NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - Discuss Hans Zimmer's Score

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  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,562
    I'm digging the look of these vinyls but not about to shell out money for a soundtrack pre-order I've barely heard anything from. I do hope the score rocks, though, I'm loving that snippet from today.
  • Posts: 1,723
    TripAces wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Sounds exactly like the Arnold arrangement but still very nice to listen to.

    Interesting. I didn't have that reaction. I could tell a difference; Zimmer's track is richer, a little more emphasis on strings. And Marr's guitar has an almost dreamlike, hypnotic quality to it.

    Agreed, very much different than Arnold's arrangement.
  • Posts: 820
    I'm in heaven. Simple, classic, powerful James Bond theme. Exactly what I was hoping for and I can't wait to see what else Hans and his team have in store for us!
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    I really love what Zimmer & Marr did with the Bond theme...slick guitar sounds that sounds so mission-based...like Bond is super-focused this time.
  • Posts: 366
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  • SatoriousSatorious Brushing up on a little Danish
    Posts: 232
    Better than Newman but "by the numbers" and predictable. I'll reserve judgement until I see the film. Was kinda hoping Zimmer would shake it up a bit - and maybe he will - Braam Braams Daaa...
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,028
    Wasn’t it confirmed that Zimmer uses the “The Name’s Bond” arrangement by David Arnold?
  • Wasn’t it confirmed that Zimmer uses the “The Name’s Bond” arrangement by David Arnold?

    I sure hope he does. Though not used in QOS, it was used in both SF and SP and it's nice to see instances of continuity like that.
  • Posts: 1,723
    Satorious wrote: »
    Better than Newman but "by the numbers" and predictable. I'll reserve judgement until I see the film. Was kinda hoping Zimmer would shake it up a bit - and maybe he will - Braam Braams Daaa...

    Any Barryesque or Arnold sound will be welcomed after the turged Newman piffle. The only great pieces from the Newman era were done by his assistants.
  • Posts: 820
    delfloria wrote: »
    Satorious wrote: »
    Better than Newman but "by the numbers" and predictable. I'll reserve judgement until I see the film. Was kinda hoping Zimmer would shake it up a bit - and maybe he will - Braam Braams Daaa...

    Any Barryesque or Arnold sound will be welcomed after the turged Newman piffle. The only great pieces from the Newman era were done by his assistants.

    Such as?
  • Posts: 1,723
    AgentM72 wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    Satorious wrote: »
    Better than Newman but "by the numbers" and predictable. I'll reserve judgement until I see the film. Was kinda hoping Zimmer would shake it up a bit - and maybe he will - Braam Braams Daaa...

    Any Barryesque or Arnold sound will be welcomed after the turged Newman piffle. The only great pieces from the Newman era were done by his assistants.

    Such as?

    Bond's arrival at the casino in Skyfall riding the boat with the main theme playing in the BG.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,028
    Newman was better than Arnold.

    Wait, this isn’t the controversial opinion thread. Oops.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,117
    Newman was better than Arnold.

    Wait, this isn’t the controversial opinion thread. Oops.

    It’s not controversial in my house! :)

    I’d be amazed if that isn’t the Arnold arrangement, or variant of. It even repeats the Newman thing from Skyfall of having the guitar play the vamp (which I do like).
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,014
    Newman was better than Arnold.

    Wait, this isn’t the controversial opinion thread. Oops.

    Well most wrong statements are controversial.

    ;)
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,049
    talos7 wrote: »
    Newman was better than Arnold.

    Wait, this isn’t the controversial opinion thread. Oops.

    Well most wrong statements are controversial.

    ;)

    Correct! ;;)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,117
    Hence why it’s fine to post here; it’s neither controversial nor wrong ;)
  • NickThunderballsNickThunderballs Australia
    Posts: 133
    Do any of us know if the full soundtrack will be released on Spotify for streaming simultaneously with the vinyls dropping?
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,049
    Do any of us know if the full soundtrack will be released on Spotify for streaming simultaneously with the vinyls dropping?

    I know sometimes the soundtracks appear on streaming in advance, but in this case I think it's a same day release across the board.
  • Posts: 820
    delfloria wrote: »
    AgentM72 wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    Satorious wrote: »
    Better than Newman but "by the numbers" and predictable. I'll reserve judgement until I see the film. Was kinda hoping Zimmer would shake it up a bit - and maybe he will - Braam Braams Daaa...

    Any Barryesque or Arnold sound will be welcomed after the turged Newman piffle. The only great pieces from the Newman era were done by his assistants.

    Such as?

    Bond's arrival at the casino in Skyfall riding the boat with the main theme playing in the BG.

