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Wait...was the ending of NTTD foreshadowed nearly a decade ago? (SPOILERS)

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  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,517
    Funny how things work out in the long run.

  • Some_Kind_Of_HeroSome_Kind_Of_Hero
    Posts: 6,844
    RichardTheBruce wrote: »
    Funny how things work out in the long run.

    I suspect this is what Bond was thinking as he watched those missiles come in.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Dolly did wear braces
    Posts: 7,166
    RichardTheBruce wrote: »
    Funny how things work out in the long run.

    Funny how it always goes with love, when you don't look, you find.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited August 2022 Posts: 3,284
    By 'foreshadowing' we mean deliberately inserting elements into the films that would later be revealed to have been leading up to a particular event, right? Thing is, it was only after CR that Craig had the idea to kill off Bond, so there wasn't any foreshadowing in that. When they were all interviewed for Variety last year, BB said that she'd agreed to the idea before discussing it with MGW and Craig said that when it was raised with MGW, 'the answer was no' and that no one mentioned it again until the discussions to get him back for NTTD. So no foreshadowing in QOS, SF or SP either. Which means that the spoilsport answer is...no, CraigBond's death wasn't foreshadowed in the earlier films. Ah, well.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,517
    For the films as they exist, it's foreshadowing.

    Different from real world events and speculation.

  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2022 Posts: 3,960
    When Craig was cast, he said in an interview that he asked Barbara if he could kill him off, and Barbara agreed, and it's before or after Casino Royale, so the foreshadowing was possible in those films, if not CR, then the following films.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited August 2022 Posts: 3,284
    Nah, look, things such as an incidental reference to 00s having a short lifespan, the flatlining in the car in CR and Bond nearly being killed in SF aren't foreshadowing the end of NTTD. Foreshadowing is the deliberate use of particular incidents as a conscious reflection of a later event. None of those things were used to build up to Bond's death at the end of NTTD. Why not? Because, according to Craig himself, the idea wasn't raised until after CR, it was turned down at that time and it wasn't even mentioned again until they tried to get him to come back for NTTD. So if Bond's death wasn't even under consideration in QOS, SF or SP, that proves that there isn't any foreshadowing in those films.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited August 2022 Posts: 14,517
    Once it exists across the films as a common theme or thread, it serves as foreshadowing.

    Can't be taken back or taken apart or rationalized out of. Just storytelling.

  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited August 2022 Posts: 3,284
    Yeah, I see what you mean, but that's only works if you retcon something to give it a meaning it didn't originally have, right? Say, something that happened in SF acquires new meaning in the light of events in later films. But for it to have foreshadowed those events, it would've had to have been put in the SF script with that deliberate meaning in mind. Retconning's the opposite of foreshadowing, right?
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,517
    No I disagree. The films as they exist tell the tale.

    Does not depend on what happened behind the scenes during the production or real world developments. Or the original intent, which we can't actually know ourselves.

    When Chris Cornell screams "Are you willing to die?!?" at Craig Bond in the titles of Casino Royale, that plays out as a common theme across the films to a conclusion. And it exists as foreshadowing.

  • ColonelAdamskiColonelAdamski UK
    Posts: 1,160
    There's a lot of people seeing Jesus in their toast here.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,517
    I like the films and don't have the limitations expressed.

    Bless your heart.

  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,609
    Bond being “willing to die” for the mission is a theme running all the way back to the inception of the character in ‘53 when CR was published, so you may as well be arguing that the end of NTTD was foreshadowed then, don’t you think? Bond brushing death is a common theme in all the films, and all the novels; not just the Craig era.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited August 2022 Posts: 6,790
    Timothy Dalton
    is
    Ian Fleming's true
    James Bond 007
    in
    Brush With Death

    Coming October 2025
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,517
    With the films, not given a focus as it was in Casino Royale is my opinion. Or calling out Bond as an orphan at beginning and end. Or other examples given.

    Viewing Casino Royale recently there were many relatable moments across the Craig films. Very enjoyable.



