NO TIME TO DIE - Questions Thread

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  • The one question that really makes Bond's death feel contrived to me, is why didn't Bond leave on the boat with Madeleine and Mathilde? Bond is past his prime age wise and has a lot more to lose (his new family). Nomi is a younger agent, in her prime. Presumably she's as devoted to saving the world, and in fact someone in her position might step in and make Bond leave on the boat so she can finish the job and he and family can be safe.

    Nomi has gained a lot of respect for Bond, so wouldn't she step in to finish the mission to ensure that Madeleine and Mathilde don't lose James? Plus, Safin can't hold anything over Nomi like he can with Bond.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,205
    I am struggling with the ticking clock element as well and I assume we are going to be discussing this for years to come.
    I think it is mostly about Bond not trusting anyone with this and wnnting to be sure that it is 100% gone. He doesn't know who is coming on those boats and whether he can take them, he doesn't know where Safin is, the safest bet is to blow it all to s**t as he said to Nomi previously.
    I think this is one of those things that sadly fall through the cracks a little bit: Felix philosophizes (is that a word?!) about our problematic leaders; Bond warns Nomi that we are in a bad spot if MI6 and CIA aren't talking to each other; M is the origin of this entire fiasco; the representative of the State Department turns out to be a double agent; Q's plane is already being buzzed by Russian MiGs; all M can tell Tanner, when all their allies ask what is going on, is "Don't tell them anything.".
    There's an undercurrent of not being able to trust governments/authorities, international relations being totally broken and every agency potentially being undermined. So the free radical Bond decides that it is much safer to blow it all to hell then to set up some kind of international committee on deciding what to do with the weapon. M's resignation when giving the Admiral the go ahead to bomb the island is not just because it might kill Bond, it is also because he realizes that the international intelligence community has really, really failed on this - and if we want to go one step further, he might be reflecting on whether that is his fault, because he torpedoed Nine Eyes...
  • Birdleson wrote: »
    The reasoning itself is the answer. She’s young, she has her whole life ahead of her, Bond is old, he’s had a good run. And he’s Bond, he wouldn’t abide. I’m not a fan of killing off Bond, but there’s no way the character would allow that to happen or I would except that. That would actually be worse than the death.

    I don't think it's clear cut enough to be honest. Bond being older is fair, but it also results in Mathilde losing a parent, which some would argue is worse than Nomi dying, unless of course she has a family too. In my opinion, the life of someone (a spy, no less, who is rather unlikely to be able to settle down) who's life is ahead of them, while more valuable than that of an aging person, is not more valuable than the life of someone who has a young child depending on them. Weren't both Madeleine and Safin scarred for life because their parents were killed when they were young?

    Also, is Bond (a flawed character) so "altruistic" that he'll risk denying his own child a father because Nomi is younger? I'm not sure there are many people who would make such a choice, and I am not sure it's the right one either...

    Overall, I just feel if you're going to kill Bond, it needs to be a little more convincing. This isn't even touching on the whole ticking clock issue and why they can't just all leave, send the missiles, then a small army to assess the damage and kill Safin and re-strike if necessary. And yes, I get the international tensions, but striking the island escalates them regardless.
  • zebrafishzebrafish <°)))< in Octopussy's garden in the shade
    Posts: 3,853
    Nice review @thextractor123 , but you are in the wrong thread. There is an extra one for fan reviews.
  • BelinusBelinus Scotland
    Posts: 48
    What was Madeleine’s big secret? Was it the man in the white mask? Is so, what was it such a big secret when Bond knew half the story, it happened a long time ago and she had no idea if Safin was alive or dead?
  • cwl007cwl007 England
    Posts: 606
    My question. Why drag Valdo around only to kill him out of annoyance after a while?
    If he was so superfluous at that stage just pop him earlier in the lab.
  • zebrafishzebrafish <°)))< in Octopussy's garden in the shade
    Posts: 3,853
    Yes, that's a good question: What is Madeleine's secret, as hinted at by Blofeld and prominently featured in the teasers?
    That she and Safin have a connection and that he wants her by his side? Would that be the death of Bond?