    Interesting. How do we know that?
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,049
    AgentM72 wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    AgentM72 wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    Satorious wrote: »
    Better than Newman but "by the numbers" and predictable. I'll reserve judgement until I see the film. Was kinda hoping Zimmer would shake it up a bit - and maybe he will - Braam Braams Daaa...

    Any Barryesque or Arnold sound will be welcomed after the turged Newman piffle. The only great pieces from the Newman era were done by his assistants.

    Such as?

    Bond's arrival at the casino in Skyfall riding the boat with the main theme playing in the BG.

    Interesting. How do we know that?

    That cue was done by Newman but at Wilson's insistence so that the title song felt less random at the top end of the film (if I'm remembering correctly). I don't know whether Newman would have incorporated it anyway.
  • DeerAtTheGatesDeerAtTheGates Belgium
    Posts: 524
    AgentM72 wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    AgentM72 wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    Satorious wrote: »
    Better than Newman but "by the numbers" and predictable. I'll reserve judgement until I see the film. Was kinda hoping Zimmer would shake it up a bit - and maybe he will - Braam Braams Daaa...

    Any Barryesque or Arnold sound will be welcomed after the turged Newman piffle. The only great pieces from the Newman era were done by his assistants.

    Such as?

    Bond's arrival at the casino in Skyfall riding the boat with the main theme playing in the BG.

    Interesting. How do we know that?

    That cue was done by Newman but at Wilson's insistence so that the title song felt less random at the top end of the film (if I'm remembering correctly). I don't know whether Newman would have incorporated it anyway.

    Indeed! From this interview, Newman is asked about the Adele song:
    The Adele theme song is only reflected in the cue “Komodo Dragon.” Did you want to incorporate it anywhere else in the score?

    Michael Wilson had asked where I was going to use the Adele song so that it didn’t appear as a kind of “one off” at the top of the movie. And the scene where he enters the Macau casino with his new, shaved appearance and tuxedo was a real moment of “Bond” swagger. The Adele tune has that quality to it too, so that seemed like a good place to reprieve the song.

    Did you have any interaction with Adele or the writers of the song?

    While I did not get to meet with Adele, I did with Paul Epworth, who was the co-writer and producer of the song, He really wanted to evoke the early Shirley Bassey arrangements with “Skyfall,” and talked to me about arranging the strings and brass to that effect. But my task was already so huge and daunting that my orchestrator J.A.C. Redford, who’s a great composer in his own right, ended up doing the arrangements.

    From these comments, it seems like he let J.A.C. Redford handle all of Adele's Skyfall. I don't have the liner notes of the soundtrack near me, but I think it confirms what he says here. I do have the Spectre liner notes, which note 'Orchestration of "Writing's on the Wall" by Simon Hale', so I always assumed Newman didn't do the Skyfall interpolation either.

    To bring it back to Zimmer and NTTD, I wouldn't be surprised if Zimmer (having a bunch of projects to do) did the same as Newman: he met Billie and Finneas, worked out the theme with them, but left the orchestrations to Steve Mazzaro, who, in Zimmer's own words, worked more on the soundtrack than himself.
    Well, it was surprising, and let me explain why. I’ve known [producer] Barbara Broccoli for a long time, and we’re friends. I never thought we would work together on something like that, so it was surprising just to get the call. And I asked her if it was okay that Steve Mazzaro, who is one of the most fabulous composers I know, could do it with me, because there was very little time. And of course she said yes. Steve should really be the top name on the Bond film. I hope we’ve done it justice.
  • Posts: 820
    Interesting insights!

    I love Newman's two Bond scores more than many seem to, and I'm glad we got them (especially Skyfall). But sometimes I do wonder how much his heart was really in all of it, and how comfortable he really was throughout the process.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,028
    AgentM72 wrote: »
    Interesting insights!

    I love Newman's two Bond scores more than many seem to, and I'm glad we got them (especially Skyfall). But sometimes I do wonder how much his heart was really in all of it, and how comfortable he really was throughout the process.

    Newman asked Mendes for the gig, so I think that says it.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2021 Posts: 15,117
    AgentM72 wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    AgentM72 wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    Satorious wrote: »
    Better than Newman but "by the numbers" and predictable. I'll reserve judgement until I see the film. Was kinda hoping Zimmer would shake it up a bit - and maybe he will - Braam Braams Daaa...

    Any Barryesque or Arnold sound will be welcomed after the turged Newman piffle. The only great pieces from the Newman era were done by his assistants.

    Such as?

    Bond's arrival at the casino in Skyfall riding the boat with the main theme playing in the BG.

    Interesting. How do we know that?