  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,609
    echo wrote: »
    Timothy Dalton
    is
    Ian Fleming's true
    James Bond 007
    in
    Brush With Death

    Coming October 2025

    Daniel Craig
    Is
    Ian Fleming’s
    James Bond 007
    In
    “That Was A Close One”
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited August 2022 Posts: 3,284
    Well, Chris Cornell singing 'are you willing to die?' would be foreshadowing if he'd known that Craig's Bond was going to die in his final film and had written that line as a deliberate reference to it. But he didn't, because Craig said he didn't raise the idea of Bond's death until the night of CR's Berlin premiere in November 2006. So nothing before that is foreshadowing. After BB told MGW about Craig's idea, Craig said that 'the answer was no' and 'it wasn't mentioned again' until the discussions about NTTD. So nothing in QOS, SF or SP was written to foreshadow Bond's death in NTTD. When looked at now, yes, some things in those films seem to take on extra resonance - but it's personal and subjective to the individual viewer; none of that stuff was actually written into the scripts to foreshadow the end of NTTD. Literally, none of it.
    On the other hand, personal and subjective is good. I'm not big on us just being passive viewers who sit there and take what we're given. I think it's good to mentally and emotionally interact with the films, so that aspects of them do take on personal and subjective meanings to us. So if seeing those references, etc, in CR, QOS, SF and SP adds some texture and depth in the light of NTTD and makes the films a bit richer, then fair do's!
  • Some_Kind_Of_HeroSome_Kind_Of_Hero
    Posts: 6,844
    Remember in DAD when Bond says, "Don't blow it all at once?" I'm just saying, we really have no idea how far ahead they thought this thing through.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Dolly did wear braces
    Posts: 7,166
    Some_Kind_Of_Hero wrote: »
    Remember in DAD when Bond says, "Don't blow it all at once?" I'm just saying, we really have no idea how far ahead they thought this thing through.

    EON PRODUCTIONS MEETING ROOM, 2005:

    GREGG WILSON: (...) The news is only good. Our increased surveillance capability means rival spy franchises are easily counteracted. We are winning.
    MICHAEL WILSON: Thank you, Mr. Wilson. Now, on to the matter at hand. A few days after we came up with the plan to kill off Bond in Daniel's last film, we got word that the idea had spread outside our inner circle.
    BARBARA BROCCOLI: The "No Time to Die" project is EON's most important initiative since "California Girls" back in 1984. We cannot allow anyone to know about it ahead of time; the consequences could be disastrous. Christ, they still think Daniel might leave the role after Casino Royale!
    MICHAEL WILSON: Five films is the plan. Delays, strikes, corporate mergers and acquisitions, rumors of wrist-slashing, we've got it all mapped out.
    DANIEL CRAIG: You run a very smooth operation here. I'm glad to be a part of it.
    BARBARA BROCCOLI: Thank you, Daniel. (Pause.) EON is a fraternity whose strength lies in the integrity of its members. The culprit of the leak is known to us. We have decided on the appropriate action.
    (The other people in the room tremble. Barbara presses a button, and PETER LAMONT is electrocuted to death.)
    BARBARA BROCCOLI: I guess he won't be back for Quantum of Solace.
    MICHAEL WILSON: Consider him slimed.
    (Everyone laughs.)
  • Some_Kind_Of_HeroSome_Kind_Of_Hero
    Posts: 6,844
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Some_Kind_Of_Hero wrote: »
    Remember in DAD when Bond says, "Don't blow it all at once?" I'm just saying, we really have no idea how far ahead they thought this thing through.