    In retrospect, isn't it ironic how we debated long ago if Blofeld said the death of you or the death of him? Bond's death was written on the wall from the beginning, so to say.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited October 2021 Posts: 4,292
    Yes Swann's secret is that she has an unresolved and tragic past with such an insane and dangerous person, who saved her life and for that he now claims to own her.
    Further into the film, turns out she has even a bigger one...
  • HildebrandRarityHildebrandRarity Centre international d'assistance aux personnes déplacées, Paris, France
    Posts: 418
    cwl007 wrote: »
    My question. Why drag Valdo around only to kill him out of annoyance after a while?
    If he was so superfluous at that stage just pop him earlier in the lab.

    Possibly to get an antidote out of him, or something like that.
    Narratively, he's needed to deliver some expository speech (so it's not all Safin and Q) and explain that there's no way to cancel the nanobots. And to provide some comic relief while the tone gets darker. But yeah, I agree, it makes very little sense to protect him so much by this point.
    zebrafish wrote: »
    Yes, that's a good question: What is Madeleine's secret, as hinted at by Blofeld and prominently featured in the teasers?
    That she and Safin have a connection and that he wants her by his side? Would that be the death of Bond?

    Most of what Blofeld says must be taken with a grain of salt, as he wants to get under Bond's skin... and because the scene was most likely written and shot before they had fully decided some key elements of the plot, while some footage was quickly released ad part of the trailer, just like it happened with at least one M scene.

    The secret could be another bluff by Blofeld (who already caused Bond to leave Madeleine, so after the reveal that he was behind Bond's pain for five years, he tries to throw another wrench in their relationship), or it could be the early connection between Madeleine and Safin that will cause Bond to be involved with the plot (except that Bond already wants to avenge Leiter), or it could be the existence of Mathilde, as Bond could be legitimately mad at being out of his daughter's life.

    The most likely guess is that Blofeld alludes to Safin's obsession with Madeleine. But it's vague and confusing.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,205
    cwl007 wrote: »
    My question. Why drag Valdo around only to kill him out of annoyance after a while?
    If he was so superfluous at that stage just pop him earlier in the lab.

    Possibly to get an antidote out of him, or something like that.
    Narratively, he's needed to deliver some expository speech (so it's not all Safin and Q) and explain that there's no way to cancel the nanobots. And to provide some comic relief while the tone gets darker. But yeah, I agree, it makes very little sense to protect him so much by this point.
    zebrafish wrote: »
    Yes, that's a good question: What is Madeleine's secret, as hinted at by Blofeld and prominently featured in the teasers?
    That she and Safin have a connection and that he wants her by his side? Would that be the death of Bond?

    Most of what Blofeld says must be taken with a grain of salt, as he wants to get under Bond's skin... and because the scene was most likely written and shot before they had fully decided some key elements of the plot, while some footage was quickly released ad part of the trailer, just like it happened with at least one M scene.

    The secret could be another bluff by Blofeld (who already caused Bond to leave Madeleine, so after the reveal that he was behind Bond's pain for five years, he tries to throw another wrench in their relationship), or it could be the early connection between Madeleine and Safin that will cause Bond to be involved with the plot (except that Bond already wants to avenge Leiter), or it could be the existence of Mathilde, as Bond could be legitimately mad at being out of his daughter's life.

    The most likely guess is that Blofeld alludes to Safin's obsession with Madeleine. But it's vague and confusing.

    Not that it totally works, but I took Mathilde to be the secret. The idea then is basically that Blofeld saw it coming that at some point Bond would have to choose between his daughter and his life and he would in that case sacrifice himself, as he in fact later does. Basically, you can barely get over the death of all these other women (Vesper, M, his mother, Agent Fields) but you couldn't get over harm befalling your daughter. That is very tenuous, but it's the way I read it.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,292
    Up to the scene where Bond goes to her place the movie establishes that her secret is “the masked man”. She even writes it on the paper she burns in Matera. The movie never implies that Blofeld knows she has a daughter. It looks like only Safin knows that.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,205
    matt_u wrote: »
    Up to the scene where Bond goes to her place the movie establishes that her secret is “the masked man”. She even writes it on the paper she burns in Matera. The movie never implies that Blofeld knows she has a daughter. It looks like only Safin knows that.

