Spectre: Reappraised, Reassessed

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Comments

  • edited December 2020 Posts: 7
    Yes, there is an excellent film trapped in there somewhere amongst the bloat! The changes I would make to elevate the film are:

    - Dump the C plot
    - Flesh out, build up Bond and Madeline’s relationship (the train scene dinner could have been the perfect time to beef up romantic dialogue a la CR)
    - Add cars, traffic, barriers to the Rome chase
    - Dump foster brother plot
    - Do an actual torture scene (even a line would have saved it - “this drill has a 90% chance of erasing your ______ “
    - Skip going back to London... End the film with a proper Blofeld lair escape, fight, villain capture (yes in Morocco)

    That’s pretty much what I would do to improve SP. I’d also add:
    - Shorten the PTS (i.e. tighten up the helicopter brawl pacing)
    - Spend more time at / around the clinic in the Alps, what a cool location.

    Overall, I like SP, flaws and all. It does have major problems, but it hits enough of the right notes for me for it to hover around the edge of my top 10.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,350
    Belmont wrote: »
    Yes, there is an excellent film trapped in there somewhere amongst the bloat! The changes I would make to elevate the film are:

    - Dump the C plot
    - Flesh out, build up Bond and Madeline’s relationship (the train scene dinner could have been the perfect time to beef up romantic dialogue a la CR)
    - Add cars, traffic, barriers to the Rome chase
    - Dump foster brother plot
    - Do an actual torture scene (even a line would have saved it - “this drill has a 90% chance of erasing your ______ “
    - Skip going back to London... End the film with a proper Blofeld lair escape, fight, villain capture (yes in Morocco)

    That’s pretty much what I would do to improve SP. I’d also add:
    - Shorten the PTS (i.e. tighten up the helicopter brawl pacing)
    - Spend more time at / around the clinic in the Alps, what a cool location.

    Overall, I like SP, flaws and all. It does have major problems, but it hits enough of the right notes for me for it to hover around the edge of my top 10.

    Just generally tighten up the action set pieces and reign them in.
    - I agree, that the helicopter sequence in the PTS is too long.
    - The "plane" chase from the clinic is ridiculous. Maybe people think it would have been to old fashioned, but put Bond on skis...
    - The explosion in Morocco is too big and at the same time lacks stakes. Nobody cares, if it is the biggest ever if everybody just nonchalantly walks away from it...
  • Bentley007Bentley007 Manitoba, Canada
    Posts: 559
    I am a big supporter of Spectre and place it firmly in my top 12 Bond films. I do understand the complaints but feel the Mendes and the writers may have gotten lost in the many rewrites. Having looked through the multiple drafts I can see where lines of dialogue were cut that were integral to the plot. I feel that had a few lines been kept across script drafts the film would be more cohesive. The most important part is connecting the attack in Mexico and the Nine Eyes vote to Spectre. Had there been a few added lines to address that it was Spectres plan to create a world scared of terrorist plots than the film Spectre and the organization would seem that much more meaningful.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    edited December 2020 Posts: 1,350
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    I am a big supporter of Spectre and place it firmly in my top 12 Bond films. I do understand the complaints but feel the Mendes and the writers may have gotten lost in the many rewrites. Having looked through the multiple drafts I can see where lines of dialogue were cut that were integral to the plot. I feel that had a few lines been kept across script drafts the film would be more cohesive. The most important part is connecting the attack in Mexico and the Nine Eyes vote to Spectre. Had there been a few added lines to address that it was Spectres plan to create a world scared of terrorist plots than the film Spectre and the organization would seem that much more meaningful.

    Agree.
    But do we then not still have the problem that they try to shoehorn the three previous plots into it as well?
    The Mr. White connection is ok, in my opinion.
    Greene makes less sense to the overarching plot to "create a world scared of terrorist plots", because on the Bond villain spectrum between criminal and terrorist, he is much more in the criminal side. But there is the connection to White and that could be down as a side mission. Both for Spectre and Bond.
    But Silva is the one that always sat the worst with me. He is just such a strange maverick in the movie and his quest (however idiotic it may be) is so intensely personal, I feel it massively devalues him to say: Oh yeah, that was Spectre and Blofeld as well.
    I can't recall my complete reasoning, but on my last rewatch of the Craigs, I felt Skyfall is almost the odd one out and CR, QoS, SP almost makes a more compelling trilogy without it. Obviously, changing M and basically her death bed wish being the propulsive force for the beginning of the plot doesn't work anymore, but other than that, Skyfall is kind of this singular story while the other three are much more heavily connected.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited December 2020 Posts: 7,517
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    I am a big supporter of Spectre and place it firmly in my top 12 Bond films. I do understand the complaints but feel the Mendes and the writers may have gotten lost in the many rewrites. Having looked through the multiple drafts I can see where lines of dialogue were cut that were integral to the plot. I feel that had a few lines been kept across script drafts the film would be more cohesive. The most important part is connecting the attack in Mexico and the Nine Eyes vote to Spectre. Had there been a few added lines to address that it was Spectres plan to create a world scared of terrorist plots than the film Spectre and the organization would seem that much more meaningful.