    EON PRODUCTIONS MEETING ROOM, 2005:

    GREGG WILSON: (...) The news is only good. Our increased surveillance capability means rival spy franchises are easily counteracted. We are winning.
    MICHAEL WILSON: Thank you, Mr. Wilson. Now, on to the matter at hand. A few days after we came up with the plan to kill off Bond in Daniel's last film, we got word that the idea had spread outside our inner circle.
    BARBARA BROCCOLI: The "No Time to Die" project is EON's most important initiative since "California Girls" back in 1984. We cannot allow anyone to know about it ahead of time; the consequences could be disastrous. Christ, they still think Daniel might leave the role after Casino Royale!
    MICHAEL WILSON: Five films is the plan. Delays, strikes, corporate mergers and acquisitions, rumors of wrist-slashing, we've got it all mapped out.
    DANIEL CRAIG: You run a very smooth operation here. I'm glad to be a part of it.
    BARBARA BROCCOLI: Thank you, Daniel. (Pause.) EON is a fraternity whose strength lies in the integrity of its members. The culprit of the leak is known to us. We have decided on the appropriate action.
    (The other people in the room tremble. Barbara presses a button, and PETER LAMONT is electrocuted to death.)
    BARBARA BROCCOLI: I guess he won't be back for Quantum of Solace.
    MICHAEL WILSON: Consider him slimed.
    (Everyone laughs.)

    Lol! Now I'm picturing Mendes sweating and trying to loosen his collar while he explains how he and Logan have the script for Spectre totally under control and Barbara swiveling back and forth in her seat at the head of the table, dangling a finger over the "Sam" button.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Dolly did wear braces
    edited August 2022 Posts: 7,166
    Some_Kind_Of_Hero wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Some_Kind_Of_Hero wrote: »
    Remember in DAD when Bond says, "Don't blow it all at once?" I'm just saying, we really have no idea how far ahead they thought this thing through.

    EON PRODUCTIONS MEETING ROOM, 2005:

    GREGG WILSON: (...) The news is only good. Our increased surveillance capability means rival spy franchises are easily counteracted. We are winning.
    MICHAEL WILSON: Thank you, Mr. Wilson. Now, on to the matter at hand. A few days after we came up with the plan to kill off Bond in Daniel's last film, we got word that the idea had spread outside our inner circle.
    BARBARA BROCCOLI: The "No Time to Die" project is EON's most important initiative since "California Girls" back in 1984. We cannot allow anyone to know about it ahead of time; the consequences could be disastrous. Christ, they still think Daniel might leave the role after Casino Royale!
    MICHAEL WILSON: Five films is the plan. Delays, strikes, corporate mergers and acquisitions, rumors of wrist-slashing, we've got it all mapped out.
    DANIEL CRAIG: You run a very smooth operation here. I'm glad to be a part of it.
    BARBARA BROCCOLI: Thank you, Daniel. (Pause.) EON is a fraternity whose strength lies in the integrity of its members. The culprit of the leak is known to us. We have decided on the appropriate action.
    (The other people in the room tremble. Barbara presses a button, and PETER LAMONT is electrocuted to death.)
    BARBARA BROCCOLI: I guess he won't be back for Quantum of Solace.
    MICHAEL WILSON: Consider him slimed.
    (Everyone laughs.)

    Lol! Now I'm picturing Mendes sweating and trying to loosen his collar while he explains how he and Logan have the script for Spectre totally under control and Barbara swiveling back and forth in her seat at the head of the table, dangling a finger over the "Sam" button.

    :))
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,789
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    The "slit my wrists" line is one of the most pulled-out-of-context-and-exaggerated lines in recent history. Presidents and Prime Ministers get away with lying much more easily it seems than Craig with a little hyperbole after another extremely exhausting shoot.

    Maybe. Or... maybe it is connected with his arc as a whole!
  • Scaramanga1974Scaramanga1974
    Posts: 896
    A part of me still believes he somehow survived!
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,284
    All that was left of him was his little finger...
  • mattjoesmattjoes Dolly did wear braces
    Posts: 7,166
    Venutius wrote: »
    All that was left of him was his little finger...
    Most of Bond goes to heaven but the part Vesper missed the most stays on Earth.
  • NoTimeToLiveNoTimeToLive Jamaica
    Posts: 153
    Venutius wrote: »
    So nothing before that is foreshadowing. After BB told MGW about Craig's idea, Craig said that 'the answer was no' and 'it wasn't mentioned again' until the discussions about NTTD. So nothing in QOS, SF or SP was written to foreshadow Bond's death in NTTD.

