Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    Posts: 2,161
    Journeyman is probably a better term than workmanlike.

    Yes.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    edited March 2022 Posts: 2,161
    talos7 wrote: »
    Semantics…

    Yes, but the point is that their is a certain hard-nosed, dependable and professional approach that a segment of us feel has been lacking for some time. Definition facilitates the conversation.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 3,960
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Journeyman is probably a better term than workmanlike.

    Yes.

    Sorry for my wording.
  • Jimjambond wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    The next James Bond will be the character of "James Bond"; it will just be a new incarnation/ adaptation of Ian Flemings literary character with no relation to any of the previous film adaptations.

    Aw Talos, you've spoilt it now. First you said it would be a different character, now you seem to be saying neither one thing or the other.

    Perhaps others could try to answer the question 'will the next James Bond actor play the same character as Daniel Craig' with a simple yes or no answer?

    It's the same character but different adaptation. Craig's version of Bond is dead. That adaptation chapter is now closed. Connery through to Brosnan's Bond is alive and is also an adaptation of a chapter that is closed. Bond number 7 will be playing the same character in a newly adapted chapter.

    Still such a shame that they chose that route for Craig's Bond though. They could very easily have had NTTD play out in a similar fashion, without the child and Madeline baggage, had Bond survive at the end, on a boat with some other female, and then end credits roll.

    When Bond 26 then comes in, with a new, younger actor, there would be no questions asked by pretty much anybody, as this is no different to an ageing Moore in 1985, and then a younger Dalton in 1987, who we assume shares the same timeline.

    The one saving grace for me of Craig Bond dying is that we won't have to endure anymore Vesper flashbacks or reminders of that past. At least Bond 26 gives us a clean slate.

    That's the ending that I wanted to see in a Craig Bond movie.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,350
    Journeyman is probably a better term than workmanlike.

    Basically, we are looking for the term for the opposite of an auteur(TM), right? Instead of someone with a "distinctive approach" and "unique style" who makes the film their own, we are looking for (the term for) someone who kind of subordinates themselves to the needs of the franchise and the film. Who doesn't see the need to change or invert or satirize the series to suit their own ideas, but looks to make the best possible film out of what is there in the genre and the previous series.
    I like the term artisan, eventhough it isn't widely used in the film space. Basically, the way I understand the words (not a native English-speaker) an artist would be someone who makes artistic pieces ment for artistic and aesthetic consideration. Little practical use; a lot of thought behind it. Probably a lot of unique pieces. An artisan still has a creative touch, but creates products with practical use. Thirdly, a craftsman (who is workmanlike) is still a highly-skilled worker but someone who does more basic things with little to no artistic and aesthetic intent and probably a lot of repetition and high volume.

    That was a lot of text on something totally uninteresting ^^
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 7,711
    Journeyman is probably a better term than workmanlike.

    Basically, we are looking for the term for the opposite of an auteur(TM), right? Instead of someone with a "distinctive approach" and "unique style" who makes the film their own, we are looking for (the term for) someone who kind of subordinates themselves to the needs of the franchise and the film. Who doesn't see the need to change or invert or satirize the series to suit their own ideas, but looks to make the best possible film out of what is there in the genre and the previous series.
    I like the term artisan, eventhough it isn't widely used in the film space. Basically, the way I understand the words (not a native English-speaker) an artist would be someone who makes artistic pieces ment for artistic and aesthetic consideration. Little practical use; a lot of thought behind it. Probably a lot of unique pieces. An artisan still has a creative touch, but creates products with practical use. Thirdly, a craftsman (who is workmanlike) is still a highly-skilled worker but someone who does more basic things with little to no artistic and aesthetic intent and probably a lot of repetition and high volume.

    That was a lot of text on something totally uninteresting ^^

    Nailed it.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 2022 Posts: 14,792
    Honestly I think I'd rather have someone who's really good than someone who's competent- it seems a slightly obvious choice to pick one over the other, surely? I look at LTK and think it would have been better with a director who excels at that sort of stuff, a McTiernan or Donner type rather than a pretty average, unflashy director.

