Octopussy Appreciation Thread

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  • Posts: 2,140
    The OHMSS shoot was very long. I don't think Connery would have been happy, especially with a rookie director to blame.

    Peter Hunt has his fans, but with Connery it would have been better to hire Terence Young.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 709
    007HallY wrote: »
    A very interesting analysis about Bond's character in Octopussy i found on Reddit:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/JamesBond/comments/16cv4zi/octopussy_a_perfect_character_arc_for_bond/

    I’d say a lot of that’s a bit weighty and cerebral sounding, at least for me. But nonetheless it’s true that Moore’s Bond by the end of that film comes off as very human from his experiences. He seems pretty horrified at Orlov’s plan specifically because he’ll kill many people, he seems genuinely fearful when in the clown costume, and there’s of course his relationship with Octopussy. It’s one of the reasons I like OP as much as I do - it shows a very human version of the character.

    Also, Rog looks human in Octopussy.

    In avtak, he resembles a possessed turkey. His eyes frighten me and the gleam has left his famous smile.
    mtm wrote: »
    For me it’s Roger that fits into OHMSS, not Sean. Which is fi my point that Roger’s scripts did feature a slightly more human, even vulnerable at times, Bond than Sean’s did.

    Octopussy is a great showcase for this: you've got the romantic warmth he shows with Octopussy herself, and indeed Lisl, who I think you get a great sense of Bond's affection for in a very short time. Then you've also got the desperation he shows when trying to stop the bomb exploding, or indeed escaping the manhunt, which works for Bond's evading the guards in the town beneath Piz Gloria. Connery's Bond never shows this dramatic range -which isn't to say that Connery himself wasn't capable of it- he clearly was. But his characterisation of Bond generally never went that far: after Dr No he barely ever breaks a sweat. Look at him trying to escape from Fiona and her goons in the junkanoo: a similar situation to Bond's desperation in the bomb scene or the town in OHMSS, and yet there's pretty much no sense of tension: Bond himself doesn't seem that concerned.
    You can say this is the sort of development which happened over time and the films got slightly more confident about showing Bond in a marginally more three dimensional way, and yet by 1983 Connery's characterisation has stuck in this nothing-phases-him state, whereas Roger's has developed slightly. Although Connery clearly was an excellent actor, his characterisation of Bond exhibited a much narrower dramatic range. So that's why I see Roger's Bond as the better fit for OHMSS.

    Very much agree, and it was a similar problem for Pierce Brosnan: his Bond was rarely rattled.

    Moore's acting in Octopussy has a great deal of range. From the jovial tomfoolery of the dinner sequence, his careful and concerned exposition of Orlov's scheme all the way to the sheer terror of 'that's ninety seconds from now!'

    As for OHMSS, I just cannot see Roger Moore displaying the correct level of vulnerability. Connery could not, either. Craig definitely would.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 18,288
    I don’t know if Bond is terribly vulnerable in OHMSS, only for the last 30 seconds or so. And to be honest I think all of the Bonds could have pulled that off. It would have felt weirdest for Connery’s Bond to do it, but he’d have been able to of course. Roger’s Bond had flashes of vulnerability here and there.
  • Posts: 2,968
    The OHMSS shoot was very long. I don't think Connery would have been happy, especially with a rookie director to blame. Peter Hunt has his fans, but with Connery it would have been better to hire Terence Young.

    The producers could only have persuaded Connery to stay for OHMSS by giving him the sort of deal they ultimately made for DAF, which provided ample compensation for the long shooting time (and shooting in the Swiss alps would have been easier for him than Japan). Connery was usually hard on directors who didn't know what they were doing but Hunt clearly did, and Connery knew he was a vital part of the series' success. Terence Young would not have been an option since he wasn't in good standing with the producers after having abandoned Thunderball in post-production.

  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited June 19 Posts: 6,784
    Revelator wrote: »
    The OHMSS shoot was very long. I don't think Connery would have been happy, especially with a rookie director to blame. Peter Hunt has his fans, but with Connery it would have been better to hire Terence Young.

    The producers could only have persuaded Connery to stay for OHMSS by giving him the sort of deal they ultimately made for DAF, which provided ample compensation for the long shooting time (and shooting in the Swiss alps would have been easier for him than Japan). Connery was usually hard on directors who didn't know what they were doing but Hunt clearly did, and Connery knew he was a vital part of the series' success. Terence Young would not have been an option since he wasn't in good standing with the producers after having abandoned Thunderball in post-production.

    Of all the elements of OHMSS, it's unimaginable to me without Hunt, Rigg, and Barry.

    I think Moore was more than capable in dramatic scenes; OP gives him perhaps the greatest share of them. He is great opposite Berkoff, for one thing. Like Brosnan after him, Moore didn't always get good scripts. FYEO also had its dramatic scenes but OP's ones land more strongly for me. I just think the story's better.
  • Posts: 2,140
    Revelator wrote: »
    The OHMSS shoot was very long. I don't think Connery would have been happy, especially with a rookie director to blame. Peter Hunt has his fans, but with Connery it would have been better to hire Terence Young.

