Quick Big Mi6 Fleming Novel Ranking

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Comments

  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,049
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Yes, that's it. Bond vs Scaramanga could have been written as a tense thriller. Not every film demands that Bond saves the world. But, and this is probably controversial, if you send Bond and another assassin in the arena for the Bond equivalent of The Most Dangerous Game, you have to be prepared to go dark. So none of those karate shenanigans with Hip's nieces, no stupid blonde's bottom threatening to solar-fry Bond, no loop whistle (sorry, John), and no JW shouting up every scene he is in. Comedy in the Bonds is like salt: a little can improve the taste, a lot can ruin it. In the case of TMWTGG, the comedy is all over the place, it is too much, and it runs the film into the ground. A potentially cool conflict was rendered at the mercy of silly jokes. The novel, at least, doesn't have to rely on undercooked comedy. I can handle most of the silly stuff in DAF and LALD, but TMWTGG gets crushed under its weight.

    I blame Richard Maibaum for the Solex, he can’t do his trademark criticizing others for his ideas this time. I blame both Guy Hamilton and Tom Mackiewicz for making everything too silly in TMWTGG. Too many people who were working on the series too long without being fresh.

    These guys had been in the game for far too long. Another problem was that David Picker clearly didn't want another OHMSS. One thing is for sure, the "comedic" trilogy of DAF, LALD, TMWTGG is the very opposite of OHMSS. One wonders how TMWTGG would have been adapted if OHMSS had been a big hit and set a whole new template.

    Ironically, TMWTGG was at one point going to be GL’s next film. I wonder how that would have followed OHMSS, hit or not.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited August 2022 Posts: 7,518
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Yes, that's it. Bond vs Scaramanga could have been written as a tense thriller. Not every film demands that Bond saves the world. But, and this is probably controversial, if you send Bond and another assassin in the arena for the Bond equivalent of The Most Dangerous Game, you have to be prepared to go dark. So none of those karate shenanigans with Hip's nieces, no stupid blonde's bottom threatening to solar-fry Bond, no loop whistle (sorry, John), and no JW shouting up every scene he is in. Comedy in the Bonds is like salt: a little can improve the taste, a lot can ruin it. In the case of TMWTGG, the comedy is all over the place, it is too much, and it runs the film into the ground. A potentially cool conflict was rendered at the mercy of silly jokes. The novel, at least, doesn't have to rely on undercooked comedy. I can handle most of the silly stuff in DAF and LALD, but TMWTGG gets crushed under its weight.

    I blame Richard Maibaum for the Solex, he can’t do his trademark criticizing others for his ideas this time. I blame both Guy Hamilton and Tom Mackiewicz for making everything too silly in TMWTGG. Too many people who were working on the series too long without being fresh.

    These guys had been in the game for far too long. Another problem was that David Picker clearly didn't want another OHMSS. One thing is for sure, the "comedic" trilogy of DAF, LALD, TMWTGG is the very opposite of OHMSS. One wonders how TMWTGG would have been adapted if OHMSS had been a big hit and set a whole new template.

    Ironically, TMWTGG was at one point going to be GL’s next film. I wonder how that would have followed OHMSS, hit or not.

    I suppose they could have just made it so that Bond was depressed about Tracy and M didn't want him to be a 00 any more as per the YOLT novel, but instead of making him 7777 and sending him to Japan on a diplomatic mission, they just send him to Scaramanga on a suicide mission per that novel.

    If they could have figured out a way to include Ferzetti and Savalas in that plot, I might have preferred that to DAF. Honestly anything would have been preferable to DAF.

    Maybe throughout the film there is a shadow stalking Bond and Bond isn't sure who it is, but at the end it's revealed to be Draco who was following him as he figured Bond would lead him to Blofeld so he could get his own revenge for Tracy... but it's Scaramanga he leads him to and maybe Scaramanga kills him; Bond is enraged which leads to their climactic duel. Not sure how Blofeld would play into it but maybe he's not needed.

