep South." In other words, Mr. Big would use his status as a voodoo figurehead to get those under his thrall to make trouble on his behalf. "Race riot" was a catchall term for any violent disturbance caused by non-whites, regardless of cause. Fleming is making an obviously racist overstatement of the influence of voodoo on African Americans, but not a blanket statement on the Civil Rights movement itself.

    Not sure it was around then, but Fleming later apologised for the association.

    I think Fleming was ultimately anti-communist more than a full-on racist. We hear such associations these days, too, so it's probable.

    That's interesting. I don't think I've heard of that before. Do you happen to know where that comes from?

    I agree that Fleming wasn't a full-on hateful racist when it came to blacks. His views were more patronising in nature and are dated nowadays. It was very much the attitudes of the time and he merely reflected that in his writing. They were different times.
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