Wait...was the ending of NTTD foreshadowed nearly a decade ago? (SPOILERS)

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  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,452
    mtm wrote: »
    I think it's a fun little detail that Tobias Menzies (Villiers) is the only actor credited in the opening titles of Casino Royale whose character doesn't eventually die in CR or the later Craig films.

    I’ve never noticed that before 😉
  • Posts: 2,212
    Three blind mice here and there
    Three blind mice everywhere
    Searching all around for the cat
    All over Kingston town pitter pat
    They got the carving knife
    To cut the pussycat's life
    The puss will get the knife for triflin
    with three blind mice

    Since we're reading so much into lyrics, I'm thinking the demise of that cat Bond was predicted as far back as Dr. No.
  • Posts: 15,819
    mtm wrote: »
    I think it's a fun little detail that Tobias Menzies (Villiers) is the only actor credited in the opening titles of Casino Royale whose character doesn't eventually die in CR or the later Craig films.

    I always wanted to know what happened to him. Station agent somewhere?

    I have been pondering on writing fanfics set between QOS and SF and have Villiers featured in some capacity. Maybe in CR, he was too much of a comic relief character (as far as one could be, given the movie that was CR), to suffer a tragic end in subsequent films anyway?
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited June 25 Posts: 4,633
    Benny wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think it's a fun little detail that Tobias Menzies (Villiers) is the only actor credited in the opening titles of Casino Royale whose character doesn't eventually die in CR or the later Craig films.

    I’ve never noticed that before 😉

    He died in QOS.. Greene showing his death body to Camile

    Quantum-of-Solace-0518.jpg

    This moment in CR predict his and Bond death, when look to death Solange. Something you can look back to after there death, like you know Felix is seen at start of Spectre.

    70c67bcb68994c07b41f5f8f5fc951f4f51d9332.jpg

    It are Bond take his sun glaces of as moment not being Blind, take a good look you are next.

    Casino-Royale-0631.jpg

    Throwing ''Sand In The Eyes'', i think there also foreshadowed what wil happen after NTTD.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 15,213
    =)) M_Balje

    Villiers had enough of M whinging about Bond and then seeing the (grand total in pounds) collateral damage caused by Bond.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    Posts: 658
    No I disagree. The films as they exist tell the tale.

    Does not depend on what happened behind the scenes during the production or real world developments. Or the original intent, which we can't actually know ourselves.

    When Chris Cornell screams "Are you willing to die?!?" at Craig Bond in the titles of Casino Royale, that plays out as a common theme across the films to a conclusion. And it exists as foreshadowing.

    I think you are misinterpreting the song.
    The title is "You Know My Name" and it's sung in the first person
    In the lyrics Chris Cornell is James Bond and he is singing to every Bond villain, i.e is the villain willing to die, which is what Cornell implies will happen if he chooses to mess with Cornell-Bond.

    Wikipedia says

    Cornell said, "It is difficult, I think, to write lyrics for a character, so really I just kind of wandered around for about a month not thinking about it too much, until I sort of formulated some idea of a way that I could approach it, where I'm kind of relating to what's in the character in the movie. And because this particular Bond is very edgy, but also has a lot of emotional depth, it's a lot easier."

    The lyrics try to illustrate Bond's psyche in Casino Royale, described by Cornell as a conflicted and tough spy with more emotional depth, not the "superconfident, seemingly invincible, winking kinda ladies' man superspy" of the previous incarnations.[12] Cornell tried to focus on the existential dilemmas and possible sacrifices of secret agents: "There's an isolation in that; the stakes are very high. I've done a lot of living in my 42 years, and it wasn't hard for me to relate to that."[14] The song was also an introduction to the character, even though he has been in many previous movies—hence the title "You Know My Name"—dealing with Bond's actions such as his first assassination, "introducing himself to what may be the rest of his life and how he will live it and what it will mean."