    Interesting, I'm a big supporter of Spectre as well; for me the link between terrorist plots and the Nine Eyes vote was clear without the explicit Mexico connection; this work was done with the South Africa attacks. What could have been clearer IMO was that the Spectre rings were made from the meteorite in Morocco, which contained the rare element found in the toxicology of the deceased agents from previous films. For the me the scene with Q in the hotel near Hoffler is where the movie falls apart the most. "I owe you an apology. You were right. Oberhauser is alive and the ring proves it." Not good. I agree with @ImpertinentGoon as well; the ultimate issues with Spectre all come down to the shoehorning and retconning.
  • Bentley007Bentley007 Manitoba, Canada
    Posts: 559
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    I am a big supporter of Spectre and place it firmly in my top 12 Bond films. I do understand the complaints but feel the Mendes and the writers may have gotten lost in the many rewrites. Having looked through the multiple drafts I can see where lines of dialogue were cut that were integral to the plot. I feel that had a few lines been kept across script drafts the film would be more cohesive. The most important part is connecting the attack in Mexico and the Nine Eyes vote to Spectre. Had there been a few added lines to address that it was Spectres plan to create a world scared of terrorist plots than the film Spectre and the organization would seem that much more meaningful.

    Interesting, I'm a big supporter of Spectre as well; for me the link between terrorist plots and the Nine Eyes vote was clear without the explicit Mexico connection; this work was done with the South Africa attacks. What could have been clearer IMO was that the Spectre rings were made from the meteorite in Morocco, which contained the rare element found in the toxicology of the deceased agents from previous films. For the me the scene with Q in the hotel near Hoffler is where the movie falls apart the most. "I owe you an apology. You were right. Oberhauser is alive and the ring proves it." Not good. I agree with @ImpertinentGoon as well; the ultimate issues with Spectre all come down to the shoehorning and retconning.

    I missed the connection between the ring and the meteorite. I also found the connection between the terrorist attacks and none eyes to be enough but have noticed a lot of people miss that connection in their reviews. I think making it a bit more apparent would have helped as well as explaining the ring connection. Glad to see more Spectre fans come forward. It is not a bottom 4 film as many loud voices argue
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,517
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    I am a big supporter of Spectre and place it firmly in my top 12 Bond films. I do understand the complaints but feel the Mendes and the writers may have gotten lost in the many rewrites. Having looked through the multiple drafts I can see where lines of dialogue were cut that were integral to the plot. I feel that had a few lines been kept across script drafts the film would be more cohesive. The most important part is connecting the attack in Mexico and the Nine Eyes vote to Spectre. Had there been a few added lines to address that it was Spectres plan to create a world scared of terrorist plots than the film Spectre and the organization would seem that much more meaningful.

    Interesting, I'm a big supporter of Spectre as well; for me the link between terrorist plots and the Nine Eyes vote was clear without the explicit Mexico connection; this work was done with the South Africa attacks. What could have been clearer IMO was that the Spectre rings were made from the meteorite in Morocco, which contained the rare element found in the toxicology of the deceased agents from previous films. For the me the scene with Q in the hotel near Hoffler is where the movie falls apart the most. "I owe you an apology. You were right. Oberhauser is alive and the ring proves it." Not good. I agree with @ImpertinentGoon as well; the ultimate issues with Spectre all come down to the shoehorning and retconning.

    I missed the connection between the ring and the meteorite. I also found the connection between the terrorist attacks and none eyes to be enough but have noticed a lot of people miss that connection in their reviews. I think making it a bit more apparent would have helped as well as explaining the ring connection. Glad to see more Spectre fans come forward. It is not a bottom 4 film as many loud voices argue

    They made the ring - meteorite connection more clearly in the leaked script (which was sent to me, unsolicited, by a now-banned member, and which I only read very recently).
  • Bentley007Bentley007 Manitoba, Canada
    Posts: 559
    I read one of the leaked scripts too just didnt catch the nod in the final film. Makes me like the movie even more! I will add that to my list of defenses for Spectre.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,517
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    I read one of the leaked scripts too just didnt catch the nod in the final film. Makes me like the movie even more! I will add that to my list of defenses for Spectre.