    The producers could only have persuaded Connery to stay for OHMSS by giving him the sort of deal they ultimately made for DAF, which provided ample compensation for the long shooting time (and shooting in the Swiss alps would have been easier for him than Japan). Connery was usually hard on directors who didn't know what they were doing but Hunt clearly did, and Connery knew he was a vital part of the series' success. Terence Young would not have been an option since he wasn't in good standing with the producers after having abandoned Thunderball in post-production.

    Young could also be an option. I don't think he would be any harder to get than Connery. :D
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    edited June 19 Posts: 709
    mtm wrote: »
    I don’t know if Bond is terribly vulnerable in OHMSS, only for the last 30 seconds or so. And to be honest I think all of the Bonds could have pulled that off. It would have felt weirdest for Connery’s Bond to do it, but he’d have been able to of course. Roger’s Bond had flashes of vulnerability here and there.

    Oh, come on, he's clearly terrified when Blofeld's goons corner him at the skating park. Cold, tired, beaten and alone, with a musical interlude reminding us 'he needs love'. Tracy to the rescue.

    Also, I'm sure all the Bonds could do 'vulnerable' but would it work in OHMSS is the question.

    It wouldn't work with Connery because the audience would expect him to fight on, Rog would quip his way out whilst Dalton wouldn't have been in such a position to begin with. Brosnan, perhaps, but his 'vulnerable' range usually was concealed under an impeccably demure exterior. Craig would be rather forced and the impact reduced.

    Lazenby was perfect insofar he was new and his Bond introduced as a frivolous bachelor, bowdlerised by the series first encounter with love.

  • Posts: 5,447
    I actually always think Lazenby overplays the terror when Bond is snapped by the polar bear’s camera. I think Bond would have a reaction, but not to the point he looks like he’s sh*t himself.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 19 Posts: 18,288
    mtm wrote: »
    I don’t know if Bond is terribly vulnerable in OHMSS, only for the last 30 seconds or so. And to be honest I think all of the Bonds could have pulled that off. It would have felt weirdest for Connery’s Bond to do it, but he’d have been able to of course. Roger’s Bond had flashes of vulnerability here and there.

    Oh, come on, he's clearly terrified when Blofeld's goons corner him at the skating park. Cold, tired, beaten and alone, with a musical interlude reminding us 'he needs love'. Tracy to the rescue.

    Yeah, for a couple of seconds, maybe. It's quite hard to tell from Lazenby's performance to be fair. I'm not sure that one short sequence would mean you'd be looking primarily for someone who can do 'vulnerable', but regardless look at Rog at the circus climax of OP where he's very good at being scared and panicked, or when he's properly shaken up and angry after the centrifuge in MR etc.
    Also, I'm sure all the Bonds could do 'vulnerable' but would it work in OHMSS is the question.

    It wouldn't work with Connery because the audience would expect him to fight on, Rog would quip his way out whilst Dalton wouldn't have been in such a position to begin with. Brosnan, perhaps, but his 'vulnerable' range usually was concealed under an impeccably demure exterior. Craig would be rather forced and the impact reduced.

    I agree partly about Connery, it would feel out of character to some extent because he'd been the superman for so long, but I'm sure we'd accept it. All the others I'm not sure what you mean, they'd have been absolutely fine in it, better than Lazenby because they're all actually actors (not sure what you mean about Dalton; look at him when he's worried he's about to be sussed out by Dario). If we're just talking about the ice rink bit, all of the Bonds have played scenes where the odds are against them and they're feeling concerned.
    Lazenby was perfect insofar he was new and his Bond introduced as a frivolous bachelor, bowdlerised by the series first encounter with love.
    My opinion is Roger was better suited; if you want frivolous bachelor it's hard to beat The Saint or Brett Sinclair, and he was more than capable of the romantic stuff, plus he'd have been very confident in the Hilly comedy stuff.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,433
    The last few posts have nothing to do with Octopussy.
    I’m okay with varied debate, but the thread is titled Octopussy appreciation
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited June 19 Posts: 9,675
    The OHMSS shoot was very long. I don't think Connery would have been happy, especially with a rookie director to blame.

    Peter Hunt has his fans, but with Connery it would have been better to hire Terence Young.

    He wasn't very happy with Never Say Never Again...that's for sure 😉 ...

    Personally it would have been nice for Roger to have ended his tenure with OP. It's an incredibly fun Bond adventure, wipes the floor with NSNA, and seeing Roger-Bond sail away with Octoppussy would have been the sweetest conclusion to his era.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 709
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I don’t know if Bond is terribly vulnerable in OHMSS, only for the last 30 seconds or so. And to be honest I think all of the Bonds could have pulled that off. It would have felt weirdest for Connery’s Bond to do it, but he’d have been able to of course. Roger’s Bond had flashes of vulnerability here and there.