    Oh right. Totally forgot about the thing with the paper. Mmh. That doesn't really sit well with me.
    My assumption was that maybe she let it slip in their therapy sessions. You know, the old who is psychoanalyzing whom...

    One thing I have wondered about with the PTS and then Safin's later appearence is: What happened after he got her out of the water? Up until he shows up in her office, I was convinced the two of them had more history together. She wrote him on the piece of paper and from the trailer we had the insinuation that he was in love with her. So I thought they had at least spent some meaningful time together, but apparently she hasn't even seen him without the mask? So he just pulls her out of the water and then immediatly leaves? And that's her secret?
  • BelinusBelinus Scotland
    Posts: 48
    It doesn’t seem like an earth shattering secret to me. Not even sure why she hasn’t spoken to Bond about it before if he already knew the first part.
  • leas_moleleas_mole love is the promise of suffering
    Posts: 574
    I have a different take on this - Madeleine's secret that she was going to tell Bond whilst in the DB5 was that she was pregnant (she touches her stomach briefly when she was put on the train). So complete misdirection in the trailers - ooh Madeleine betrays him like Vesper did etc. I feel that was a red herring.

    Up until then Madeleine has no idea what is going on. The explosion at Lynd's grave and then the call from Blofeld. She was pleading with Bond to save them both in the car. She had not idea that Blofeld had set her up. It was only when Blofeld said to Bond that she took them to Italy from the goodness of her heart (so Bond could find closure with Vesper so that he can move on and be able to have a better relationship with Madeleine).

    Blofeld mentions that Swann has a secret - and that was Safin.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited October 2021 Posts: 38,241
    It might've already been covered but what was the significance of the incoming boats during the finale? Were they there to pick up the nanobot weapons or something? Incoming reinforcements to take out Bond and/or pick up Safin? It seemed Safin was initially escaping before lingering around to take out Bond, I didn't really understand this. I might've just been wrapped up in the intensity and the emotion and missed this, of course, and the sound in my theater was off at times, so there's a nice chunk of dialogue I missed out on.
  • MalloryMallory Do mosquitoes have friends?
    Posts: 1,794
    @Creasy47 He mentioned “the first buyers are on their way” once he lets Mathilde go. SoI assume he was selling Hercules to the highest bidders.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 38,241
    Mallory wrote: »
    @Creasy47 He mentioned “the first buyers are on their way” once he lets Mathilde go. SoI assume he was selling Hercules to the highest bidders.

    Interesting, thanks for that. Probably one of many bits of lines I didn't catch then. So his motivation at the end of the day is simply money then, I'm guessing? I figured with the mystery of his lair and all his talk about eradication and being tidy about it would lead to him wanting to kill millions, like those simulations suggested.
  • MalloryMallory Do mosquitoes have friends?
    edited October 2021 Posts: 1,794
    @Creasy47

    This is where the plotting gets a little messy for me.

    The island was a Spectre island. When Safin arranged to gas them all, he took it over. Hence we see people unpacking stuff and putting artwork up.

    At a push I would say his plan is to live in his island “Utopia” with Madeleine, whom he seems to have an infatuation with (since he saved her life in the pre titles anyway). As he is willing to let Bond and Mathilde go, but not Maddie.

    I am not sure how the poison garden, the manufacturing pool (underneath the garden) and the lab all link together.

    Maybe he is selling it so that nations can use it against eachother and bring about worlds end between them? Idk,
  • zebrafishzebrafish <°)))< in Octopussy's garden in the shade
    edited October 2021 Posts: 3,853
    I did not get why Primo insisted that Madeleine drank the tea. What was supposed to be in it?
    And the nanobots in Safins sphere (necklace), was it explained that they were targeted against Madeleine and Mathilde?