    EDIT: Possibly Scaramanga is a pseudonym for Blofeld (like Shatterhand was in YOLT)... just transform TMWTGG entirely into YOLT. :))

    I kind of like the idea of Blofeld, throughout his career as criminal mastermind, moonlighting as internationally renowned assassin Scaramanga, just so he can get his own hands dirty every once in awhile... Blofeld and Scaramanga both serve as pseudo-foils to Bond in their own ways so it would make sense IMO...

    EDIT2: I keep coming back to think about this. I know in the current TMWTGG it isn't Scaramanga that sends the golden bullet with 007 on it to MI6 but in this version, it would make sense if he did issue this challenge personally after Bond foiled his plots in Miami and Switzerland... Maybe Scaramanga is his true identity and Blofeld is the pseudonym?

    Fun to think about!
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,382
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Yes, that's it. Bond vs Scaramanga could have been written as a tense thriller. Not every film demands that Bond saves the world. But, and this is probably controversial, if you send Bond and another assassin in the arena for the Bond equivalent of The Most Dangerous Game, you have to be prepared to go dark. So none of those karate shenanigans with Hip's nieces, no stupid blonde's bottom threatening to solar-fry Bond, no loop whistle (sorry, John), and no JW shouting up every scene he is in. Comedy in the Bonds is like salt: a little can improve the taste, a lot can ruin it. In the case of TMWTGG, the comedy is all over the place, it is too much, and it runs the film into the ground. A potentially cool conflict was rendered at the mercy of silly jokes. The novel, at least, doesn't have to rely on undercooked comedy. I can handle most of the silly stuff in DAF and LALD, but TMWTGG gets crushed under its weight.

    I blame Richard Maibaum for the Solex, he can’t do his trademark criticizing others for his ideas this time. I blame both Guy Hamilton and Tom Mackiewicz for making everything too silly in TMWTGG. Too many people who were working on the series too long without being fresh.

    These guys had been in the game for far too long. Another problem was that David Picker clearly didn't want another OHMSS. One thing is for sure, the "comedic" trilogy of DAF, LALD, TMWTGG is the very opposite of OHMSS. One wonders how TMWTGG would have been adapted if OHMSS had been a big hit and set a whole new template.

    Ironically, TMWTGG was at one point going to be GL’s next film. I wonder how that would have followed OHMSS, hit or not.

    I suppose they could have just made it so that Bond was depressed about Tracy and M didn't want him to be a 00 any more as per the YOLT novel, but instead of making him 7777 and sending him to Japan on a diplomatic mission, they just send him to Scaramanga on a suicide mission per that novel.

    If they could have figured out a way to include Ferzetti and Savalas in that plot, I might have preferred that to DAF. Honestly anything would have been preferable to DAF.

    Maybe throughout the film there is a shadow stalking Bond and Bond isn't sure who it is, but at the end it's revealed to be Draco who was following him as he figured Bond would lead him to Blofeld so he could get his own revenge for Tracy... but it's Scaramanga he leads him to and maybe Scaramanga kills him; Bond is enraged which leads to their climactic duel. Not sure how Blofeld would play into it but maybe he's not needed.

    EDIT: Possibly Scaramanga is a pseudonym for Blofeld (like Shatterhand was in YOLT)... just transform TMWTGG entirely into YOLT. :))

    I kind of like the idea of Blofeld, throughout his career as criminal mastermind, moonlighting as internationally renowned assassin Scaramanga, just so he can get his own hands dirty every once in awhile... Blofeld and Scaramanga both serve as pseudo-foils to Bond in their own ways so it would make sense IMO...

    EDIT2: I keep coming back to think about this. I know in the current TMWTGG it isn't Scaramanga that sends the golden bullet with 007 on it to MI6 but in this version, it would make sense if he did issue this challenge personally after Bond foiled his plots in Miami and Switzerland... Maybe Scaramanga is his true identity and Blofeld is the pseudonym?

    Fun to think about!