    To me, the point of Bond films is that they're fairly ordinary, slightly hokey even, material which is elevated by the rather unnecessary talent working on it. John Barry, Ken Adam, Sean Connery, Sam Mendes, Roger Deakins etc. - massive (and Oscar-winning) talents who shouldn't really be working on something so silly, but their presence makes the Bond films into a much classier and better thing; much like Fleming's fantastic prose made his slightly silly spy plots so wonderful and delicious to read. So no, I don't think getting average journeymen directors fits Bond at all.
  • Posts: 9,669
    you know with Older actors coming back to roles they made famous becoming a trend perhaps a 5th Brosnan film would work of course i would prefer a third Dalton film but that is me.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    edited March 2022 Posts: 2,161
    @mtm
    It’s funny that you should mention Donner and McTiernan. The television show-like quality of LTK did bother me at the time. Around then (within a couple of years) DIE HARD and LETHAL WEAPON were released, and I remember in both instances sitting in the theater thinking “This is the type of excitement and polish, as well as that dialed in audience vibe, that I used to experience during Bond films.”
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 2022 Posts: 14,792
    Yes, I think the presence of Kamen doesn't help, because his exuberant, big music puts you instantly in mind of really well-directed, thrilling action films. And LTK just doesn't quite match them.

    I've even started to recently wonder if Dalton wouldn't have been better with another director. I look at some of his other films around the time like Rocketeer and he really bursts off the screen in a way he never did as Bond IMO.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    edited March 2022 Posts: 642
    LTK was such a drastic departure plot-wise from the previous decade's worth of Bonds that EON probably thought they needed Glenn in charge to make sure it stayed Bondian. A bigger director at the helm might have turned it into a full-blown American action movie.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited March 2022 Posts: 7,965
    It's funny that Donner and McTiernan were mentioned as I don't consider them auteurs. They fit more the journeyman mould based on their styles - simple, clean and efficient. They're not really flashy at all, they just have a great knack for tension and action. I don't see too many modern equivalents in that regard. If we did, I'd compel EON to snap them up.

    But I take the point that Glen was clearly inferior to both (I'd put Campbell above Glen, personally) and another director just like either of those two would have given both TLD and LTK a bit more energy while still kept the intense performances and grittier action that all Dalton fans love.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited March 2022 Posts: 5,860
    mtm wrote: »
    Yep, Campbell, as with Mendes, can do 'Bond', whereas I feel like Forster and Fukunaga don't quite get it.

    Agree about Campbell, and Mendes for SF, but not for SP.

    SP should have been Craig's YOLT, leading into his final TMWTGG. It would have been nice to see the final two-novel Bond arc play out, but Eon was stuck because they didn't have Craig signed to two films in 2014. (I don't think said arc would work with two different actors. Way too confusing for the new Bond/the general audience. A brainwashed yet new Bond would lead to all sorts of code name theory confusion for the viewers.)

    And don't forget Mendes is the one who brought along John Logan and Thomas Newman, clearly two of the weaker contributors to SP.

    A major issue with NTTD (the so-so chemistry between Seydoux and Craig) started with Mendes.

    A chemistry thought experiment: what if Vesper didn't die in CR, and instead she took the place of Madeleine in NTTD? Would that make you think about NTTD differently?
  • Posts: 12,828
    I’d be happy with the second coming of Glen myself, love his films and for me the fancy cinematography and everything else is nice, but not essential. But the thing is, that’s very much a fanboy’s perspective. I don’t know if Bond is popular enough to sustain the Cubby production line approach anymore. If you’re as popular as Bond was back in the 60s, or Marvel is now, then you can get away with churning them out. But otherwise, I reckon the audience will expect a certain level of polish, particularly as auteur driven blockbusters are so common now. I don’t think EON would want to have a film by a Spottiswoode type against competition by people like Dennis Villenueve and Matt Reeves. And I don’t think there’s really an appetite for more than a big, headline grabbing Bond film every few years.
  • Posts: 3,209
    Jimjambond wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    The next James Bond will be the character of "James Bond"; it will just be a new incarnation/ adaptation of Ian Flemings literary character with no relation to any of the previous film adaptations.

    Aw Talos, you've spoilt it now. First you said it would be a different character, now you seem to be saying neither one thing or the other.

    Perhaps others could try to answer the question 'will the next James Bond actor play the same character as Daniel Craig' with a simple yes or no answer?

    It's the same character but different adaptation. Craig's version of Bond is dead. That adaptation chapter is now closed. Connery through to Brosnan's Bond is alive and is also an adaptation of a chapter that is closed. Bond number 7 will be playing the same character in a newly adapted chapter.

    Still such a shame that they chose that route for Craig's Bond though. They could very easily have had NTTD play out in a similar fashion, without the child and Madeline baggage, had Bond survive at the end, on a boat with some other female, and then end credits roll.

    When Bond 26 then comes in, with a new, younger actor, there would be no questions asked by pretty much anybody, as this is no different to an ageing Moore in 1985, and then a younger Dalton in 1987, who we assume shares the same timeline.