    Cornell did not put the film's title in the lyrics, because he "couldn't imagine it fitting into a song lyric that would come out of my mouth". And he jokingly stated "Casino Royale didn't make a good rock title, but I would write a song named "Octopussy" just for fun".

    hq720.jpg?sqp=-oaymwE7CK4FEIIDSFryq4qpAy0IARUAAAAAGAElAADIQj0AgKJD8AEB-AH-CYAC0AWKAgwIABABGEYgXChlMA8=&rs=AOn4CLDMvenwA26JQwaDoEhrqYm8puEEsw
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,533
    Seve wrote: »
    No I disagree. The films as they exist tell the tale.

    Does not depend on what happened behind the scenes during the production or real world developments. Or the original intent, which we can't actually know ourselves.

    When Chris Cornell screams "Are you willing to die?!?" at Craig Bond in the titles of Casino Royale, that plays out as a common theme across the films to a conclusion. And it exists as foreshadowing.

    I think you are misinterpreting the song.
    The title is "You Know My Name" and it's sung in the first person
    In the lyrics Chris Cornell is James Bond and he is singing to every Bond villain, i.e is the villain willing to die, which is what Cornell implies will happen if he chooses to mess with Cornell-Bond.

    Wikipedia says

    Cornell said, "It is difficult, I think, to write lyrics for a character, so really I just kind of wandered around for about a month not thinking about it too much, until I sort of formulated some idea of a way that I could approach it, where I'm kind of relating to what's in the character in the movie. And because this particular Bond is very edgy, but also has a lot of emotional depth, it's a lot easier."

    The lyrics try to illustrate Bond's psyche in Casino Royale, described by Cornell as a conflicted and tough spy with more emotional depth, not the "superconfident, seemingly invincible, winking kinda ladies' man superspy" of the previous incarnations.[12] Cornell tried to focus on the existential dilemmas and possible sacrifices of secret agents: "There's an isolation in that; the stakes are very high. I've done a lot of living in my 42 years, and it wasn't hard for me to relate to that."[14] The song was also an introduction to the character, even though he has been in many previous movies—hence the title "You Know My Name"—dealing with Bond's actions such as his first assassination, "introducing himself to what may be the rest of his life and how he will live it and what it will mean."

    Cornell did not put the film's title in the lyrics, because he "couldn't imagine it fitting into a song lyric that would come out of my mouth". And he jokingly stated "Casino Royale didn't make a good rock title, but I would write a song named "Octopussy" just for fun".

    hq720.jpg?sqp=-oaymwE7CK4FEIIDSFryq4qpAy0IARUAAAAAGAElAADIQj0AgKJD8AEB-AH-CYAC0AWKAgwIABABGEYgXChlMA8=&rs=AOn4CLDMvenwA26JQwaDoEhrqYm8puEEsw

    Yeah I take that theme song "You Know My Name" differently @Seve for what it's worth. Maybe or maybe not in line with Chris Cornell's description.

    To me it's in the vein of The Rolling Stones and "Sympathy for the Devil", with the singer lashing out and taunting the listener. For CR, could be the Devil himself or even M giving harsh warning for the dirty existence being 007 involves a person in.

    So I see the song as the villain (or the Devil or even M) initiating Bond into the role of a Double-O and the dirty world that involves. The lyrics and especially "are you willing to die" relate to Bond's state during the torture by Le Chiffre. He was willing to die, as his duty. Then complicated by the lesson he learned as the big picture and surviving the experience. And that works gangbusters for me.

  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited June 26 Posts: 658

    Yeah I take that theme song "You Know My Name" differently @Seve for what it's worth. Maybe or maybe not in line with Chris Cornell's description.

    To me it's in the vein of The Rolling Stones and "Sympathy for the Devil", with the singer lashing out and taunting the listener. For CR, could be the Devil himself or even M giving harsh warning for the dirty existence being 007 involves a person in.

    So I see the song as the villain (or the Devil or even M) initiating Bond into the role of a Double-O and the dirty world that involves. The lyrics and especially "are you willing to die" relate to Bond's state during the torture by Le Chiffre. He was willing to die, as his duty. Then complicated by the lesson he learned as the big picture and surviving the experience. And that works gangbusters for me.