    That cue was done by Newman but at Wilson's insistence so that the title song felt less random at the top end of the film (if I'm remembering correctly). I don't know whether Newman would have incorporated it anyway.

    Indeed! From this interview, Newman is asked about the Adele song:
    The Adele theme song is only reflected in the cue “Komodo Dragon.” Did you want to incorporate it anywhere else in the score?

    Michael Wilson had asked where I was going to use the Adele song so that it didn’t appear as a kind of “one off” at the top of the movie. And the scene where he enters the Macau casino with his new, shaved appearance and tuxedo was a real moment of “Bond” swagger. The Adele tune has that quality to it too, so that seemed like a good place to reprieve the song.

    Did you have any interaction with Adele or the writers of the song?

    While I did not get to meet with Adele, I did with Paul Epworth, who was the co-writer and producer of the song, He really wanted to evoke the early Shirley Bassey arrangements with “Skyfall,” and talked to me about arranging the strings and brass to that effect. But my task was already so huge and daunting that my orchestrator J.A.C. Redford, who’s a great composer in his own right, ended up doing the arrangements.

    From these comments, it seems like he let J.A.C. Redford handle all of Adele's Skyfall. I don't have the liner notes of the soundtrack near me, but I think it confirms what he says here. I do have the Spectre liner notes, which note 'Orchestration of "Writing's on the Wall" by Simon Hale', so I always assumed Newman didn't do the Skyfall interpolation either.

    To bring it back to Zimmer and NTTD, I wouldn't be surprised if Zimmer (having a bunch of projects to do) did the same as Newman: he met Billie and Finneas, worked out the theme with them, but left the orchestrations to Steve Mazzaro, who, in Zimmer's own words, worked more on the soundtrack than himself.
    Well, it was surprising, and let me explain why. I’ve known [producer] Barbara Broccoli for a long time, and we’re friends. I never thought we would work together on something like that, so it was surprising just to get the call. And I asked her if it was okay that Steve Mazzaro, who is one of the most fabulous composers I know, could do it with me, because there was very little time. And of course she said yes. Steve should really be the top name on the Bond film. I hope we’ve done it justice.

    I guess it makes sense though: if you have a whole movie soundtrack to write and time is tight (which I'm sure it always is) if you have two themes handed to you which are already written (i.e. the Bond theme and Skyfall/Spectre) you're going to give those to your assistant to do, because they require no writing: there's no point in the main composer doing those bits.
    AgentM72 wrote: »
    Interesting insights!

    I love Newman's two Bond scores more than many seem to, and I'm glad we got them (especially Skyfall). But sometimes I do wonder how much his heart was really in all of it, and how comfortable he really was throughout the process.

    I don't see any reason to think that, he's a professional film composer.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,049
    From these comments, it seems like he let J.A.C. Redford handle all of Adele's Skyfall. I don't have the liner notes of the soundtrack near me, but I think it confirms what he says here. I do have the Spectre liner notes, which note 'Orchestration of "Writing's on the Wall" by Simon Hale', so I always assumed Newman didn't do the Skyfall interpolation either.

    I didn't actually read it that way initially - I always thought those comments were exclusively about the song and not the cue on the score. I didn't realise Newman didn't handle the orchestration of WOTW in SP. I always thought that was his thing.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,028
    In the cases of LTK, GE, TND, DAD, QOS, SF and SP, the truth is that EON should have been more insistent with the composers on integrating the song in their scores, in the same manner as it was done with past films with. Of course, in all those specific films I mentioned, the composers had no hand in the songs.

    This is no doubt due to EON allowing the artists to have their creative freedom, as opposed to following the composer’s lead. IIRC, in the Bond and Friends podcast someone mentioned that one of the stipulations Barry made over whether he would score TND was that he was guaranteed control over the song, and EON wasn’t willing to guarantee him that, which is likely why he ultimately turned it down.

    So it’s always nice to hear that there was a collaboration between the composer and artists, as that at least assures a better weaving of the song in the soundtrack. I hope Zimmer has made good use of it in the way it used to be done back in the Cubby years.
  • edited August 2021 Posts: 6,844
    Disagree with the examples of TND, DAD, and QOS. Arnold scored TND using "Surrender" as a prominent theme in the film with the understanding and intention that "Surrender" would be the title song. I seriously doubt Arnold would have had any time to incorporate Crow's song into his score. The schedule of that film was rushed enough as it was, and the same would have happened had Barry been composing.