    The one saving grace for me of Craig Bond dying is that we won't have to endure anymore Vesper flashbacks or reminders of that past. At least Bond 26 gives us a clean slate.

    That's the ending that I wanted to see in a Craig Bond movie.

    Nice to know some fans got the ending they wanted then.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 2022 Posts: 14,792
    echo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Yep, Campbell, as with Mendes, can do 'Bond', whereas I feel like Forster and Fukunaga don't quite get it.

    Agree about Campbell, and Mendes for SF, but not for SP.

    SP should have been Craig's YOLT, leading into his final TMWTGG. It would have been nice to see the final two-novel Bond arc play out, but Eon was stuck because they didn't have Craig signed to two films in 2014. (I don't think said arc would work with two different actors. Way too confusing for the new Bond/the general audience. A brainwashed yet new Bond would lead to all sorts of code name theory confusion for the viewers.)

    And don't forget Mendes is the one who brought along John Logan and Thomas Newman, clearly two of the weaker contributors to SP.

    A major issue with NTTD (the so-so chemistry between Seydoux and Craig) started with Mendes.

    A chemistry thought experiment: what if Vesper didn't die in CR, and instead she took the place of Madeleine in NTTD? Would that make you think about NTTD differently?

    Mendes lost track of the story in SP, but he still made it feel like Bond, which is what I’m talking about. I also very much disagree that Newman was a weakness: I much prefer his score to Zimmer’s, and again: it feels more Bond to me.
    It's funny that Donner and McTiernan were mentioned as I don't consider them auteurs. They fit more the journeyman mould based on their styles - simple, clean and efficient. They're not really flashy at all, they just have a great knack for tension and action.

    I don’t think I agree, but regardless: they’re famous directors good enough to be known by their names alone, which Glen and even Campbell weren’t; and Eon certainly would never have considered anyone like them pre-90s.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,406
    I'd rather have a "journeyman" director, who knows how to, direct action, tell a good story and how to allow great actors to shine in character moments

    I enjoyed Fukunaga's direction in NTTD, especially in most of the action, but I did miss the style aspect of Bond. I'd happily have Fukunaga back for 26, I'd just give him more time to perfect the script and story
  • Posts: 2,544
    If the Bond series wanted to go with a more 'craftsman-like' director along the lines of Glen or Campbell (ie. someone not necessarily in control of the script/story or its 'themes' in the same way that Fukunaga was, but someone who is hired to take the script and direct the best film possible) perhaps they'd be better off looking at television directors? They say it's a writer's medium, and directors are expected to jump in for one or two episodes, often in the middle of the series, and essentially make the best possible version of that script. Maybe someone like Thomas Vincent who directed episodes of The Bodyguard, or Leslie Linda Glatter who directed episodes of Homeland etc.

    I would say that in order for this to work the creative team, especially the scriptwriting team, needs a bit of a shake up for Bond 26. We've had situations in the last two Bond films where so many different writers have had input into the script. Sometimes it's a positive, but other times we've had things like Blofeld and Bond being foster brothers, Bond 'dying' due to the main actor essentially demanding a dramatic death scene (presumably after watching Logan). I do think Spectre would have been a much stronger film had the script gone through another couple of drafts, and NTTD would have been improved by someone saying 'no' more often to certain things. Basically I think they need less writers and perhaps a 'creative head' who will be able to bridge the story ideas into the direction of the film (in a sense this might be a case for the 'auteur' director, but oh well).
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,350
    Come to think of it, there is a chance that they try to install someone who isn't the official director of the films but has some kind of creative oversight. That of course is a role the Eon leadership kind of fulfils, but with MGW possibly stepping down, they might do a bigger shake-up and get someone akin to a showrunner or an executive director in to oversee the creative development of the next few films.
    I don't think it's super likely and I have no idea whether that would be a good thing or not. I think having someone be in creative control without necessarily being the director could be good, but it could of course also just be a source of irritation between the Heads of Department, Director, Producers and Actors (it basically hinges on whether the person is good, lol).
    Another problem is that I'm not aware of any tried and true Bond veterans except for the Broccolis and P&W who would have the credibility to step into such a role - maybe there are more behind the scenes people who could do this? - and it would be a huge gamble to pick someone who hasn't actually worked on these films for such an important role.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,792
    I would imagine it would be even harder to recruit directors if there was someone like that involved who took away their decisions.
  • Posts: 14,753
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes, I think the presence of Kamen doesn't help, because his exuberant, big music puts you instantly in mind of really well-directed, thrilling action films. And LTK just doesn't quite match them.