    Update: If Bond is the father, he would share half his genetic material with Mathilde. How can the nanobots not target him but her? I think there is no point over-analyzing, it just does not make sense.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 38,241
    zebrafish wrote: »
    I did not get why Primo insisted that Madeleine drank the tea. What was supposed to be in it?
    And the nanobots in Safins sphere (necklace), was it explained that they were targeted against Madeleine and Mathilde?

    Update: If Bond is the father, he would share half his genetic material with Mathilde. How can the nanobots not target him but her? I think there is no point over-analyzing, it just does not make sense.

    It sounded to me, unless I misheard, that ingesting the flower within the tea would cause blindness; perhaps he wanted her blind so she could never fight back or escape and would forever be stuck there with him?

    @Mallory, I think you're right, some of it is quite muddled. If the nanobot stuff is all complete and it's going to be sold, what is Valdo still working on? What are all the workers doing? Why sell it if they're still actively working to seemingly create these nanobots or whatever? It's kind of confusing.
  • MalloryMallory Do mosquitoes have friends?
    Posts: 1,794
    @Creasy47 My personal theory is that in the original P&W draft, it was a straight up virus, in a liquified form. That would explain the poison garden plants being mixed up in a bath (in the larger area being worked in underneath the garden by the technicians) before it is laced with the dna target before being used.

    The whole nanobot thing was added in later on and never truly reconciled.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 38,241
    I think I would've preferred that, honestly - simple, to the point, without delving into sci-fi territory as heavily. I'm sure it'll all click and be more understood with subsequent viewings for me but it's clear that digging too much into the realism of the nanobots and Safin's goals is a losing battle. I'm just glad more of the finale has been explained to me; I only wish Safin's aims and wants were a bit more fleshed out and realized and obvious is all.
  • leas_moleleas_mole love is the promise of suffering
    Posts: 574
    zebrafish wrote: »
    I did not get why Primo insisted that Madeleine drank the tea. What was supposed to be in it?
    And the nanobots in Safins sphere (necklace), was it explained that they were targeted against Madeleine and Mathilde?

    Update: If Bond is the father, he would share half his genetic material with Mathilde. How can the nanobots not target him but her? I think there is no point over-analyzing, it just does not make sense.

    Safin asked Valdo to make nanobots with Madeleine's DNA - he uses a strand of her hair, which he uses as insurance. Mathilde would have inherited half of Madeleine's DNA. When the necklace was broken and it went on Bond's skin, it did not harm him. But as Q pointed out to him - you cannot get rid of them. The intended target is Madeleine but would have killed Mathilde too as she shares Madeleine's DNA
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,560
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    zebrafish wrote: »
    I did not get why Primo insisted that Madeleine drank the tea. What was supposed to be in it?
    And the nanobots in Safins sphere (necklace), was it explained that they were targeted against Madeleine and Mathilde?

    Update: If Bond is the father, he would share half his genetic material with Mathilde. How can the nanobots not target him but her? I think there is no point over-analyzing, it just does not make sense.

    It sounded to me, unless I misheard, that ingesting the flower within the tea would cause blindness; perhaps he wanted her blind so she could never fight back or escape and would forever be stuck there with him?

    @Mallory, I think you're right, some of it is quite muddled. If the nanobot stuff is all complete and it's going to be sold, what is Valdo still working on? What are all the workers doing? Why sell it if they're still actively working to seemingly create these nanobots or whatever? It's kind of confusing.

    I think she made up the blindness effect to scare Primo enough that it could be a viable weapon. The tea was almost certainly the plant that "makes you behave" that Safin was talking about.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 38,241
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    zebrafish wrote: »
    I did not get why Primo insisted that Madeleine drank the tea. What was supposed to be in it?
    And the nanobots in Safins sphere (necklace), was it explained that they were targeted against Madeleine and Mathilde?

    Update: If Bond is the father, he would share half his genetic material with Mathilde. How can the nanobots not target him but her? I think there is no point over-analyzing, it just does not make sense.

    It sounded to me, unless I misheard, that ingesting the flower within the tea would cause blindness; perhaps he wanted her blind so she could never fight back or escape and would forever be stuck there with him?

