NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - Discuss Hans Zimmer's Score

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 6,843
    All composers sound the same to an extent. I remember OUT OF AFRICA started airing on TV, and during the opening credits I was thinking that it sounded an awful lot like John Barry’s romantic cues from Bond. Lo and behold, his composer credit pops up! I had the same experience with DARKMAN noticing that it sounded like Danny Elfman.

    Zimmer does a good job utilizing the Bond sound for the most part, but right around the climax the tracks like “I’ll Be Right Back” and “Open the Doors” has a very Zimmery feel to it. And of course “Final Ascent”.
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 432
    Credit where credit is due, it's much better than I thought it would be. Though how much is due to Zimmer and how much is due to the 'co-writer' is a matter of debate.
  • I believe in “The Factory” Zimmer flat out reuses his TDK score. I’m listening and thinking “wait a minute, this is TDK”.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,322
    I believe in “The Factory” Zimmer flat out reuses his TDK score. I’m listening and thinking “wait a minute, this is TDK”.

    Yeah, for me I definitely get those vibes as well.
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    Posts: 1,165
    Not even TDK, that tune is straight from Batman Begins.
  • Posts: 5,863
    An article on the contributions of GE's John Altman to the NTTD score.

    https://londonjazznews.com/2021/10/02/john-altman-putting-some-big-band-brass-into-no-time-to-die/
  • goldenswissroyalegoldenswissroyale Switzerland
    Posts: 3,881
    mattjoes wrote: »
    An article on the contributions of GE's John Altman to the NTTD score.

    https://londonjazznews.com/2021/10/02/john-altman-putting-some-big-band-brass-into-no-time-to-die/

    Very interesting. I had no idea. Thanks for sharing.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,292
    Minion wrote: »
    Not even TDK, that tune is straight from Batman Begins.

    And that BB melody was straight from Black Rain.
  • Posts: 12,436
    Enjoyed it, but Arnold has the best sound track for Casino Royale.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 1,768
    I enjoy the soundtrack, but I do wish Zimmer had reused Madeline's theme from Spectre or created something new. Madeline's theme is one of few highlights from the Spectre soundtrack and it would given her character more familiarity.
    The moment the cue from OHMSS was played it took me out of NTTD. It felt cheap and somewhat rushed. Another problem is it made me compare Madeline to Tracy and I don't think that was the intention
  • Posts: 5,863
    mattjoes wrote: »
    An article on the contributions of GE's John Altman to the NTTD score.

    https://londonjazznews.com/2021/10/02/john-altman-putting-some-big-band-brass-into-no-time-to-die/

    Very interesting. I had no idea. Thanks for sharing.

    You're welcome.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 21,997
    Zimmer's score for Dune reflects much of his work for Dark Phoenix as well. I guess composers are like that. They are in a certain "zone" and either consciously or subconsciously they borrow from themselves. They mostly get away with that too, since few people will pull out the magnifying glass when listening to a score the way we do, I'm sure. ;-) Either way, Elfman, Barry, Williams, Silvestri, Horner, Goldsmith, ... they all have or had their "sound", and sometimes they came up with something surprisingly new and different, and sometimes they stuck to their signature sound hard and heavy.

    I am also a firm believer in the Zimmer "factory theory" by the way. It's not a secret, after all, that Zimmer continues to work with other people who contribute to "his" music just as much. He's like the Greek writer Homer in that sense--'Hans Zimmer' is the brand that represents a musical collective. And there's nothing wrong with that since the outcome is what matters.

    In my opinion, Zimmer is/are now in a better "zone" than he/they was/were 20 years ago, so I'm glad he did a Bond score now rather than in the days of DAD. If he could do another M:I now, it would most likely sound a lot different (and better) than in M:I 2 as well.
  • MalloryMallory Do mosquitoes have friends?
    edited November 2021 Posts: 1,794
    Having now listened to Zimmer & Mazzaro's soundtrack for a while now, my thoughts are:

    Positives
    • Captures the feel of what a Bond soundtrack should sound like.
    • Does incorporate the Eilish song, though not enough for my liking.
    • Some excellent standout tracks - Matera (with the exception of the below), Cuba Chase, Someone was Here, Back to MI6.
    • Works well within the context of the film.
    • Whilst not in the soundtrack release, the licenced music is effective and some good choices. Dalida at the beginning, the music at Q's house, the Jamaican bar etc.