    I've even started to recently wonder if Dalton wouldn't have been better with another director. I look at some of his other films around the time like Rocketeer and he really bursts off the screen in a way he never did as Bond IMO.

    I never had any doubt in my mind that Dalton was not with the right director for his tenure. He needed someone that played his strengths, particularly for LTK.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,350
    mtm wrote: »
    I would imagine it would be even harder to recruit directors if there was someone like that involved who took away their decisions.

    Absolutely. You probably would have to go with proper craftsmen directors from TV like Miguel Sapochnik or Lesli Linka Glatter, who was already mentioned and even then "We want you for the biggest project of your career, but you won't get the full credit for it" isn't the greatest sales pitch.
  • Posts: 1,536
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes, I think the presence of Kamen doesn't help, because his exuberant, big music puts you instantly in mind of really well-directed, thrilling action films. And LTK just doesn't quite match them.

    I've even started to recently wonder if Dalton wouldn't have been better with another director. I look at some of his other films around the time like Rocketeer and he really bursts off the screen in a way he never did as Bond IMO.

    I never had any doubt in my mind that Dalton was not with the right director for his tenure. He needed someone that played his strengths, particularly for LTK.

    Nor the appropriate writers !!! LTK, in particular, was a TV Movie of the Week with the Rogue Law Enforcement Agent going after the Big Bad Drug Dealer...ugh. With the stoooooooooopid insertions of the TV preacher bit and the pre-teen jealousy bit by Pam. Good grief...
  • Posts: 14,753
    Since62 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes, I think the presence of Kamen doesn't help, because his exuberant, big music puts you instantly in mind of really well-directed, thrilling action films. And LTK just doesn't quite match them.

    I've even started to recently wonder if Dalton wouldn't have been better with another director. I look at some of his other films around the time like Rocketeer and he really bursts off the screen in a way he never did as Bond IMO.

    I never had any doubt in my mind that Dalton was not with the right director for his tenure. He needed someone that played his strengths, particularly for LTK.

    Nor the appropriate writers !!! LTK, in particular, was a TV Movie of the Week with the Rogue Law Enforcement Agent going after the Big Bad Drug Dealer...ugh. With the stoooooooooopid insertions of the TV preacher bit and the pre-teen jealousy bit by Pam. Good grief...

    Yes I know LTK here is very much loved but I find it very flawed to say the least. I always felt like it was a generic 80s action movie where Bond has a loooong cameo, as if he'd been lost outside his own world.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    edited March 2022 Posts: 2,161
    I found LTK embarrassingly weak and cheap looking at the time. Over the years I have come to enjoy and appreciate it. Like MR, the extremes it went to become more palatable as the series course corrects. Same with QOS. If the EON had continued distancing itself from the more fanciful and stylish troupes I doubt I ever would have come to love QOS. But the far more bombastic and traditional SF allowed me to see it as a one off; a successful (in my view) experimentation.
  • Posts: 1,678
    To TV as Amazon announces the new 007 reality show...............007's Road to Millions!
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 7,954
    delfloria wrote: »
    To TV as Amazon announces the new 007 reality show...............007's Road to Millions!

    Is this a reality contest?

    Didn’t see this coming, at all, 😂
  • Posts: 1,536
    Well, I supposed we have an idea now where the new Bond actor and other role players will be announced...and director...and musical composer...and theme song writer and performer...and set designer...and car...as well as the new film's title...and locations...and release date...etc., etc., etc...
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,459
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I personally thought Fukunaga nailed the Bondian aesthetic and tone. The entire Cuba sequence was one of the most Bondian sequences in the whole of Craig’s era.
    I quite agree about this.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited March 2022 Posts: 12,459
    I do prefer Fukunaga with Sandgren to return, based on what they gave us so beautifully in NTTD and because both are talented enough to not to want to just repeat themselves. Cary is a good storyteller. Darn near everything depends upon the next script. And of course the tone that EON decide to go with is important.

    The next Bond movie, in my opinion (as is everything I write, of course), should be different from Craig's entire era - without copying, resorting to try to really emulate the style from previous Bond eras. Spectre is an example of giving us a "lighter" Bond that just did not work for me. It felt, overall, hollow.

    So yes, I would be really happy if Cary directed again. I'll have to think about any other directors. I don't want a "hot, new" or very "auteur" director coming in and stamping the next Bond movie with a style that doesn't fit well for Bond. I think Cary really gave us great Bondian moments and overall tone in NTTD. EON and the writers are the real focus and manufacturers of what will be next in store for 007.
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