    And it's great, especially if Cristophee Lee would have played him!
    Just imagine.....
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,758
    Moving onwards with our penultimate place, at number 13:

    THE SPY WHO LOVED ME

    the-spy-who-loved-me.jpg

    Unsurprisingly Fleming at his most experimental, not including Bond until halfway through, is a divisive entry.

    It was given last place on seven occasions, the most of any of the contestants. On the other hand, it also ended up 5th twice and 6th, 7th and 8th once.

    In total TSWLM acquired 65 points.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2022 Posts: 3,382
    Same ranking here for me at #13.
    But it's quite a decent novel, I still would liked to see Vivienne Michel as a Bond Girl though.
    Also the motel shoot out could make for a great Pre Title Sequence.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    There are things to enjoy, but this was definitely last for me.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    edited August 2022 Posts: 2,161
    If we had played this game just a month earlier I would have ranked this quite a few spots higher, as it is I have it in last place. In the past I have enjoyed this entry more than most others seemed to. But with my latest re-reading of the series I found myself skipping Viv’s story in it’s entirety, and just read the section featuring 007. I did try but I found that I didn’t want to go through her whole journey thing again. The first time or two it was quite interesting, and I think a successful experiment, but at this point it’s not worth revisiting. I didn’t even enjoy the Bond chapters that much this time, though I think there the gem, ripe for adaption, there in is retelling of his of hunting down the Spectre agent. At least as a PTS. Definitely the highlight. Anyway, right now I don’t see this thing budging from the bottom spot. I didn’t even marked as read it and the Bond Novel Meter, because I couldn’t get through it.
  • Posts: 6,726
    Last place for me too! As @Birdleson pointed out, after reading it once, I had no desire to read about Viv's story again, and just didnt feel it was interesting enough. In FRWL novel Bond doesnt appear for quite a while, but its still a compelling read , not so here!
  • edited August 2022 Posts: 2,742
    TSWLM is an interesting novel, no doubt. I don't just mean the fact that it's written from the perspective of Viv, but the fact that it highlights Fleming's conflicted relationship with the morality of his main character. By the end, we get the police officer's little aside about how despite Bond's heroism in the situation, he's ultimately just as connected with crime and danger as Slugsy and Horror were, and that Viv should not build a hero out of him/become infatuated. Heck, by the end Bond even sneaks out on Viv and leaves her, in a sense mirroring what all the other men in her life have done to her.

    My main issue with the book is that Viv isn't one of Fleming's stronger female characters. She's gone through a couple of very bad relationships, but I never got the sense she was particularly cynical or hardened. By the end (from what I remember anyway) she doesn't seem to want to accept that the situation will have some sort of lasting impact on her, and does indeed seem to be infatuated by Bond.

    I know a few Bond fans on here like the idea of adapting some of this novel for film as a PTS, but I do think that misses out on the more interesting aspects of this novel. Truth is even if this book could be adapted for film (I'm not sure if Fleming's wishes allow this) it's a book about how Viv (and by extension the reader) views James Bond and even builds him up as this heroic figure, all despite his moral ambiguity, despite his very obvious flaws. In that sense I think this book is an interesting experiment. Like TMWTGG I enjoy it, but it doesn't gel quite as well as many of Fleming's other novels.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2022 Posts: 3,382
    007HallY wrote: »
    TSWLM is an interesting novel, no doubt. I don't just mean the fact that it's written from the perspective of Viv, but the fact that it highlights Fleming's conflicted relationship with the morality of his main character. By the end, we get the police officer's little aside about how despite Bond's heroism in the situation, he's ultimately just as connected with crime and danger as Slugsy and Horror were, and that Viv should not build a hero out of him/become infatuated. Heck, by the end Bond even sneaks out on Viv and leaves her, in a sense mirroring what all the other men in her life have done to her.

    My main issue with the book is that Viv isn't one of Fleming's stronger female characters. She's gone through a couple of very bad relationships, but I never got the sense she was particularly cynical or hardened. By the end (from what I remember anyway) she doesn't seem to want to accept that the situation will have some sort of lasting impact on her, and does indeed seem to be infatuated by Bond.

