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Why did Craig succeed when Dalton failed?

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  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited January 2015 Posts: 11,189
    I remember @Bondsum pointed out to me some time ago that GE also had a lot of faces most known for television at that point (Dench, Coltrane, Bean and of course Brosnan). But all of those people managed to go on to have very succesfull screen careers. In Kill's case the cast remained predominantly American TV actors after the film or at most had supporting roles in bigger films. I think the most notable role from anyone was Robert Davi appearing in Showgirls.

    Incidently, what did your friends think of LTK @Birdelson?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited January 2015 Posts: 17,696
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Another thing that was glaringly out front at the time is that much of the cast of LTK were actors known for their television work.
    First, snob much? :))
    Second, what??
    Davi was known to me from Die Hard (funny that both Johnsons were in LTK) & Goonies, not TV. Zerbe was from Omega Man. Barnes was the only exclusively TV actor as far as I can see (Three's Company).
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Davi was known to me from Die Hard (funny that both Johnsons were in LTK)

    Crap, I learned something today! I did not realize before that Hawkins was from DH too. Include Kamen's music and we have a threesome.

    DH was quite influential no doubt.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited January 2015 Posts: 11,189
    Looking him up on Wikipedia Davi had quite a few TV roles early on in his career and since LTK he's starred in an NBC series called Profiler.

    He definitely fits that shady figure very well.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    It's true that the people casted for Florida had a tv feel no doubt. Not Krest or Leiter (at least not to me) but certainly Killfer, Hawkins and Sharkey as well as Barnes/Mrs. Leiter.
  • DRush76DRush76
    edited January 2015 Posts: 533
    It was simply bad timing. Following the release of "LICENSE TO KILL", the Bond franchise found itself in the middle of some lawsuit that lasted for several years. By the time EON Productions was ready to shoot a new Bond film, Dalton was through with the role and they moved on to Pierce Brosnan, who was an earlier candidate back in the mid-80s.

    There was nothing new about Craig's take on the role. He is doing a great job. But he and Brosnan simply continued what Dalton had started in 1986/87 . . . namely projecting more angst into the Bond character. It was Dalton who started all this angst factor for both the franchise and for other action characters over the years. Everyone else from Indiana Jones to John McClane to Jack Bauer to James Howlett aka the Wolverine to Tom Quinn have been following in his footsteps ever since. And Dalton doesn't even get credit for this.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Hedison has had a career mainly on the television:
    http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0373314/
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited January 2015 Posts: 17,696
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I'm just telling you how the film was perceived, and I think that there is substance behind it.
    No, you're telling me your perception of how the film was perceived. I was there too, and the only 'wtf' in my group was the Three's Company chick. And not because she was a TV actress, because she was known for her silly, not her serious. You may be telling me how the show business community perceived it, but here on the ground we didn't really care what was considered 'tacky' or not along those particular lines. But maybe where you're from it was different...
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Except for LALD (1973) and THE FLY (1958) David Hedison was almost strictly known for television work.

    I didn't know that. I guess I knew him from LALD, so that was my context.

    The others though for sure had a tv flavour. Even the Chinese agent (Cary-Hiroyuki Tagawa) in the middle of the film - I'm sure I've seen him in some tv movies. Same with Don Stroud as Heller
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,696
    And Die Hard was tacky for hiring that TV actor from Moonlighting as its star I guess... :P
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    chrisisall wrote: »
    And Die Hard was tacky for hiring that TV actor from Moonlighting as its star I guess... :P

    How dare they!
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited January 2015 Posts: 11,189
    chrisisall wrote: »
    And Die Hard was tacky for hiring that TV actor from Moonlighting as its star I guess... :P

    Yeah but to be fair DH was briliantly directed and had the legend that is Alan Rickman.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,696
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    And Die Hard was tacky for hiring that TV actor from Moonlighting as its star I guess... :P

    Yeah but to be fair DH was briliantly directed and had the legend that is Alan Rickman.
    But it was David Addison up there on the big screen! That's all I could think of for the whole movie! It ruined it for me.
    Not really, but ya see how silly that TV vs. film elitism is?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    And LTK had Benecio Del Toro!
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    LTK has a pretty good cast.

    The whole TV/film thing is less relevant now. You could say LTK was ahead of the curve on this as well. If anything, the best TV is now better than most Hollywood.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Getafix wrote: »
    LTK has a pretty good cast.

    The whole TV/film thing is less relevant now. You could say LTK was ahead of the curve on this as well. If anything, the best TV is now better than most Hollywood.

    I don't really buy that. LTK was not exactly in the same league as Breaking Bad quality-wise.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    LTK has a pretty good cast.

    The whole TV/film thing is less relevant now. You could say LTK was ahead of the curve on this as well. If anything, the best TV is now better than most Hollywood.

    I like LTK very much, but I have to admit there was a somewhat pedestrian quality to the casting. I felt the sameway about most of the 90's/00's mind you (except for GE and perhaps TND to a slightly lesser extent) - up until CR.

