Is Bond the worst spy in the world in Skyfall?

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  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited March 2014 Posts: 12,459
    deleted
  • edited March 2014 Posts: 5,767
    deleted


  • Posts: 55
    Basically yes that much is obvious. I will say no more for fear of hurt feelings
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited March 2014 Posts: 12,459
    deleted again -

    And I'll just say that I read the thread too fast! I just looked it over again. The poster I was getting annoyed with was not Matt007; it was AstonLotus. I apologize, @Matt007. I read his posts as continuations of yours.

    @AstonLotus, I don't really apologize fully. I do find your posts with your "facts" on this thread a tad annoying ... but perhaps I did not need to word my response quite so strongly. If those handy "facts" were put in place, you would have a rather boring film. You can do that to any film really.

    And I need to just post less in the evenings when I am so exhausted.
  • You could argue that Craig's Bond is a bit of a loser. I mean, in CR he doesn't twig that Vesper is a double agent - okay, that's Fleming - he only goes on to beat Le Chiffre due to Vesper's help resussitating him, he loses the girl at the end AND the money (I don't think he loses the money in the novel).

    In QoS he goes to Haiti, doesn't even bother to check out the room of the bloke he kills, for clues. Brazenly hangs about doing Steve McQueen impressions around the villain's dock - subtle. Doesn't quiz the gal after he saves her.

    Okay, he does kill the guy at the end, indirectly, and I guess it's clever how in both films the villain is killed by Quantum, that never occurred to me before. But we don't feel the joy of it, because we don't see Quantum's comeuppance and the organisation is left sketchy.
  • edited March 2014 Posts: 5,767
    You could argue that Craig's Bond is a bit of a loser.
    In his first two films CraigBond was obviously new in the game and learning, so there it´s expected that he doesn´t win them all. In SF, M´s sudden misjudgement pulls a bit the rug from under his feet, which is again understandable. Why that story had to follow immediately after CR and QOS, I have no clue, especially since Bond in SF seems to be quite seasoned. With that three-film-succession, one really could be inclined to wonder what a mess MI6 is, being busier cleaning their own house than doing their actual job.
  • Posts: 7,493
    Bond has NEVER been, and never will be, a perfect agent. That's been pretty apparent from the start. He gets constantly outsmarted, falls into traps, gets beat up, leaves dead trails behind and kills people he shouldn't. He gets (innocent) women killed by the hundreds and is constantly relying on gadgets or share luck to get out of situations. The list goes on... It's a well known joke, even for people who don't really know the series, that the villains allways do a lousy job killing him of. Him getting a code name and then either intentionally or nonintentionally blowing it, is also a famliar part of the formula. If the fact that Bond is not a perfect, faultless spy is an issue, its kind of ridiculous to bring it up now...

    What has made Bond a global icon is his character traits and the fascinating situations he gets into. And thats the point. Its those human traits that make him relatable and interesting to the audiance, and makes him stand out more than lets say Superman. The only supernatural part about the man is his womanizing skills.

    Just think of this: In every single film Bond gets captured by the villain in some way. Every single one! A coincidence? The filmmakers wants to portray him in critical and vulnerable situations. That's what creates excitement. That sence of vulnerability is what makes Bond work, and not least what makes this film work.

    The thing that matters though, in a heroic sence, is that he allways prevails and saves the day in the end, no matter what obstacles gets in his way or what initial mistakes he might have done. That's what heroism is. Bond is not a worse spy in this film than in any other. Its just the nature and essence of Bond. Take it or leave it.
  • Posts: 14,754
    boldfinger wrote:
    You could argue that Craig's Bond is a bit of a loser.
    In his first two films CraigBond was obviously new in the game and learning, so there it´s expected that he doesn´t win them all. In SF, M´s sudden misjudgement pulls a bit the rug from under his feet, which is again understandable. Why that story had to follow immediately after CR and QOS, I have no clue, especially since Bond in SF seems to be quite seasoned. With that three-film-succession, one really could be inclined to wonder what a mess MI6 is, being busier cleaning their own house than doing their actual job.

    Not unlike the real MI6 then. Its history is not short of scandals, mismanagement, bad decisions, bad gambles, etc. And let's not get started about MI5, which nearly got run by a KGB mole.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited March 2014 Posts: 4,399
    AstonLotus wrote:
    My problem with Bond in SF is that he screws up in every way possible.He fails to get the list, fails to save Severine, doesnt seem to care that Patrice is murdering guards in that building in shanghai and doesnt even lift a finger to stop him from doing so, breaks into his boss' house for the second time in his career for no reason, kidnaps his boss and takes her to a remote area with no backup to take on an army of mercenaries.