    I checked again and actually can’t find references to this connection :)) must have read about it somewhere else. I think in the final film you may be able to see something alluding to this connection on one of Qs screens if you look closely but I could be mistaken there as well.
  • Bentley007Bentley007 Manitoba, Canada
    Posts: 559
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    I read one of the leaked scripts too just didnt catch the nod in the final film. Makes me like the movie even more! I will add that to my list of defenses for Spectre.

    I checked again and actually can’t find references to this connection :)) must have read about it somewhere else. I think in the final film you may be able to see something alluding to this connection on one of Qs screens if you look closely but I could be mistaken there as well.

    Well I have a new Covid task; Rewatch and look for this
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    edited December 2020 Posts: 1,350
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    I read one of the leaked scripts too just didnt catch the nod in the final film. Makes me like the movie even more! I will add that to my list of defenses for Spectre.

    I checked again and actually can’t find references to this connection :)) must have read about it somewhere else. I think in the final film you may be able to see something alluding to this connection on one of Qs screens if you look closely but I could be mistaken there as well.

    Yup, someone posted this on Reddit a while back I believe.

    I think it is on Q's laptop while he is in the gondola. The ring is made out of or has traces Reidite - a mineral only found at meteorite crash sites - and all the baddies from the previous film all had Reidite in ther posthumous toxicology reports. Meaning they either wore a ring or where at Blofeld's lair.
    u5bkdh3w11751.jpg
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited December 2020 Posts: 7,517
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    I read one of the leaked scripts too just didnt catch the nod in the final film. Makes me like the movie even more! I will add that to my list of defenses for Spectre.

    I checked again and actually can’t find references to this connection :)) must have read about it somewhere else. I think in the final film you may be able to see something alluding to this connection on one of Qs screens if you look closely but I could be mistaken there as well.

    Yup, someone posted this on Reddit a while back I believe.

    I think it is on Q's laptop while he is in the gondola. The ring is made out of or has traces Reidite - a mineral only found at meteorite crash sites - and all the baddies from the previous film all had Reidite in ther posthumous toxicology reports. Meaning they either wore a ring or where at Blofeld's lair.
    u5bkdh3w11751.jpg

    Yes thanks! I think this is something they could have elaborated on to make the connection a little more clear.

    Would have been better if these baddies had nothing to do with Spectre, though, and the connection was just with Mr. White. He could have pulled out his own ring during the meeting in Austria.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    suavejmf wrote: »
    C was terrible along with the Blofeld Foster Brother angle.

    Apart from that, it’s ok, but still Craig’s worse by far.

    Amended above.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,648
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    I read one of the leaked scripts too just didnt catch the nod in the final film. Makes me like the movie even more! I will add that to my list of defenses for Spectre.

    I checked again and actually can’t find references to this connection :)) must have read about it somewhere else. I think in the final film you may be able to see something alluding to this connection on one of Qs screens if you look closely but I could be mistaken there as well.

    Yup, someone posted this on Reddit a while back I believe.

    I think it is on Q's laptop while he is in the gondola. The ring is made out of or has traces Reidite - a mineral only found at meteorite crash sites - and all the baddies from the previous film all had Reidite in ther posthumous toxicology reports. Meaning they either wore a ring or where at Blofeld's lair.
    u5bkdh3w11751.jpg

    Excellent! Thanks!
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,517
    suavejmf wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    C was terrible along with the Blofeld Foster Brother angle.

    Apart from that, it’s ok, but still Craig’s worse by far.

    Amended above.

    Basically agree with you here. I’m not sure I’d say it’s Craig’s worst “by far”, though maybe it is... I still enjoy watching it quite a bit.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,953
    QOS is easily his worst. SP has its issues, but it at least has some competent filmmaking involved.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited December 2020 Posts: 7,517
    lol, a bit dramatic. Maybe you don't like the editing, or you didn't know there was a writers strike going on at the time, but there was definitely a bit of competent filmmaking involved in QoS.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 7,961
    I am never bored during QoS, but some stretches of SP are very dull. They're both very flawed but I would rather watch QoS than SP most of the time.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,168
    QOS is easily his worst. SP has its issues, but it at least has some competent filmmaking involved.