    Similar case with DAD. Arnold did intend the main theme of his score to feature in the title song as well: "I Will Return." I don't have the source or the exact wording on me right now, but I recall him being asked at one point about why he didn't put Madonna's electro-pop into his score, and he gave a good-natured but sarcastic reply along the lines of, "Seriously?" They did replace Arnold's party music (which really was the better choice of the two) with a remix of Madonna's "Die Another Day."

    And Arnold amazingly did weave "Another Way to Die" into the score for QOS. As with his interpolations of the Bond theme, it's subtle but it's there. Could it have been more obvious or more in-your-face? Sure, but that wasn't really the nature of that particular score.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited August 2021 Posts: 13,135
    And Arnold amazingly did weave "Another Way to Die" into the score for QOS. As with his interpolations of the Bond theme, it's subtle but it's there. Could it have been more obvious or more in-your-face? Sure, but that wasn't really the nature of that particular score.
    I hear it there, @Some_Kind_Of_Hero.

    At the same time I believe it's actually the melody from his own very similar "No Good About Goodbye".



  • Posts: 820
    mtm wrote: »
    I don't see any reason to think that, he's a professional film composer.

    Oh, certainly. Among the best and I wouldn't try and suggest otherwise. And as I said, I love both those scores! I've defended them quite often, it feels like. Especially Skyfall. It's a top Bond score to me, which isn't a popular opinion, I know.

    There are just certain things that make me wonder. Like, if you were composing a Bond film, wouldn't you be looking forward to integrating the title song into the score? (vs. having to be reminded?)

    And I still think lifting certain Skyfall cues verbatim for use in SPECTRE is one of the most questionable musical decisions in franchise history, even though I like them. (I recognize this was rumored to be a Mendes order after hearing the temp score, not a Newman choice). A momentary reprise here or there could have been terrific, but going with entire action cues at times just screamed of either laziness or unoriginality, even if it was totally unintended.

    (Funny/ironic how that doesn't bother me on other franchise films, though -- Zimmer did it all the time for Batman, Powell all the time for Bourne. But each time they reprised a cue in a subsequent film they also found subtle ways to evolve them. The Skyfall to SPECTRE jump didn't try to do that -- maybe that's it).
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited August 2021 Posts: 8,028
    Disagree with the examples of TND, DAD, and QOS. Arnold scored TND using "Surrender" as a prominent theme in the film with the understanding and intention that "Surrender" would be the title song. I seriously doubt Arnold would have had any time to incorporate Crow's song into his score. The schedule of that film was rushed enough as it was, and the same would have happened had Barry been composing.

    Barry was able to incorporate his “Thunderball” theme even after “Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang” got rejected late into the process. Of course, Barry was an actual maestro, so it only highlights what a downgrade Arnold was as a Bond composer. Listening to that subpar “Surrender” track it’s pretty apparent.
    Similar case with DAD. Arnold did intend the main theme of his score to feature in the title song as well: "I Will Return." I don't have the source or the exact wording on me right now, but I recall him being asked at one point about why he didn't put Madonna's electro-pop into his score, and he gave a good-natured but sarcastic reply along the lines of, "Seriously?" They did replace Arnold's party music (which really was the better choice of the two) with a remix of Madonna's "Die Another Day."

    That sounds like a lazy excuse. There’s plenty of melodies to be found in the Madonna song to weave in his score. If his answer was “lol, seriously?” then he’s not as much of a dedicated Bond fan as people claim.
    And Arnold amazingly did weave "Another Way to Die" into the score for QOS. As with his interpolations of the Bond theme, it's subtle but it's there. Could it have been more obvious or more in-your-face? Sure, but that wasn't really the nature of that particular score.

    That’s not good enough. And I’ve yet to see any concrete verification that he gave any nods in QOS. That’s just fandom giving him more credit than he ever really deserved. Oh, he used a guitar riff on some boat chase that didn’t even sound like Jack White but we’ll pretend it sound similar? That’s really flimsy.

    I do think it’s interesting that EON made sure Newman’s score would feature a token appearance of the title sequences, but never made the same request for Arnold to do the same in TND, DAD, and QOS. Or the same with Kamen and Serra.

    AgentM72 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I don't see any reason to think that, he's a professional film composer.
    And I still think lifting certain Skyfall cues verbatim for use in SPECTRE is one of the most questionable musical decisions in franchise history, even though I like them. (I recognize this was rumored to be a Mendes order after hearing the temp score, not a Newman choice). A momentary reprise here or there could have been terrific, but going with entire action cues at times just screamed of either laziness or unoriginality, even if it was totally unintended.

    Not a rumor. This was verified by a Lee Smith interview where he and Mendes got very attached to the temp scores and wanted to retain them in the final cut, only being slightly remixed to sound different enough from how it was mixed in SF.
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