    Oh and he gets his boss killed.

    again...
    AstonLotus wrote:
    He fails to get the list

    how is that his fault?... he wasn't the one who ordered the shot (M) and he wasn't the one who pulled the trigger (Moneypenny)... if left on his own, we could have been almost certain that he would've recovered the drive and the list..
    AstonLotus wrote:
    fails to save Severine

    Bond was in no position to possibly save her... and Severine was a product of her own demise by her lousy taste in men... this same sort of thing has happened all the time to Bond... Jill and Tilly Masterson (GF), Paula Caplin (TB), Aki (YOLT), HIS WIFE (OHMSS), Plenty O'Toole (DAF), Rosie Carver (LALD), Andrea Anders (TMWTGG), Corinne Dufour (MR), Countess Lisl (FYEO), Paris Carver (TND), Fields (QOS)...... and thats not even counting the amount of Male allies he's let die either..... so does that mean in all those other films Bond is a lousy spy??
    AstonLotus wrote:
    doesnt seem to care that Patrice is murdering guards in that building in shanghai and doesnt even lift a finger to stop him from doing so

    That wasn't his mission... his mission was to find out what Patrice was up to, and who he was working for... and given Bond's surroundings, he couldn't just rush Patrice - he very likely would've gotten himself shot and killed - being in a completely open room - except for the glass partitions, there wasn't anything to hide behind to make a better approach on Patrice - he had to quietly use the shadows..... remember, he almost did give away his position once to Patrice...
    AstonLotus wrote:
    breaks into his boss' house for the second time in his career for no reason

    thats just nitpicking - and it bears nothing on your original statement..... so i wont even dignify it with an explanation..
    AstonLotus wrote:
    kidnaps his boss and takes her to a remote area with no backup to take on an army of mercenaries.

    Oh and he gets his boss killed.

    it worked didn't it?.... i think so.... and if wasn't for one misplaced shot by one of Silva's men, M would've survived..... IN FACT M probably still could've survived had she told Bond that she had been shot, but she chose to keep it to herself - in essence, sacrificing herself so that Bond could get the job done - in way, repaying him for almost killing him at the start of the film... she trusted him to finish the job..
  • Posts: 1,314
    Look I understand the need to place Bond in jeopardy. There is no film otherwise.

    This thread came from something my mate said in the pub. Namely Bond kidnaps his boss to protect her and ends up getting her killed while Silva succeeds in his mission.

    It's the equivalent of goldfingers bomb going off, but Bond killing him.

    Or the goldeneye satellite exploding over London, but trevelyan dying.

    Just an observation. The villains plot is fulfilled.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited March 2014 Posts: 4,399
    Matt007 wrote:
    Look I understand the need to place Bond in jeopardy. There is no film otherwise.

    This thread came from something my mate said in the pub. Namely Bond kidnaps his boss to protect her and ends up getting her killed while Silva succeeds in his mission.

    It's the equivalent of goldfingers bomb going off, but Bond killing him.

    Or the goldeneye satellite exploding over London, but trevelyan dying.

    Just an observation. The villains plot is fulfilled.

    no it's not.... in Silva's perverse mindset, HE had to be the one that killed her - remember what he told his men "No one touch her, she is mine!"... anything otherwise and he would've felt cheated out of his life's mission - which is why he couldn't bring himself to kill her at the end..
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,659
    HASEROT wrote:
    in Silva's perverse mindset, HE had to be the one that killed her - remember what he told his men "No one touch her, she is mine!"... anything otherwise and he would've felt cheated out of his life's mission - which is why he couldn't bring himself to kill her at the end..
    This is kind of splitting hairs. His efforts killed her even if he didn't by his own confirmed hand.
    Bottom line, Purvis & Wade handed in a mediocre script with recycled stuff from TWINE (but updated) & Logan did his best to punch it up, Mendes brought his considerable directing skills to bear, & Craig put his all into it.
    They concocted a winner out of what could have easily been a total loser. No mean feat IMO.
    But then don't listen to me, I forgive QOS' many 'sins' as well. :))
  • Posts: 1,314
    He also said "it has to be you" to M so she would commit suicide right at the end.