    I wish that were the case.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,857
    lol, a bit dramatic. Maybe you don't like the editing, or you didn't know there was a writers strike going on at the time, but there was definitely a bit of competent filmmaking involved in QoS.

    Like the endless table scene?
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,517
    I am never bored during QoS, but some stretches of SP are very dull. They're both very flawed but I would rather watch QoS than SP most of the time.

    I agree with you 100% here, but for some reason I'm compelled to watch Spectre more often than QoS. I'm just too in love with the Rome, Altausse, L'Americain, Train, and Morocco sections of the film. I can take or leave the Hoffler bits, and the scene in Q's hotel room is dismal.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    I read one of the leaked scripts too just didnt catch the nod in the final film. Makes me like the movie even more! I will add that to my list of defenses for Spectre.

    I checked again and actually can’t find references to this connection :)) must have read about it somewhere else. I think in the final film you may be able to see something alluding to this connection on one of Qs screens if you look closely but I could be mistaken there as well.

    Yup, someone posted this on Reddit a while back I believe.

    I think it is on Q's laptop while he is in the gondola. The ring is made out of or has traces Reidite - a mineral only found at meteorite crash sites - and all the baddies from the previous film all had Reidite in ther posthumous toxicology reports. Meaning they either wore a ring or where at Blofeld's lair.
    u5bkdh3w11751.jpg

    Excellent! Thanks!

    Interesting. Shame it wasn’t very clear in the actual film edit.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 7,961
    I am never bored during QoS, but some stretches of SP are very dull. They're both very flawed but I would rather watch QoS than SP most of the time.

    I agree with you 100% here, but for some reason I'm compelled to watch Spectre more often than QoS. I'm just too in love with the Rome, Altausse, L'Americain, Train, and Morocco sections of the film. I can take or leave the Hoffler bits, and the scene in Q's hotel room is dismal.

    Similarly, I love the South American flavour of QoS. You can almost feel the heat through the screen! Locations absolutely do make a difference, so I completely understand why you feel the way you do!

    With SP, I do enjoy the first third up to the end of the Rome meeting, the train fight, and the initial scenes in Blofeld's crater. Everything else lacks energy and focus and I find myself drifting or wishing I was watching SF instead.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,953
    The thing with QOS is things are so goddamned rushed I can’t satiate with anything like other Bond films actually take the time to do. Boring or not, I can at least take in much more from SP and just ride it out with the elegant cinematography uninterrupted by rapid fire edits.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited December 2020 Posts: 7,517
    I am never bored during QoS, but some stretches of SP are very dull. They're both very flawed but I would rather watch QoS than SP most of the time.

    I agree with you 100% here, but for some reason I'm compelled to watch Spectre more often than QoS. I'm just too in love with the Rome, Altausse, L'Americain, Train, and Morocco sections of the film. I can take or leave the Hoffler bits, and the scene in Q's hotel room is dismal.

    Similarly, I love the South American flavour of QoS. You can almost feel the heat through the screen! Locations absolutely do make a difference, so I completely understand why you feel the way you do!

    With SP, I do enjoy the first third up to the end of the Rome meeting, the train fight, and the initial scenes in Blofeld's crater. Everything else lacks energy and focus and I find myself drifting or wishing I was watching SF instead.

    Good point about Rome, I should have mentioned my dislike of the car chase. The only two moments I like in there are when they're drifting around the Vatican, and the very end when Bond ejects and then lands on the bridge.
  • MalloryMallory Do mosquitoes have friends?
    Posts: 2,024
    I am never bored during QoS, but some stretches of SP are very dull. They're both very flawed but I would rather watch QoS than SP most of the time.

    I agree with you 100% here, but for some reason I'm compelled to watch Spectre more often than QoS. I'm just too in love with the Rome, Altausse, L'Americain, Train, and Morocco sections of the film. I can take or leave the Hoffler bits, and the scene in Q's hotel room is dismal.

    Similarly, I love the South American flavour of QoS. You can almost feel the heat through the screen! Locations absolutely do make a difference, so I completely understand why you feel the way you do!

    With SP, I do enjoy the first third up to the end of the Rome meeting, the train fight, and the initial scenes in Blofeld's crater. Everything else lacks energy and focus and I find myself drifting or wishing I was watching SF instead.

    Good point about Rome, I should have mentioned my dislike of the car chase. The only two moments I like in there are when they're drifting around the Vatican, and the very end when Bond ejects and then lands on the bridge.