    I know a few Bond fans on here like the idea of adapting some of this novel for film as a PTS, but I do think that misses out on the more interesting aspects of this novel. Truth is even if this book could be adapted for film (I'm not sure if Fleming's wishes allow this) it's a book about how Viv (and by extension the reader) views James Bond and even builds him up as this heroic figure, all despite his moral ambiguity, despite his very obvious flaws. In that sense I think this book is an interesting experiment. Like TMWTGG I enjoy it, but it doesn't gel quite as well as many of Fleming's other novels.

    That's the problem with the female characters in the later works of Fleming (at least after Thunderball), the one who preceded this, Tracy also suffered the same (that highlighted paragraph).

    When I've read that paragraph, it's Tracy who also comes to my mind as another example.

    What happened to Viv also happened to Tracy, just about the same, gone through a couple of bad relationships but there's no sense of cynical or being hardened, and at the end, just been cured by Bond and turned subservient to him instead.

    But Fleming seemed to realized this mistakes and fired back with Kissy Suzuki.
  • Posts: 2,742
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    TSWLM is an interesting novel, no doubt. I don't just mean the fact that it's written from the perspective of Viv, but the fact that it highlights Fleming's conflicted relationship with the morality of his main character. By the end, we get the police officer's little aside about how despite Bond's heroism in the situation, he's ultimately just as connected with crime and danger as Slugsy and Horror were, and that Viv should not build a hero out of him/become infatuated. Heck, by the end Bond even sneaks out on Viv and leaves her, in a sense mirroring what all the other men in her life have done to her.

    My main issue with the book is that Viv isn't one of Fleming's stronger female characters. She's gone through a couple of very bad relationships, but I never got the sense she was particularly cynical or hardened. By the end (from what I remember anyway) she doesn't seem to want to accept that the situation will have some sort of lasting impact on her, and does indeed seem to be infatuated by Bond.

    I know a few Bond fans on here like the idea of adapting some of this novel for film as a PTS, but I do think that misses out on the more interesting aspects of this novel. Truth is even if this book could be adapted for film (I'm not sure if Fleming's wishes allow this) it's a book about how Viv (and by extension the reader) views James Bond and even builds him up as this heroic figure, all despite his moral ambiguity, despite his very obvious flaws. In that sense I think this book is an interesting experiment. Like TMWTGG I enjoy it, but it doesn't gel quite as well as many of Fleming's other novels.

    That's the problem with the female characters in the later works of Fleming (at least after Thunderball), the one who preceded this, Tracy also suffers the same (that highlighted paragraph).

    When I've read that paragraph, it's Tracy who also comes to my mind as another example.

    What happened to Viv also happened to Tracy, just about the same, gone through a couple of bad relationships but there's no sense of cynical or being hardened, and at the end, just been cured by Bond and turned subservient to him instead.

    But Fleming seemed to realized this mistakes and fired back with Kissy Suzuki.

    Tracy I think is much better written, but I can definitely understand those criticisms. The film has the benefit of Rigg and the fact that Tracy's mental illness/erratic behaviour is played down in favour of a character who is more... well, hardened and cynical really.