    @Mallory, I think you're right, some of it is quite muddled. If the nanobot stuff is all complete and it's going to be sold, what is Valdo still working on? What are all the workers doing? Why sell it if they're still actively working to seemingly create these nanobots or whatever? It's kind of confusing.

    I think she made up the blindness effect to scare Primo enough that it could be a viable weapon. The tea was almost certainly the plant that "makes you behave" that Safin was talking about.

    Ahh OK, interesting, thanks for that. I don't know if it was a film issue or the theater itself but there were countless moments, particularly during the finale, where I simply couldn't make out the dialogue at all. I want a home video release for this ASAP so I can hear it all clearly.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,322
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    zebrafish wrote: »
    I did not get why Primo insisted that Madeleine drank the tea. What was supposed to be in it?
    And the nanobots in Safins sphere (necklace), was it explained that they were targeted against Madeleine and Mathilde?

    Update: If Bond is the father, he would share half his genetic material with Mathilde. How can the nanobots not target him but her? I think there is no point over-analyzing, it just does not make sense.

    It sounded to me, unless I misheard, that ingesting the flower within the tea would cause blindness; perhaps he wanted her blind so she could never fight back or escape and would forever be stuck there with him?

    @Mallory, I think you're right, some of it is quite muddled. If the nanobot stuff is all complete and it's going to be sold, what is Valdo still working on? What are all the workers doing? Why sell it if they're still actively working to seemingly create these nanobots or whatever? It's kind of confusing.

    I think she made up the blindness effect to scare Primo enough that it could be a viable weapon. The tea was almost certainly the plant that "makes you behave" that Safin was talking about.

    This was my thought as well.
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    Posts: 1,165
    I believe @leas_mole and @ImpertinentGoon are on the money; we as an audience as misdirected to believe Madeleine's secret is the masked man when in reality it's her pregnancy.
  • AntiLocqueBrakesAntiLocqueBrakes The edge
    edited October 2021 Posts: 538
    Ok...Ana de armas was a total smoke show in this role! Holy hell she was good. Her character was badass, playful and intrigueing and that made her even sexier. I didn't think she could get more attractive but this role definitely did it. She should have been Bonds sidekick throughout the movie and become friends with him instead, moving away from a potentially cliched romance. Maybe there could have been a throughline in the film with him becoming sort of her mentor along the way since he's pretty much the most seasoned agent and she's insecure with how good she is. You can even still have the "saying no" scene later in the movie as their partnership grows and maybe some awkwardness leading to a back and forth conversation. Maybe he tells her about Vesper. Wnatever. Something like that would have felt organic, served as character development for Bond and some more three-dimensional depth to her character. Makes the "saying no" moment maybe actually mean something in the movie rather than a throwaway comedic jab at Bonds character.

    Makes you ask, “Why wasn’t she used more?”

    Seems like a waste to have such a badass and quirky character available for only 15 minutes.

    Doubly sad...the series is likely headed towards a clean break, and we won’t have the chance to see her again in the franchise. Maybe she can “Maud Adams” back into an entirely different role.
  • FeyadorFeyador Montreal, Canada
    Posts: 359
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I might've just been wrapped up in the intensity and the emotion and missed this, of course, and the sound in my theater was off at times, so there's a nice chunk of dialogue I missed out on.
    Yeah, I missed a lot of the dialogue, too - but not just in the ending, but throughout the movie- even after a second viewing. I'm going to need the Bluray to figure it all out ... but going back tonight for another shot.

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 38,241
    Feyador wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I might've just been wrapped up in the intensity and the emotion and missed this, of course, and the sound in my theater was off at times, so there's a nice chunk of dialogue I missed out on.
    Yeah, I missed a lot of the dialogue, too - but not just in the ending, but throughout the movie- even after a second viewing. I'm going to need the Bluray to figure it all out ... but going back tonight for another shot.

    Same here. There was a lot during the SPECTRE party sequence that I simply couldn't make out or hear, whether it was due to the music or effects or what have you. I'm eager to hear it all in full.
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