    They spent £25m on just cars alone for that sequence....

    I’ll let that sink in.

    What a waste of money for such a placid boring ass car chase.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,517
    Mallory wrote: »
    I am never bored during QoS, but some stretches of SP are very dull. They're both very flawed but I would rather watch QoS than SP most of the time.

    I agree with you 100% here, but for some reason I'm compelled to watch Spectre more often than QoS. I'm just too in love with the Rome, Altausse, L'Americain, Train, and Morocco sections of the film. I can take or leave the Hoffler bits, and the scene in Q's hotel room is dismal.

    Similarly, I love the South American flavour of QoS. You can almost feel the heat through the screen! Locations absolutely do make a difference, so I completely understand why you feel the way you do!

    With SP, I do enjoy the first third up to the end of the Rome meeting, the train fight, and the initial scenes in Blofeld's crater. Everything else lacks energy and focus and I find myself drifting or wishing I was watching SF instead.

    Good point about Rome, I should have mentioned my dislike of the car chase. The only two moments I like in there are when they're drifting around the Vatican, and the very end when Bond ejects and then lands on the bridge.

    They spent £25m on just cars alone for that sequence....

    I’ll let that sink in.

    What a waste of money for such a placid boring ass car chase.

    True. But the cars themselves were brilliant.
  • MalloryMallory Do mosquitoes have friends?
    Posts: 2,024
    Mallory wrote: »
    I am never bored during QoS, but some stretches of SP are very dull. They're both very flawed but I would rather watch QoS than SP most of the time.

    I agree with you 100% here, but for some reason I'm compelled to watch Spectre more often than QoS. I'm just too in love with the Rome, Altausse, L'Americain, Train, and Morocco sections of the film. I can take or leave the Hoffler bits, and the scene in Q's hotel room is dismal.

    Similarly, I love the South American flavour of QoS. You can almost feel the heat through the screen! Locations absolutely do make a difference, so I completely understand why you feel the way you do!

    With SP, I do enjoy the first third up to the end of the Rome meeting, the train fight, and the initial scenes in Blofeld's crater. Everything else lacks energy and focus and I find myself drifting or wishing I was watching SF instead.

    Good point about Rome, I should have mentioned my dislike of the car chase. The only two moments I like in there are when they're drifting around the Vatican, and the very end when Bond ejects and then lands on the bridge.

    They spent £25m on just cars alone for that sequence....

    I’ll let that sink in.

    What a waste of money for such a placid boring ass car chase.

    True. But the cars themselves were brilliant.

    The cars (Aston Vs Jag) was just a rehash of DAD. Id rather Hinx had an Italian supercar, as they were in Rome, such as a Lambo or a Ferrari.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited December 2020 Posts: 7,517
    Mallory wrote: »
    Mallory wrote: »
    I am never bored during QoS, but some stretches of SP are very dull. They're both very flawed but I would rather watch QoS than SP most of the time.

    I agree with you 100% here, but for some reason I'm compelled to watch Spectre more often than QoS. I'm just too in love with the Rome, Altausse, L'Americain, Train, and Morocco sections of the film. I can take or leave the Hoffler bits, and the scene in Q's hotel room is dismal.

    Similarly, I love the South American flavour of QoS. You can almost feel the heat through the screen! Locations absolutely do make a difference, so I completely understand why you feel the way you do!

    With SP, I do enjoy the first third up to the end of the Rome meeting, the train fight, and the initial scenes in Blofeld's crater. Everything else lacks energy and focus and I find myself drifting or wishing I was watching SF instead.

    Good point about Rome, I should have mentioned my dislike of the car chase. The only two moments I like in there are when they're drifting around the Vatican, and the very end when Bond ejects and then lands on the bridge.

    They spent £25m on just cars alone for that sequence....

    I’ll let that sink in.

    What a waste of money for such a placid boring ass car chase.

    True. But the cars themselves were brilliant.

    The cars (Aston Vs Jag) was just a rehash of DAD. Id rather Hinx had an Italian supercar, as they were in Rome, such as a Lambo or a Ferrari.

    That's actually a good point. I was thinking of the DAD car battle on the ice sheet, which I actually think is awesome and put SP to shame.

    I gadget-laden Ferrari would have been great, because AFAIK it's still italian owned?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,648
    What truly boggles my mind is how many folks like SF over SP... I'd almost rather watch MR than SF... almost... ;) SP was very far from perfect (like TND), but it was highly entertaining (like YOLT).
    *Raises shields*
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