    Fleming certainly wrote some interesting female characters though. Tiffany Case, Honey Rider, Domino all being examples. I appreciate what he was trying to do with TSWLM, and it's interesting getting to see Bond through the eyes of a woman. Again, if any of the book is to be adapted for a film in the future, I don't necessarily want to see the motel scenes in a PTS, but a character like Viv. Someone who Bond rescues out of pure circumstance, and whom becomes infatuated with him in the same way Viv did. Perhaps after a time jump the Bond girl once again gets embroiled in another of the same villain's schemes and has to seek out Bond's help again. Her character arc could be about slowly coming to realise that despite Bond's 'heroism', he too is wrapped up in the same world of danger, crime and espionage as the villains are, and decides to part ways with him at the end.
  • #9 for me. I appreciated the experimental nature of the book because I felt at this point in the series Fleming was getting a little tired of Bond, or at least a bit more complacent in his writing. I really like how atmospheric the location is, the dark and stormy night of reflection in a pine forest before it becomes a tight little tale of suspense for the second half of the book. It’s a lot of fun seeing Bond from someone else’s perspective, and even though Sluggsy and Horror are pretty small time villains they suit the narrative rather well. I certainly wouldn’t have liked Fleming to do more Bond books like these, but as a one-off experiment to rejuvenate his creative spirit I think it does trick.
  • goldenswissroyalegoldenswissroyale Switzerland
    Posts: 4,378
    Well said @SomethingThatAteHim I feel the same and also like the book more than the majority. #7 in my actual ranking.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,758
    #9 for me. I appreciated the experimental nature of the book because I felt at this point in the series Fleming was getting a little tired of Bond, or at least a bit more complacent in his writing. I really like how atmospheric the location is, the dark and stormy night of reflection in a pine forest before it becomes a tight little tale of suspense for the second half of the book. It’s a lot of fun seeing Bond from someone else’s perspective, and even though Sluggsy and Horror are pretty small time villains they suit the narrative rather well. I certainly wouldn’t have liked Fleming to do more Bond books like these, but as a one-off experiment to rejuvenate his creative spirit I think it does trick.

    Couldn’t have said it better myself. I adore this one, it ranked 6th for me.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    Posts: 2,161
    I’m predicting DAF next.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,447
    I have a lot of love for TSWLM because of its experimental nature. Fleming wrote a fine book, regardless of his own thoughts. I especially like Viv's recollections of her first few lovers. Some nice comedy there, intentional or not.
  • TMWTGG was likewise my bottommost ranked Fleming. With the exception of the fantastic chapter at Tiffy's, it's evident Fleming had not given this final story the usual polish. But even so, there's much here that's just not up to par with his usual storytelling standards. As a reader, I was never really convinced by either Bond's successful brainwashing or de-brainwashing, and he has plenty of opportunities to take out Scaramanga and for some reason just never does. The climax on the train and in the mangrove swamp is exciting and memorable and I have overall fond memories of the book as it was the second Fleming I ever read, but this does take last place for me.

    I didn't have TSWLM quite this low, but I surprised myself a bit in placing it lower than I expected I would. That's not to say it isn't well written or exciting in its own way. I think applaud Fleming for being experimental and daring to tell a Bond tale from a female POV. There's a lot that really works here. The third act is particularly compelling. It's just up against some pretty tremendous competition.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    Posts: 2,161
    Like I said, I’ve always enjoyed it in the past (I first read it in the early ‘70s). It just really dropped steeply over my last couple of readings.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2022 Posts: 3,382
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Like I said, I’ve always enjoyed it in the past (I first read it in the early ‘70s). It just really dropped steeply over my last couple of readings.

    Early 70's? I wonder how old are you sir?
  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    Posts: 2,161
    Almost dead.
  • Posts: 12,242
    I loved TSWLM on my reading (I have only read each book once, so my opinions won’t be as valuable as others on this). I appreciated it for its unique and bold approach, it set itself apart greatly in the canon. Vivian is a character I grew attached to, and besides the dramatic beats that gelled with me, the action sequence is super good. I’m a big fan, had it at #5.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I loved TSWLM on my reading (I have only read each book once, so my opinions won’t be as valuable as others on this).

    Of course it is. Your perspective is a first time impression perspective. It is valuable to have some of those still in the mix.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,758
    As some of you already guessed, the next one to go out, at place 12, is:

    DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER

    michael-gillette-james-bond-diamonds-are-forever-bond-girl-2073522607.jpg

    Four last places were noted for DAF. Adding five more bottom 5’s to the mix and the overall bottom 3 was always going to be difficult to avoid for this one.

    DAF’s best rankings were three 6th places and two 7th places.