    Didn't Craig or EON say that they almost wrote Bond's death in Spectre? I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere on this very site.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited August 2022 Posts: 3,284
    Dunno, maybe. There's no mention of Bond dying in any of the SP draft scripts that were leaked, but there must've been many more drafts that weren't leaked, so it could easily be in some of those, with EON then changing their minds. Similarly, while the leaked emails between the studio execs and EON do refer to SP as 'Bond's last mission', there's no mention of him dying in any of them - the 'last mission' thing is always mentioned in relation to Bond leaving MI6 for Madeleine. Again, though, there must be many more emails that weren't leaked, so it's possible that it was mentioned in those and they later decided against it.
    Thing is, though, we've got a direct quote from Craig himself in that Variety article saying that after BB told MGW about it in 2006, 'the answer was no' and that 'it wasn't mentioned again' until it came to NTTD. That's pretty clear cut, right? Course, Dan could've been lying or the journalist could've misquoted him but, nah, on balance I reckon it's pretty good evidence that after the idea of Bond's death was vetoed in 2006, it wasn't part of EON's plans until the discussions to get Craig to come back for NTTD. Always happy to be proved wrong, though!
  • anyoneanyone Scotland
    Posts: 25

    RichardTheBruce wrote: »
    No I disagree. The films as they exist tell the tale.

    Does not depend on what happened behind the scenes during the production or real world developments. Or the original intent, which we can't actually know ourselves.

    When Chris Cornell screams "Are you willing to die?!?" at Craig Bond in the titles of Casino Royale, that plays out as a common theme across the films to a conclusion. And it exists as foreshadowing.


    Mr Venutius - I have to wholeheartedly agree with Richard the Bruce. There are many different ways in which the 5 films are leading knowingly to Bond's end. And in order to unpick them we have to start looking very wide and artistically and symbollicaly, not just to cast a big net because thats 'cheating' (!). But also to pick up and see what has maybe been missed.

    I know you guys are well versed in things so bear in mind the totall experience of film communication - sound, plot, song, colour, editing, visual metaphors, everything. When you do this over and over again things start popping out like never before. So consider this little beauty from CR -


    Recall Safin meeting the grown up Madeleine Swann in her practice for the first time. Well he goes on to say the flowers (the Foxgloves) behind her can be deadly. If you 'eat them' (ingest them) it can cause youre heart to just 'stop'. Where did we see that happen before????

    When Bond is poisoned in CR the medical team with M find the problem - 'Ventricular Tachycardia', and they promptly add at the same time 'Digitalis' - the posionous cause of the upcoming heartstop. This is the Foxglove plant name ie 'Digitalis Purpurea'. So we have the incredible tie-in in CR of Spectre's poisoners providing the poison for Le Chiffre to bump Bond off. And we are alerted to this by Safin spelling it out for us in NTTD.

    Pretty neat, and done 'under the radar' but 'in your face'. They are letting us know everything is all connected with a detail like this. Right through the 5 films as an ultimate story arc. Its quite incredible really. Keep exploring the films because you'll get links which sometimes we're just supposed to 'feel' but can't unpick (thats art for you), and others which are just factually precise but you might not spot (thats great well intentioned story telling for you). Follow it all cause its all there.

    Meanwhile, we can take behind the scenes and other related stuff as being useful but also not useful as being conclusive in itself.

    In CR Bond's actuall death in NTTD is being foreshadowed and referenced even just in that one poison scene right there. I feel its into the films you should go to get the truth because film makers can show the truth without having to admit it (thats art for you!!).
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 24 Posts: 18,311
    I think it's a fun little detail that Tobias Menzies (Villiers) is the only actor credited in the opening titles of Casino Royale whose character doesn't eventually die in CR or the later Craig films.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,712
    mtm wrote: »
    I think it's a fun little detail that every actor credited in the opening title sequence of CR plays a character who dies by the end of the Craig films, with the sole exception of Tobias Menzies (Villiers).

    Whose absence from the sequels may be a sign of ill portent. ;-)

    It's a very interesting observation, for sure, @mtm. I had never noticed before. From now on, the OT of CR will read like something of an obituary to me. ;-)
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