    Agree though. As a whole the film is great. Would like to know more about logans contributions. Have high hopes for bond 24.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited March 2014 Posts: 4,399
    chrisisall wrote:
    HASEROT wrote:
    in Silva's perverse mindset, HE had to be the one that killed her - remember what he told his men "No one touch her, she is mine!"... anything otherwise and he would've felt cheated out of his life's mission - which is why he couldn't bring himself to kill her at the end..
    This is kind of splitting hairs. His efforts killed her even if he didn't by his own confirmed hand.
    Bottom line, Purvis & Wade handed in a mediocre script with recycled stuff from TWINE (but updated) & Logan did his best to punch it up, Mendes brought his considerable directing skills to bear, & Craig put his all into it.
    They concocted a winner out of what could have easily been a total loser. No mean feat IMO.
    But then don't listen to me, I forgive QOS' many 'sins' as well. :))

    in terms of splitting hairs - i guess it's all how you view it.... personally, his efforts were all constructed so it could lead to him, and just him killing her - like in the courtroom - one of his men could've capped her right off the bat, but he had to be the one to do it - but he took too much time relishing the moment that the opportunity slipped through his fingers.... and it again speaks to why at the end he breaks down when she is shot "You're hurt??.. who did this to you??".... it's a perverse obsession with wanting her untouched or untainted before he could get to her, and knowing that she was dying and it wasn't by his hands personally makes all his works and efforts for nothing - which is why he turned the gun on himself (along with her) and wanted her to kill them both.... what else was there to live for? he had failed.....

    recycling plot points is nothing new for Bond.... AVTAK is an updated GF, and MR is almost a carbon copy of TSWLM - and TND is a branch off the TSWLM tree as well... so that doesn't really bother me... besides, they took what worked in TWINE - scraped off the horse crap and recrafted it into a dynamite film....

    and i'm one of the few that liked QOS from day one, despite it's shortcomings..
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,195
    @haserot, I'm right there with you with QoS: the film never grew on me, I fell in love with it after the first viewing.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,659
    HASEROT wrote:
    knowing that she was dying and it wasn't by his hands personally makes all his works and efforts for nothing - which is why he turned the gun on himself (along with her) and wanted her to kill them both
    Okay, yeah, that was pretty powerful.
  • Posts: 5,767
    HASEROT wrote:
    Matt007 wrote:
    Look I understand the need to place Bond in jeopardy. There is no film otherwise.

    This thread came from something my mate said in the pub. Namely Bond kidnaps his boss to protect her and ends up getting her killed while Silva succeeds in his mission.

    It's the equivalent of goldfingers bomb going off, but Bond killing him.

    Or the goldeneye satellite exploding over London, but trevelyan dying.

    Just an observation. The villains plot is fulfilled.

    no it's not.... in Silva's perverse mindset, HE had to be the one that killed her - remember what he told his men "No one touch her, she is mine!"... anything otherwise and he would've felt cheated out of his life's mission - which is why he couldn't bring himself to kill her at the end..
    chrisisall wrote:
    HASEROT wrote:
    in Silva's perverse mindset, HE had to be the one that killed her - remember what he told his men "No one touch her, she is mine!"... anything otherwise and he would've felt cheated out of his life's mission - which is why he couldn't bring himself to kill her at the end..
    This is kind of splitting hairs. His efforts killed her even if he didn't by his own confirmed hand.
    Bottom line, Purvis & Wade handed in a mediocre script with recycled stuff from TWINE (but updated) & Logan did his best to punch it up, Mendes brought his considerable directing skills to bear, & Craig put his all into it.
    They concocted a winner out of what could have easily been a total loser. No mean feat IMO.
    But then don't listen to me, I forgive QOS' many 'sins' as well. :))
    While we´re at it, I´d say that noone really knows if Silva´s agenda was fleshed out in every detail, not even himself. When he tells M at MI6 how he was tortured, it reminds me very much of the joker telling the story of his facial scars. And just like the Joker, Silva could have a new story up his sleeve for every new occasion for someone to listen. We don´t even know if what Silva tells Bond about his evaluation is true at all. At all, during the talk between Silva and Bond, when Bond is tied to the chair, Silva sometimes abruptly changes the direction of what he says, he seems to either pretty much have lost his marbles or very remotely controlling other people. Either way, it´s not clear at all what the details may be of his agenda.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    Matt007 wrote:
    This thread came from something my mate said in the pub. Namely Bond kidnaps his boss to protect her and ends up getting her killed while Silva succeeds in his mission.
    It was Bond's idea but surely the blame has to be put on Mallory. He shouldn't have allowed M to be put in such a dangerous situation. Also, with Silva being such a threat to national security, there should have been a whole army going after him to take him out.

    It makes sense to me why Bond would choose this strategy. He was only doing what he was trained to do. Mallory gambled and he got Silva's death from it but he lost something too.
  • Posts: 19,339
    pachazo wrote:
    Matt007 wrote:
    This thread came from something my mate said in the pub. Namely Bond kidnaps his boss to protect her and ends up getting her killed while Silva succeeds in his mission.
    It was Bond's idea but surely the blame has to be put on Mallory. He shouldn't have allowed M to be put in such a dangerous situation. Also, with Silva being such a threat to national security, there should have been a whole army going after him to take him out.