    Supporting casting is arguably a meaningful differentiator between the Craig and Dalton eras, in favour of Craig.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,696
    Getafix wrote: »
    LTK has a pretty good cast.
    I think the weakest link was Carey Lowell, but even she wasn't bad (I actually like her a lot).
    Getafix wrote: »
    The whole TV/film thing is less relevant now.
    The 'TV is where washed up film actors go' was an actual thing into the 60's. In the 70's that began to change I think due to the mini-series phenomenon where big actors could do TV & not be stuck with if for years. By the 80's all heck was breaking loose.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    LTK has a pretty good cast.

    The whole TV/film thing is less relevant now. You could say LTK was ahead of the curve on this as well. If anything, the best TV is now better than most Hollywood.

    I don't really buy that. LTK was not exactly in the same league as Breaking Bad quality-wise.

    You misunderstood me. I meant TV now is much better.

    I tried watching Breaking bad hated it.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited January 2015 Posts: 11,189
    :-O How can anyone hate Breaking Bad?

    The first season is a bit slow but its great from the mid seasons onwards. Personally I think the last season is the best.

    You sound a bit like my granddad. I always found it amusing that he seemed to disliked more contemporary TV/films than he liked (incidently he thought Daniel Craig was miscast and Sean Connery wasn't all that great in the 60s).
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    "Getafix wrote: »
    I tried watching Breaking bad hated it.

    Try and stick with it. It's groundbreaking stuff imo. Very unconventional and somewhat eccentric.

    Then again, I thought I would hate Dexter, and ended up loving that too.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited January 2015 Posts: 11,189
    bondjames wrote: »
    "Getafix wrote: »
    I tried watching Breaking bad hated it.

    Try and stick with it. It's groundbreaking stuff imo. Very unconventional and somewhat eccentric.

    Then again, I thought I would hate Dexter, and ended up loving that too.

    I loved Dexter for the first 4 seasons but gave up half way through S5.

    Anyway, we're a little off topic. My impression was that IN THE 80s a lot of American TV shows were a bit trashy with questionnable acting and limited production values. LTK does have this a bit.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    I watched 2 or 3 seasons of BB expecting to 'get it' but never did. I can't stand the central character - just wanted him to get shot, which think he does in the end. Don't understand how some people supposedly find him inspirational.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    "Getafix wrote: »
    I tried watching Breaking bad hated it.

    Try and stick with it. It's groundbreaking stuff imo. Very unconventional and somewhat eccentric.

    Then again, I thought I would hate Dexter, and ended up loving that too.

    I loved Dexter for the first 4 seasons but gave up half way through S5.

    5 & 6 were really bad (especially 6). 7 was a return to form but 8 was hopeless. Still better than a lot of other stuff out there but yes, it nosedived fast. S2 was my favourite (then again I'm a sucker for Jaime Murray).
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    bondjames wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    "Getafix wrote: »
    I tried watching Breaking bad hated it.

    Try and stick with it. It's groundbreaking stuff imo. Very unconventional and somewhat eccentric.

    Then again, I thought I would hate Dexter, and ended up loving that too.

    I loved Dexter for the first 4 seasons but gave up half way through S5.

    5 & 6 were really bad (especially 6). 7 was a return to form but 8 was hopeless. Still better than a lot of other stuff out there but yes, it nosedived fast. S2 was my favourite (then again I'm a sucker for Jaime Murray).

    The books are worth a go if you haven't read any of them. Same kind of feel as the show but different stories.

    I really didn't like Julia Stiles in S5. Bad actress and annoying character.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Agreed on Stiles. Thanks, I'll try to get a hold of the books soon.

    I find it's such a fascinating and inventive premise. Same with Breaking Bad.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    8 series is a lot to ask for from any show
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Dexter was fine for it's first 4 seasons but after that it descended into formulaic garbage, that final season was dire.

    I loved Breaking Bad but never found Walter White inspirational it was the same with Soprano's it was utter genius but by the fourth season I practically hated every single character, I don't find it necessary to be able to relate to character for a series to be good. If you are relating to a murderous gangster or a serial killer I'm keeping far from you.

    As for Craig being more successful than Dalton, you can relate some of it to the time and that Dalton was the right Bond and the wrong time but Dalton just didn't exude the charisma that Craig does as the character and outside of whether he read all the books and reflects the most Fleming any actor has in the series the general public didn't like him in the role.

    As fans we see his strengths but to the masses they just saw a pretty serious and humourless actor who was more comfortable on the stage than on the screen. I'm not knocking Dalton as an actor, he's very good in the right role but despite him conveying some aspects of the character very well he also fell down as he was so different to Moore and coming only 2 years after a Bond who had dominated the role for 12 years he was always going have a tough act to follow, the general public loved Rog they didn't poor old Tim.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,634
    A slightly darker Bond in a more serious movie is what I guess the Dalton and Craig Bonds have most in common. It happened to Dalton when for some weird reason audiences and critics weren't up to it. I say weird because almost everything else that happened in the later eighties was fairly dark. CR was released when the horror genre make a lot of money off their torture porn output, when Jason Bourne made us realise that spies can have a pretty dramatic life, when Batman was about to become really scary, when the world craved agents who could protect us from terrorists.

    So Craig did not succeed; audiences did.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,696
    Well put, @DarthDimi!
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