    Negatives
    • The James Bond theme is still highly elusive. We only get one real blast of it (Back to MI6). Other than that (and the very end of the credits) it barely features. And there were some obvious places they missed - for example, the Matera DB5 doing the doughnuts would've been vastly improved by the full James Bond theme. As would the bike jump.
    • Like the film, I feel the first half of the score is better than the second.
    • Tracks like 'The Factory' and 'I'll be Right Back' are straight lifts from The Dark Knight films.
    • I am not a fan of the use of 'We Have All The Time In The World' and the OHMSS theme within the soundtrack. Unnecessary.

    Overall, if I were ranking the first half it would be a solid 8/10, and then probably a 5/10 for the second half, giving an overall ranking of 7/10. Its decent, given its short development time.

    But (and perhaps controversially on these forums) I prefer both of Newman's efforts.
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,726
    Mallory wrote: »
    Having now listened to Zimmer & Mazzaro's soundtrack for a while now, my thoughts are:

    Positives
    • Captures the feel of what a Bond soundtrack should sound like.
    • Does incorporate the Eilish song, though not enough for my liking.
    • Some excellent standout tracks - Matera (with the exception of the below), Cuba Chase, Someone was Here, Back to MI6.
    • Works well within the context of the film.
    • Whilst not in the soundtrack release, the licenced music is effective and some good choices. Dalida at the beginning, the music at Q's house, the Jamaican bar etc.

    Negatives
    • The James Bond theme is still highly elusive. We only get one real blast of it (Back to MI6). Other than that (and the very end of the credits) it barely features. And there were some obvious places they missed - for example, the Matera DB5 doing the doughnuts would've been vastly improved by the full James Bond theme. As would the bike jump.
    • Like the film, I feel the first half of the score is better than the second.
    • Tracks like 'The Factory' and 'I'll be Right Back' are straight lifts from The Dark Knight films.
    • I am not a fan of the use of 'We Have All The Time In The World' and the OHMSS theme within the soundtrack. Unnecessary.

    Overall, if I were ranking the first half it would be a solid 8/10, and then probably a 5/10 for the second half, giving an overall ranking of 7/10. Its decent, given its short development time.

    But (and perhaps controversially on these forums) I prefer both of Newman's efforts.

    Curious, as I felt it was actually OVERused, other than in the latter stages of the film
  • goldenswissroyalegoldenswissroyale Switzerland
    Posts: 3,881
    Bond theme overused? No, I feel like @Mallory : the classic Bond theme was only heard when Bond is driving to MI6. Was this really the lost bondian moment in the movie? But I have to admit that the variation of the theme used when the DB5 reveals his guns is great.
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,726
    When Bond drives into town in Jamaica
    During the shootout in Cuba

    Surely that also counts as the Bond theme
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,322
    Bond theme overused? No, I feel like @Mallory : the classic Bond theme was only heard when Bond is driving to MI6. Was this really the lost bondian moment in the movie? But I have to admit that the variation of the theme used when the DB5 reveals his guns is great.

    Yeah, that low horns blasting of the Bond theme is great. Just watched it again last night and it pops up four times:
    Square Escape when the guns are revealed,
    Cuba Chase after Bond does a shot with Paloma,
    I’ll Be Right Back, after Bond says goodbye to Madeleine on the boat on the Poison Island and goes into Commando mode,
    End Credits.
  • MalloryMallory Do mosquitoes have friends?
    Posts: 1,794
    Bond theme overused? No, I feel like @Mallory : the classic Bond theme was only heard when Bond is driving to MI6. Was this really the lost bondian moment in the movie? But I have to admit that the variation of the theme used when the DB5 reveals his guns is great.

    Yeah, that low horns blasting of the Bond theme is great. Just watched it again last night and it pops up four times:
    Square Escape when the guns are revealed,
    Cuba Chase after Bond does a shot with Paloma,
    I’ll Be Right Back, after Bond says goodbye to Madeleine on the boat on the Poison Island and goes into Commando mode,
    End Credits.

    I believe Zimmer referred to it as the “danger motif”, something they created to use in the film.

    However, all of those you mentioned should have been the full on James Bond theme.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,322
    It was disappointing that the Bond Theme in the trailer over the Matera chase wasn't used in the film.
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 811
    I'm starting to think folks just have very different definitions of what "The James Bond Theme" means when it comes to use on a modern score.