    It makes sense to me why Bond would choose this strategy. He was only doing what he was trained to do. Mallory gambled and he got Silva's death from it but he lost something too.

    Mallory wanted M out of the way anyway,he was pushing her into 'retirement',so she was expendable.

    He got what he wanted : M gone and Silva dead.

  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    boldfinger wrote:
    While we´re at it, I´d say that noone really knows if Silva´s agenda was fleshed out in every detail, not even himself. When he tells M at MI6 how he was tortured, it reminds me very much of the joker telling the story of his facial scars. And just like the Joker, Silva could have a new story up his sleeve for every new occasion for someone to listen.

    I would agree with that, if it were set up in the film as such..... the reason we know The Joker in TDK is telling lies about his scars, is because on 2 different occasions he's told 2 different stories.... Silva had only told one story, and there was no case in the movie itself where we find out if what Silva was saying was a lie - another than the embellishment of "back then I was her favorite" could obviously be his ego talking... It's clear that Silva's agenda was to kill M - and his motives were revenge for being left to die - everything he did was targeted at her...... he obviously thought more of her than she did him, and that had eaten away at him for years and years - there is pretty much a bastard son / mother relationship between the two.
    boldfinger wrote:
    We don´t even know if what Silva tells Bond about his evaluation is true at all. At all, during the talk between Silva and Bond, when Bond is tied to the chair, Silva sometimes abruptly changes the direction of what he says, he seems to either pretty much have lost his marbles or very remotely controlling other people. Either way, it´s not clear at all what the details may be of his agenda.

    again, i think it's clear that what Silva is telling Bond is the truth.... because earlier on, M admits to Tanner that Bond didn't pass any of his tests - Silva, knowing the truth, uses this against Bond in an attempt to put doubt into 007's head about M's trust towards him
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited March 2014 Posts: 4,399
    barryt007 wrote:
    Mallory wanted M out of the way anyway,he was pushing her into 'retirement',so she was expendable.

    He got what he wanted : M gone and Silva dead.

    Mallory had no clue what happened to M until Bond was already halfway to Skyfall Lodge..... remember, Bold told Q (more or less) that only himself, Q, and M were to know what was going on - obviously later we see Tanner involved as well.... thats when Mallory came in like a headmaster of a school catching two students up past curfew lol..
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    barryt007 wrote:
    Mallory wanted M out of the way anyway,he was pushing her into 'retirement',so she was expendable.

    He got what he wanted : M gone and Silva dead.
    That is certainly one way of looking at it. Clever little devil isn't he?
  • Posts: 19,339
    HASEROT wrote:
    barryt007 wrote:
    Mallory wanted M out of the way anyway,he was pushing her into 'retirement',so she was expendable.

    He got what he wanted : M gone and Silva dead.

    Mallory had no clue what happened to M until Bond was already halfway to Skyfall Lodge..... remember, Bold told Q (more or less) that only himself, Q, and M were to know what was going on - obviously later we see Tanner involved as well.... thats when Mallory came in like a headmaster of a school catching two students up past curfew lol..

    No i know that he didnt know,but when he found out it made no difference,M was past her 'sell by date' and he just let Bond get on with it and whatever happened happened.

  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    barryt007 wrote:
    HASEROT wrote:
    barryt007 wrote:
    Mallory wanted M out of the way anyway,he was pushing her into 'retirement',so she was expendable.

    He got what he wanted : M gone and Silva dead.

    Mallory had no clue what happened to M until Bond was already halfway to Skyfall Lodge..... remember, Bold told Q (more or less) that only himself, Q, and M were to know what was going on - obviously later we see Tanner involved as well.... thats when Mallory came in like a headmaster of a school catching two students up past curfew lol..

    No i know that he didnt know,but when he found out it made no difference,M was past her 'sell by date' and he just let Bond get on with it and whatever happened happened.

    hmm...... never really thought of it that way.... personally I am inclined to think that he didn't have any sort of ulterior motive in letting Bond take her up to Scotland, that using M as bait would be the only way to get rid of Silva......... but, you present a very interesting way of looking at it as well.....
  • edited March 2014 Posts: 19,339
    HASEROT wrote:
    barryt007 wrote:
    HASEROT wrote:
    barryt007 wrote:
    Mallory wanted M out of the way anyway,he was pushing her into 'retirement',so she was expendable.

    He got what he wanted : M gone and Silva dead.