    Lol, well if you are going to disagree with the guy who wrote the song...
    There's nothing more to be said

    And yes, it is in the vein of "Sympathy For The Devil", which is written from the point of view of Satan, with Jagger singing as Lucifer.

    "Sympathy for the Devil" is credited to Jagger and Richards, though the song was largely a Jagger composition.

    The working title of the song was "The Devil Is My Name", having earlier been called "Fallen Angels". Jagger sings in first person narrative as the Devil, who boasts of his role in each of several historical atrocities and repeatedly asks the listener to "guess my name."


    ... just call me Lucifer (whoo-hoo, whoo-hoo)

    3510_1.jpg
  • anyoneanyone Scotland
    Posts: 28
    I'm enjoying this exchange, I've always meant to really dive into You Know My Name in more detail. I firmly believe it is meant in the way Mr the Bruce has indicated above. I'm just not sure that what the artist or wikipedia says will be the full reveal. Remember it is art all of this - song lyrics, even in a popular franchise. Not all artists reveal. And Broccoli has her final say in all things here too.

    The 'you know my name' line is redirecting us I think to a deeper vantage point of the song, its from Bond ultimately, all of it in essence, with the more thematic and situational stuff sitting on top. IE what Richard the Bruce was referring to.
    Have you noticed that each song of the 5 in sequence gets slower. The tempo keeps dropping with each film, and then of course Bond is dead. That conscious decision line means that the story arc of Bond coming to a dead stop is reflected even in the tempo decision. Thats no fluke. Thats deliberate, its there to see.

    Really good creative artists (and that obviously includes Broccoli) encourage the viewer or listener to expand their personal horizons, but that can't happen if everything is spelled out all the time!

    The songs are definitely worth a good scrutiny. Over and out.....


  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited June 27 Posts: 658
    anyone wrote: »
    I'm enjoying this exchange, I've always meant to really dive into You Know My Name in more detail. I firmly believe it is meant in the way Mr the Bruce has indicated above. I'm just not sure that what the artist... says will be the full reveal.

    How anyone can argue against the artists explanation of his own work is beyond me...
    anyone wrote: »
    Remember it is art all of this - song lyrics, even in a popular franchise. Not all artists reveal. '

    But this one did
    anyone wrote: »
    Have you noticed that each song of the 5 in sequence gets slower. The tempo keeps dropping with each film, and then of course Bond is dead. That conscious decision line means that the story arc of Bond coming to a dead stop is reflected even in the tempo decision. Thats no fluke. Thats deliberate, its there to see.

    Interesting theory

    Yes, I have been increasingly dismayed by the slow, mopey, whiny, self pitying nature of recent Bond themes

    I'm not sure I can detect that Sam Smith's song is faster that Billy Eilish's (hang on I'll listen to them again now... no they are much the same tempo)

    Adele's may be ever so slightly slightly faster, but they are all slow ballads. The way I read it, they wanted to go the torch song route with Amy Winehouse, however that didn't work out, but the next time they got what they wanted from Adele and have been following that path ever since. I think they've over played that card, but the money (and Oscars) have kept rolling in, so what do I know
    anyone wrote: »
    Really good creative artists (and that obviously includes Broccoli) encourage the viewer or listener to expand their personal horizons, but that can't happen if everything is spelled out all the time!

    Many artists accept that the audience may interpret their work differently to what they intended and either laugh it off or are just happy that their work has touched someone and given them pleasure or brought them solace etc

    Others don't, "good creative artists" come in all shades and stripes, just like other people

    Whatever the song means to you personally, or Richard the Bruce, is fine, but I don't think you should try to assert that your interpretation is "correct" and the actual author has somehow misunderstood his own work.

  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,831
    I think the issue with the title songs lately is that they feel like they have to incorporate the Bond theme, or do a riff on it. This has been an issue since at least SF.