    In terms of a full-blasting reprise of the classic Barry orchestration, yes, it only really appears in 'Back to MI6' in that spirit.

    (But that's been fairly common in Bond films for a long time now, to only hear it in its "glory" once (if at all). Heck, it was even common back in the 1960s when Barry pioneered it! By this standard, off the top of my head, I think it only appears "once" in From Russia with Love, You Only Live Twice, On Her Majesty's Secret Service, etc. - and comically, never in Goldfinger which, to me, is still the most James Bondiest of James Bond film scores that an orchestra has ever James Bonded.

    Like others, I hear the Bond theme everywhere on the NTTD to score because to me the definition is when pieces of it are re-interpreted, re-orchestrated, and used either explicitly or to infuse other melodies. By this logic, I find Die Another Day, Quantum of Solace, No Time to Die, and (yes, gasp!) Skyfall as being all fairly "Bond theme-heavy" scores.

    Again, off the top of my head in NTTD (and using the above logic): I hear it in the Gun Barrel, Message from an Old Friend, Square Escape, Someone Was Here, What Have You Done, Shouldn't We Get to Know Each Other, Cuba Chase, Back to MI6, Norway Chase, Gearing Up, I'll Be Right Back, Opening the Doors....I mean, geeze...

    And, similarly to both the songs for Casino Royale and Skyfall, the "DNA" of the title tune in No Time to Die is very, very, very built from the same harmonic DNA of the Bond theme itself, so you can almost argue that those reprises are edging being references to it as well.

  • edited November 2021 Posts: 1,314
    I’ve had this on once every day for the last few days. I really really like it particularly the first half.

    For me the bond theme (or at least the 3 note rising and descending motif) is everywhere. I think the main theme is rather too celebratory for a moment where bond suspects his girlfriend of trying to collude to murder him.
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 811
    Matt007 wrote: »
    I’ve had this on once every day for the last few days. I really really like it particularly the first half.

    For me the bond them (or at least the 3 note rising and descending motif) is everywhere. I think the main theme is rather too celebratory for a moment where bond suspects his girlfriend of trying to collide to murder him.

    That's a really good point, and I think it's a key reason why we don't hear it the way some people would like to.

    James Bond music has evolved for the modern era, just like the character. The "James Bond theme" in its original orchestration doesn't just fit like it used to.

    We all have wonderfully nostalgic memories of it being used under action scenes or Bond arriving somewhere, etc., in different times and different films. But it's such an inherently triumphant victory sound, that reprising it in its entirety just simply doesn't fit a lot of the actual scenes in the modern films that the score needs to support.

    At the end of the day, the directors/editors/composers have to use it where it's appropriate. I'm not saying you couldn't make it work in a modern Bond film, but I just think it would take some very, very tonally appropriate scenes to do it.

    You'd need a sustained 1:45 of action or celebration where James Bond is at his utmost cool/victorious/ready-for-on-the-nose-cheering. Craig's era simply hasn't contained a sequence like that. It's too, frankly, real. It allows for wonderful flourishes and references of it, but Craig's Bond simply doesn't step out of the dramatic stakes of the film for sustained periods in that way. The best and closest spot was, honestly, the end credits of CR after he said his name -- right where it was used.

    (...although I think a case could have been made to use it at the end of SPECTRE, instead of reprising the Skyfall arrangement...)
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 1,314
    AgentM72 wrote: »
    Matt007 wrote: »
    I’ve had this on once every day for the last few days. I really really like it particularly the first half.

    For me the bond them (or at least the 3 note rising and descending motif) is everywhere. I think the main theme is rather too celebratory for a moment where bond suspects his girlfriend of trying to collide to murder him.

    That's a really good point, and I think it's a key reason why we don't hear it the way some people would like to.

    James Bond music has evolved for the modern era, just like the character. The "James Bond theme" in its original orchestration doesn't just fit like it used to.

    We all have wonderfully nostalgic memories of it being used under action scenes or Bond arriving somewhere, etc., in different times and different films. But it's such an inherently triumphant victory sound, that reprising it in its entirety just simply doesn't fit a lot of the actual scenes in the modern films that the score needs to support.

    At the end of the day, the directors/editors/composers have to use it where it's appropriate. I'm not saying you couldn't make it work in a modern Bond film, but I just think it would take some very, very tonally appropriate scenes to do it.