    In total DAF obtained 82 points.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    edited August 2022 Posts: 2,161
    I had this in the 13th placement. It’s pretty much always been there, but, as with all Fleming, there is plenty to enjoy. A great Bond Girl, great henchmen, great introspection by Bond, a great climax and a great secondary climax. It just has too many parts that seem to crawl. Even as a preteen is struck me that if Bond was so down on the mission, and questioning its significance, why should I care? I still love it, but something has to end up filling these bottom spots.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I put this in 7th. The Spangs may not be among the best villains, but I agree with @Birdleson that the henchmen are great (Wint and Gore in my edition). It also has some wonderful descriptive passages. The opening alone is among the best in the series.It is similar to some establishing shots in the films (That lizard in the desert in QOS always makes me think of this opening for some reason). And for my own part, I must admit that Tiffany Case is so much better in the novel.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2022 Posts: 3,382
    Gosh, I liked this novel, it's fun.
    The romance between Bond and Tiffany was probably the best part of this novel, much more developed, better and believable than Bond and Vesper relationship and Bond and Tracy relationship (Probably the best Romance that Fleming ever wrote).

    It's #10 in my rankings, just above OHMSS for me (mainly because of the romance and Tiffany Case being a more fleshed out and tough Bond Girl than Tracy), though in the film, it's quite the opposite.

    The Spang Brothers could have still adapted, but make it more like the Goldfinger treatment where it's improved upon the source material.
  • Posts: 6,726
    No. 9 for me! Had a really good time reading DAF
    recently! There are great passages in it, and really liked Tiffany Case here, moreso than in the film. Wint and Kidd come across as more thug like here, than the colourful characters of the movie! Agree it has a great climax too!
  • Posts: 2,742
    I think it was 9 for me too.

    There's a lot to like. Tiffany Case is one of Fleming's best female character in my opinion. There are some genuinely tense scenes such as Wint and Kidd killing the jockey, the climax in Spectreville. The opening always stood out for me too with the description of the scorpion (it's actually a very skilled bit of writing).

    I think the reason this one isn't higher for me are the usual ones people cite with this novel. The Spang Brothers are pretty weak. They don't feel like the main villains of a Bond adventure but the 'heavies' Bond has to get through to get to the actual baddie. Compared to LALD - a good chunk of which also takes place in America - this book also feels a bit too 'grounded' for my taste. Personally, I think Fleming's novels worked best when there was a sense of the fantastical - Bond having to investigate something routine and eventually finding himself wrapped up in this world of otherworldly, megalomaniac villains and unusual, but dangerous situations. It's all presented in a way that feels realistic and plausible in the context of the novel, but it's fundamentally absurd. For me, LALD had that - a sort of strange, dark edge to it with its references to voodoo and its otherworldly villain. There are shades of this in DAF with Spectreville, but overall the novel feels at points like it could be from any old detective novel, not necessarily a Bond novel.

    I'd love to see Spectreville in a future movie (I'm surprised it's not been done). I'd also like to see elements of Wint and Kidd adapted (I actually really like the film version of these characters which are certainly more fun/memorable, but the idea of two henchmen donning hoods to kill their victims would be great to see). Perhaps even the Spang Brothers could make an appearance - just hopefully not as the main villains.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,447
    I put this one in the sixth spot. I love Tiff in this book and that crazy Spectreville section with the locomotive is just deliciously crazy. It's an interesting book in my--eh--book.
  • Posts: 12,242
    @Thunderfinger Thank you!

    Looks like @Birdleson and I dragged this one down with the last place votes. I’m a little surprised to see more love for it, but I’m glad others were able to find more enjoyment than myself! It’s a good book to be sure, but for me it really is a matter of just preferring other ones. A small trend I’ve noticed at least for myself is that I’m not as crazy about the stories that use gangsters, like this one and GF. I find SMERSH and SPECTRE more interesting. I do like Tiffany - a LOT more than in the movie - and it’s still a good read of course, but yes this just had to be my last place entry.
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