    Live and Let Die and Nobody Does It Better didn't have to borrow from the Bond theme to be great songs.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 18,412
    I mean Goldfinger and Thunderball do that. They’re pretty good.
  • NoTimeToLiveNoTimeToLive Jamaica
    edited June 28 Posts: 160
    To this day I don't understand the appreciation for Live and Let Die. For some reason it sounds off key and childish to me, both the melody, the lyrics and the singing. It's the only Bond song whose instrumental version I can't even appreciate. Even Die Another Day or Another Way To Die sound decent enough without its vocals (and songs such as The Man with the Golden Gun and Writing's on the Wall are quite beautiful without the cringe-worthy lyrics and Sam Smith's whining).
    echo wrote: »
    I think the issue with the title songs lately is that they feel like they have to incorporate the Bond theme, or do a riff on it. This has been an issue since at least SF.

    It actually started with YKMN.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,533
    Not TB?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 18,412
    It started with Goldfinger, as I mentioned.
  • NoTimeToLiveNoTimeToLive Jamaica
    Posts: 160
    Oh, sure, I thought echo only referred to recent theme songs ("lately").
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited June 29 Posts: 6,831
    Yes, that was my intent. I just feel like it is a trope that has worn out its welcome since the spycraze of the '60s (and in that sense it makes sense that FRWL-TB would include the Bond theme). From YOLT until TLD, the title songs felt...refreshingly original. Even the weaker ones. Now they mostly feel like they're sampling the Bond theme in one way or another.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 29 Posts: 18,412
    I don’t quite follow: for some reason it’s fine for the old ones to do it but bad if the new ones do?
    And when you say most of them do it, where is it in YKMN, AWTD, or WOTW? Because I can’t spot it.
  • NoTimeToLiveNoTimeToLive Jamaica
    Posts: 160
    mtm wrote: »
    I don’t quite follow: for some reason it’s fine for the old ones to do it but bad if the new ones do?
    And when you say most of them do it, where is it in YKMN, AWTD, or WOTW? Because I can’t spot it.

    The opening riff of YKMN and AWTD is based on the same chord progression as the Bond theme. I like it tho, it's not an issue for me as it is for echo.

    No idea about WOTW.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 18,412
    Gosh I’m not sure I can even hear that, if it is there I’m not sure a chord progression really counts as a direct quote. They are Bond themes after all, I think it’s fair to have a bit of Bond sound in them! :)
  • NoTimeToLiveNoTimeToLive Jamaica
    Posts: 160
    mtm wrote: »
    They are Bond themes after all, I think it’s fair to have a bit of Bond sound in them! :)
    Yeah, which is I actually like it. It's a clever way to hint at the Bond theme without actually using it, so you're craving for more Bond theme, and you get a few sprinkles here and there (Trip Aces, Bond Wins It All, etc.) until you get the full version at the end.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited June 29 Posts: 658
    mtm wrote: »
    Gosh I’m not sure I can even hear that, if it is there I’m not sure a chord progression really counts as a direct quote. They are Bond themes after all, I think it’s fair to have a bit of Bond sound in them! :)

    Yes, I guess it's a matter of degree, no harm in the song reminding us that this is a Bond movie, but the song should also bring some new elements to the table

    If the melody relys to heavily on the Bond theme alone for it's melodic hook then it can become a problem

    For example, if we weren't already familiar with the famous chord progression Beethoven's 5th, and someone played it for us for the first time, we might well consider that it would be suitable for use in James Bond, because of the heavy drama it evokes, in the same way that McCartney's "Live & Let Die" does at it's chorus, but neither is a copy of the Monty Norman / John Barry Bond theme.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 18,412
    Seve wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Gosh I’m not sure I can even hear that, if it is there I’m not sure a chord progression really counts as a direct quote. They are Bond themes after all, I think it’s fair to have a bit of Bond sound in them! :)

    Yes, I guess it's a matter of degree, no harm in the song reminding us that this is a Bond movie, but the song should also bring some new elements to the table

    If the melody relys to heavily on the Bond theme alone for it's melodic hook then it can become a problem

    When has this ever happened?
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