    You'd need a sustained 1:45 of action or celebration where James Bond is at his utmost cool/victorious/ready-for-on-the-nose-cheering. Craig's era simply hasn't contained a sequence like that. It's too, frankly, real. It allows for wonderful flourishes and references of it, but Craig's Bond simply doesn't step out of the dramatic stakes of the film for sustained periods in that way. The best and closest spot was, honestly, the end credits of CR after he said his name -- right where it was used.

    (...although I think a case could have been made to use it at the end of SPECTRE, instead of reprising the Skyfall arrangement...)

    Really I think it depends on the performance. Like you get the bond theme in a very different manner in say, the tank chase in Goldeneye (bombastic action) and lazenby driving just before Tracy appears at the beginning of OHmSS (so much swing it’s just fantastic). I could see the swing version playing when bond returns to London in NTTD
  • Posts: 811
    Matt007 wrote: »
    AgentM72 wrote: »
    Matt007 wrote: »
    I’ve had this on once every day for the last few days. I really really like it particularly the first half.

    For me the bond them (or at least the 3 note rising and descending motif) is everywhere. I think the main theme is rather too celebratory for a moment where bond suspects his girlfriend of trying to collide to murder him.

    That's a really good point, and I think it's a key reason why we don't hear it the way some people would like to.

    James Bond music has evolved for the modern era, just like the character. The "James Bond theme" in its original orchestration doesn't just fit like it used to.

    We all have wonderfully nostalgic memories of it being used under action scenes or Bond arriving somewhere, etc., in different times and different films. But it's such an inherently triumphant victory sound, that reprising it in its entirety just simply doesn't fit a lot of the actual scenes in the modern films that the score needs to support.

    At the end of the day, the directors/editors/composers have to use it where it's appropriate. I'm not saying you couldn't make it work in a modern Bond film, but I just think it would take some very, very tonally appropriate scenes to do it.

    You'd need a sustained 1:45 of action or celebration where James Bond is at his utmost cool/victorious/ready-for-on-the-nose-cheering. Craig's era simply hasn't contained a sequence like that. It's too, frankly, real. It allows for wonderful flourishes and references of it, but Craig's Bond simply doesn't step out of the dramatic stakes of the film for sustained periods in that way. The best and closest spot was, honestly, the end credits of CR after he said his name -- right where it was used.

    (...although I think a case could have been made to use it at the end of SPECTRE, instead of reprising the Skyfall arrangement...)

    Really I think it depends on the performance. Like you get the bond theme in a very different manner in say, the tank chase in Goldeneye (bombastic action) and lazenby driving just before Tracy appears at the beginning of OHmSS (so much swing it’s just fantastic). I could see the swing version playing when bond returns to London in NTTD

    All the bits have slightly different connotations to me, which typically reflects how they're used.

    Iconic vamp - suspense, hype
    Guitar riff - badass
    Swing section - victory
    Bee-bop/swing section - a lot of victory
    Very last bit + guitar twang - anything unexpected and/or worthy of an eyebrow raise
  • Posts: 5,863
    AgentM72 wrote: »
    Matt007 wrote: »
    AgentM72 wrote: »
    Matt007 wrote: »
    I’ve had this on once every day for the last few days. I really really like it particularly the first half.

    For me the bond them (or at least the 3 note rising and descending motif) is everywhere. I think the main theme is rather too celebratory for a moment where bond suspects his girlfriend of trying to collide to murder him.

    That's a really good point, and I think it's a key reason why we don't hear it the way some people would like to.

    James Bond music has evolved for the modern era, just like the character. The "James Bond theme" in its original orchestration doesn't just fit like it used to.

    We all have wonderfully nostalgic memories of it being used under action scenes or Bond arriving somewhere, etc., in different times and different films. But it's such an inherently triumphant victory sound, that reprising it in its entirety just simply doesn't fit a lot of the actual scenes in the modern films that the score needs to support.

    At the end of the day, the directors/editors/composers have to use it where it's appropriate. I'm not saying you couldn't make it work in a modern Bond film, but I just think it would take some very, very tonally appropriate scenes to do it.