    Oh, come on, he's clearly terrified when Blofeld's goons corner him at the skating park. Cold, tired, beaten and alone, with a musical interlude reminding us 'he needs love'. Tracy to the rescue.

    Yeah, for a couple of seconds, maybe. It's quite hard to tell from Lazenby's performance to be fair. I'm not sure that one short sequence would mean you'd be looking primarily for someone who can do 'vulnerable', but regardless look at Rog at the circus climax of OP where he's very good at being scared and panicked, or when he's properly shaken up and angry after the centrifuge in MR etc.
    Also, I'm sure all the Bonds could do 'vulnerable' but would it work in OHMSS is the question.

    It wouldn't work with Connery because the audience would expect him to fight on, Rog would quip his way out whilst Dalton wouldn't have been in such a position to begin with. Brosnan, perhaps, but his 'vulnerable' range usually was concealed under an impeccably demure exterior. Craig would be rather forced and the impact reduced.

    I agree partly about Connery, it would feel out of character to some extent because he'd been the superman for so long, but I'm sure we'd accept it. All the others I'm not sure what you mean, they'd have been absolutely fine in it, better than Lazenby because they're all actually actors (not sure what you mean about Dalton; look at him when he's worried he's about to be sussed out by Dario). If we're just talking about the ice rink bit, all of the Bonds have played scenes where the odds are against them and they're feeling concerned.
    Lazenby was perfect insofar he was new and his Bond introduced as a frivolous bachelor, bowdlerised by the series first encounter with love.
    My opinion is Roger was better suited; if you want frivolous bachelor it's hard to beat The Saint or Brett Sinclair, and he was more than capable of the romantic stuff, plus he'd have been very confident in the Hilly comedy stuff.
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I don’t know if Bond is terribly vulnerable in OHMSS, only for the last 30 seconds or so. And to be honest I think all of the Bonds could have pulled that off. It would have felt weirdest for Connery’s Bond to do it, but he’d have been able to of course. Roger’s Bond had flashes of vulnerability here and there.

    Oh, come on, he's clearly terrified when Blofeld's goons corner him at the skating park. Cold, tired, beaten and alone, with a musical interlude reminding us 'he needs love'. Tracy to the rescue.

    Yeah, for a couple of seconds, maybe. It's quite hard to tell from Lazenby's performance to be fair. I'm not sure that one short sequence would mean you'd be looking primarily for someone who can do 'vulnerable', but regardless look at Rog at the circus climax of OP where he's very good at being scared and panicked, or when he's properly shaken up and angry after the centrifuge in MR etc.
    Also, I'm sure all the Bonds could do 'vulnerable' but would it work in OHMSS is the question.

    It wouldn't work with Connery because the audience would expect him to fight on, Rog would quip his way out whilst Dalton wouldn't have been in such a position to begin with. Brosnan, perhaps, but his 'vulnerable' range usually was concealed under an impeccably demure exterior. Craig would be rather forced and the impact reduced.

    I agree partly about Connery, it would feel out of character to some extent because he'd been the superman for so long, but I'm sure we'd accept it. All the others I'm not sure what you mean, they'd have been absolutely fine in it, better than Lazenby because they're all actually actors (not sure what you mean about Dalton; look at him when he's worried he's about to be sussed out by Dario). If we're just talking about the ice rink bit, all of the Bonds have played scenes where the odds are against them and they're feeling concerned.
    Lazenby was perfect insofar he was new and his Bond introduced as a frivolous bachelor, bowdlerised by the series first encounter with love.
    My opinion is Roger was better suited; if you want frivolous bachelor it's hard to beat The Saint or Brett Sinclair, and he was more than capable of the romantic stuff, plus he'd have been very confident in the Hilly comedy stuff.

    Aye, maybe with Rog.

    As for Lazenby, it is the most telling sequence of his performance. He must have been directed to.

    It would be interesting to see Connery in a kilt.

    Not anywhere near as interesting as Roger Moore in the gorilla outfit. His escape from it is beautifully balanced: he's in the circus car so 'how'd he do it' is expected to produce wonder.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 709
    Listened to Barry's Octopussy score the other night.

    It's incredibly good.

    Save for the theme song. It makes great incidental music.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited June 19 Posts: 6,784
    Barry was so good at composing primary, secondary, tertiary themes. Like everything at The Monsoon Palace.

    Also, for OP appreciation, who doesn't love Vijay? One of the better sidekicks in the series.

    The Indiana Jones-ification of Bond in OP played to Moore's strengths.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 709
    echo wrote: »
    Barry was so good at composing primary, secondary, tertiary themes. Like everything at The Monsoon Palace.

    Also, for OP appreciation, who doesn't love Vijay? One of the better sidekicks in the series.

    The Indiana Jones-ification of Bond in OP played to Moore's strengths.

    One heck of a stunt cast and a most excellent, worthy fellow: Vijay!
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