    Mallory had no clue what happened to M until Bond was already halfway to Skyfall Lodge..... remember, Bold told Q (more or less) that only himself, Q, and M were to know what was going on - obviously later we see Tanner involved as well.... thats when Mallory came in like a headmaster of a school catching two students up past curfew lol..

    No i know that he didnt know,but when he found out it made no difference,M was past her 'sell by date' and he just let Bond get on with it and whatever happened happened.



    hmm...... never really thought of it that way.... personally I am inclined to think that he didn't have any sort of ulterior motive in letting Bond take her up to Scotland, that using M as bait would be the only way to get rid of Silva......... but, you present a very interesting way of looking at it as well.....

    Yep,i just feel that this would explain why there was no assistance allocated to helping Bond and M and also it would save a rather large pension being issued,clearing the way for Mallory to slip into office and removing a 'reluctant to quit' M a lot easier.

    And of course if Bond killed Silva and M survived then she still is made to retire,so no harm done either way - its win win.

  • RC7RC7
    edited March 2014 Posts: 10,512
    Matt007 wrote:
    Look I understand the need to place Bond in jeopardy. There is no film otherwise.

    This thread came from something my mate said in the pub. Namely Bond kidnaps his boss to protect her and ends up getting her killed while Silva succeeds in his mission.

    It's the equivalent of goldfingers bomb going off, but Bond killing him.

    Or the goldeneye satellite exploding over London, but trevelyan dying.

    Just an observation. The villains plot is fulfilled.

    It's nothing of the sort. Firstly, he doesn't kidnap her, to protect her. She's the pawn, he knows it and she knows it. It's her last hurrah. So, the villain's plot isn't fulfilled. Silva never sees 'M' die and he has no idea she's gravely injured - so in his final moment he has lost.

    If Silva had wanted to merely kill her, he could have done it any point. MI6/M's apparent incompetence is brought in to view via Silva and his scheme. So when the time is right - the hearing - he strikes, but Bond screws it for him. Bond then takes the initiative, wanting to get her out of the highly surveilled city and on to a level playing field. That's why it's poetic that Bond takes him down, in front of 'M', with something as primitive as a knife. Had 'M' survived, the film wouldn't have had nearly the same resonance. It would have been a predictable, tired excuse for a conclusion. As it is, it delivers something a little more 'nuanced', although some detractors would of course disagree. If one doesn't like this narratively, that's fine, but it makes sense.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited March 2014 Posts: 28,694
    pachazo wrote:
    barryt007 wrote:
    Mallory wanted M out of the way anyway,he was pushing her into 'retirement',so she was expendable.

    He got what he wanted : M gone and Silva dead.
    That is certainly one way of looking at it. Clever little devil isn't he?

    Ahhh, I get it now! Then in Bond 24 he'll be revealed as Lord Voldemort and makes it his mission to kill Bond with the Avada Kedavra curse to insure his secret is kept and his plan for domestic control of Britain is assured. Or something like that... :-\"
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    He is not Voldemort, he is Blofeld don t you know?
  • Posts: 11,425
    RC7 wrote:
    Matt007 wrote:
    Look I understand the need to place Bond in jeopardy. There is no film otherwise.

    This thread came from something my mate said in the pub. Namely Bond kidnaps his boss to protect her and ends up getting her killed while Silva succeeds in his mission.

    It's the equivalent of goldfingers bomb going off, but Bond killing him.

    Or the goldeneye satellite exploding over London, but trevelyan dying.

    Just an observation. The villains plot is fulfilled.

    It's nothing of the sort. Firstly, he doesn't kidnap her, to protect her. She's the pawn, he knows it and she knows it. It's her last hurrah. So, the villain's plot isn't fulfilled. Silva never sees 'M' die and he has no idea she's gravely injured - so in his final moment he has lost.

    If Silva had wanted to merely kill her, he could have done it any point. MI6/M's apparent incompetence is brought in to view via Silva and his scheme. So when the time is right - the hearing - he strikes, but Bond screws it for him. Bond then takes the initiative, wanting to get her out of the highly surveilled city and on to a level playing field. That's why it's poetic that Bond takes him down, in front of 'M', with something as primitive as a knife. Had 'M' survived, the film wouldn't have had nearly the same resonance. It would have been a predictable, tired excuse for a conclusion. As it is, it delivers something a little more 'nuanced', although some detractors would of course disagree. If one doesn't like this narratively, that's fine, but it makes sense.

    I didn't mind Dench kicking the bucket - infact, it was overdue. The amount of screentime she'd been eating up frankly required it.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    At least we finally have a male M. Too bad it is not Messervy, but Mallory will do fine.
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