    You'd need a sustained 1:45 of action or celebration where James Bond is at his utmost cool/victorious/ready-for-on-the-nose-cheering. Craig's era simply hasn't contained a sequence like that. It's too, frankly, real. It allows for wonderful flourishes and references of it, but Craig's Bond simply doesn't step out of the dramatic stakes of the film for sustained periods in that way. The best and closest spot was, honestly, the end credits of CR after he said his name -- right where it was used.

    (...although I think a case could have been made to use it at the end of SPECTRE, instead of reprising the Skyfall arrangement...)

    Really I think it depends on the performance. Like you get the bond theme in a very different manner in say, the tank chase in Goldeneye (bombastic action) and lazenby driving just before Tracy appears at the beginning of OHmSS (so much swing it’s just fantastic). I could see the swing version playing when bond returns to London in NTTD

    All the bits have slightly different connotations to me, which typically reflects how they're used.

    Iconic vamp - suspense, hype
    Guitar riff - badass
    Swing section - victory
    Bee-bop/swing section - a lot of victory
    Very last bit + guitar twang - anything unexpected and/or worthy of an eyebrow raise

    Great summary. Very accurate in my opinion.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,322
    My hot take here is that I think Johnny Marr was overused; not needed. His guitar lines never seemed to really fit in the more modern orchestrations. I preferred the gunbarrel music in Spectre, which were essentially the same minus Marr.
  • Posts: 526
    Top 3 worst theme song ever for a Bond movie. Only one from the Craig era that I didn’t love. Theme songs are supposed to get you excited for the film! This did the exact opposite for me. Too blase. Most of the other music in the film was ok, I guess.
  • Posts: 1,314
    AgentM72 wrote: »
    Matt007 wrote: »
    AgentM72 wrote: »
    Matt007 wrote: »
    I’ve had this on once every day for the last few days. I really really like it particularly the first half.

    For me the bond them (or at least the 3 note rising and descending motif) is everywhere. I think the main theme is rather too celebratory for a moment where bond suspects his girlfriend of trying to collide to murder him.

    That's a really good point, and I think it's a key reason why we don't hear it the way some people would like to.

    James Bond music has evolved for the modern era, just like the character. The "James Bond theme" in its original orchestration doesn't just fit like it used to.

    We all have wonderfully nostalgic memories of it being used under action scenes or Bond arriving somewhere, etc., in different times and different films. But it's such an inherently triumphant victory sound, that reprising it in its entirety just simply doesn't fit a lot of the actual scenes in the modern films that the score needs to support.

    At the end of the day, the directors/editors/composers have to use it where it's appropriate. I'm not saying you couldn't make it work in a modern Bond film, but I just think it would take some very, very tonally appropriate scenes to do it.

    You'd need a sustained 1:45 of action or celebration where James Bond is at his utmost cool/victorious/ready-for-on-the-nose-cheering. Craig's era simply hasn't contained a sequence like that. It's too, frankly, real. It allows for wonderful flourishes and references of it, but Craig's Bond simply doesn't step out of the dramatic stakes of the film for sustained periods in that way. The best and closest spot was, honestly, the end credits of CR after he said his name -- right where it was used.

    (...although I think a case could have been made to use it at the end of SPECTRE, instead of reprising the Skyfall arrangement...)

    Really I think it depends on the performance. Like you get the bond theme in a very different manner in say, the tank chase in Goldeneye (bombastic action) and lazenby driving just before Tracy appears at the beginning of OHmSS (so much swing it’s just fantastic). I could see the swing version playing when bond returns to London in NTTD

    All the bits have slightly different connotations to me, which typically reflects how they're used.

    Iconic vamp - suspense, hype
    Guitar riff - badass
    Swing section - victory
    Bee-bop/swing section - a lot of victory
    Very last bit + guitar twang - anything unexpected and/or worthy of an eyebrow raise

    Ha ha. This is wonderful. Especially the eyebrow raise. Bravo.
  • Arnold should return. It would be nice for him to at least compose the next Bond film for the reboot.

    I would be very surprised if Team Zimmer doesn't return for Bond 26.

  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,726
    Arnold should return. It would be nice for him to at least compose the next Bond film for the reboot.

    I would be very surprised if Team Zimmer doesn't return for Bond 26.

    Honestly, though I adore a lot of David Arnold's work for Bond (QoS, CR, TND mainly), I really think he has done all he can with his scores. He just doesn't have the creative repertoire to add anything further and would risk recycling his own cues...
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