A question to those who care not for Brosnan's Bond

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  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    002 wrote:
    I know the Brosnan fans blame the scripts, but a decent actor could have at least tried to make them better. All that energy channelled into being unbearably smug, could have been put into creating a new Bond, rather than a greatest hits.

    Maybe Brosnan is a good actor andd I have seen the wrong films of his, but I doubt it.

    Could Dalton have saved The Tourist?

    I havnt seen the tourist and I didn't even know Dalton was in it until I read your post. This brings me to tge point that Dalton wasn't tge lead actor in that movie. Craig is tge lead actor in QoS, arguably a weak film, supported by a fractured script and yet, Craig comes out unscathed because he's that good am actor in which his acting ability was still able to barge it's way through an otherwise disappointing film.
  • Tourist is was ok, bought it recently problem is its so blatantly obvious what's going on. Dalton i thought was pretty good in the film, though like pretty much everything he has done from playing the green baron to hot fuzz. Brosnan movies outside bond, i don't make a great effort to watch.
  • The problem most people have with Brosnan IMO stems solely from DAD.

    It was so badly conceived that I believe it soured the opinion of a lot to the rest of the Brosnan films, I liked GE, TND & TWiNE but I couldn't get my head round DAD, it was badly written & IMO the time that Purvis & Wade should have been relieved of their writing duties because since then the producers have consistently had to bring in another writer to polish the script.

    So let's give Pierce a break, Larry Olivier would have struggled to make DAD look anything other than the Turkey it was.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,136
    Agentprovo wrote:
    The problem most people have with Brosnan IMO stems solely from DAD.

    It was so badly conceived that I believe it soured the opinion of a lot to the rest of the Brosnan films, I liked GE, TND & TWiNE but I couldn't get my head round DAD, it was badly written & IMO the time that Purvis & Wade should have been relieved of their writing duties because since then the producers have consistently had to bring in another writer to polish the script.

    So let's give Pierce a break, Larry Olivier would have struggled to make DAD look anything other than the Turkey it was.

    I generally follow this line as well.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited November 2012 Posts: 1,243
    Agentprovo wrote:
    The problem most people have with Brosnan IMO stems solely from DAD.

    It was so badly conceived that I believe it soured the opinion of a lot to the rest of the Brosnan films, I liked GE, TND & TWiNE but I couldn't get my head round DAD, it was badly written & IMO the time that Purvis & Wade should have been relieved of their writing duties because since then the producers have consistently had to bring in another writer to polish the script.

    So let's give Pierce a break, Larry Olivier would have struggled to make DAD look anything other than the Turkey it was.

    I think had Brosnan taken elements of Dalton's direction, he would have stayed on as Bond. He could of got away with the serious style easily.
    Getafix wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    Was it an instant dislike based on a perceived tonal change from Dalton's movies?
    Was it a reconsideration later after his movies had been around a while?
    Is it that you just don't like Brosnan as an actor?

    I'm sincerely curious, because he used to be my favourite Bond actor, however since I've read the Fleming novels & re-discovered Dalton's work, Brosnan has moved down a notch for me, but he's still in 3 of my top 10 Bond movies...

    Was it Die Another Day? Is that what did it? ;)

    I was a big Dalton fan and was therefore disappointed when after I'd been waiting for 6 years he stepped away from the role. For me Dalton had made the part his own from the first scenes of TLD (I don't think any one else has done this quite so convincingly apart from SC and perhaps DC). I was not a huge fan of LTK but still enjoyed elements of it and appreciated Dalt's performance. I was looking forward to his third film being a return to something more like TLD. Dalton had given interviews saying he was not particularly happy about the tone of LTK (he only got the script days before filming) and that he wanted his third to be a bit more light-hearted. Any way, wasn't to be.

    Unlike many of our US members, I had never heard of Brosnan in the UK. Remmington Steel was not watched by anyone that I knew and Brosnan was therefore an unknown quantity. He appeared at the press conference in a shaggy beard and he wasn't Dalton, so I wasn't automatically well disposed towards him, but at the same time I wanted a new Bond movie and wanted it to be good, so I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

    However, my dislike for his Bond was almost immediate. There was something slimy about him. He had none of the toughness of Connery of Dalts and none of the charm of Roger. When his first appearance on screen was hanging upside down in a toilet my heart sank. I thought back to Dalton's first appearance on Gibraltar - the epitome of the screen hero - and compared it to what was unfolding before my eyes. The PTS (and the rest of the film) was dreary. The whole film is a mix of machine gun fire and excessive hair products in my memory. The plane going over the cliff was a metaphor for the movie for me and it never improved after that.

    I therefore went into Tomorrow Never Dies with low expectations but was pleasantly surprised. It has a decent PTS and the first half at least of the film is half decently scripted and directed. It remains IMO Brozza's best effort. He isn't great in it but he's slightly better than in GE. However TWINE and DAD demonstrated that Brosnan's Bond wasn't really going anywhere.

    I was however surprised not long after TWINE to see Brosnan in The Tailor of Panama, in which I thought he was excellent. This changed my view of Brozza as an actor, because I realised he could actually act. Shame he never approached Bond with any seriousness. I think he saw the role as a bit of a laugh. It's unfortunate that he bought the line that Dalton's Bond was a failure, because I think this made him think there was no point in pursuing a more serious Bond performance. DC has of course shown how wrong he was.



    Nicely written @Getafix Brosnan did buy the line that Dalton's serious Bond was a failure and ironic considering he had to be replaced by Craig the ultra serious Bond.
  • edited November 2012 Posts: 11,189
    Agentprovo wrote:
    The problem most people have with Brosnan IMO stems solely from DAD.

    It was so badly conceived that I believe it soured the opinion of a lot to the rest of the Brosnan films, I liked GE, TND & TWiNE but I couldn't get my head round DAD, it was badly written & IMO the time that Purvis & Wade should have been relieved of their writing duties because since then the producers have consistently had to bring in another writer to polish the script.

    So let's give Pierce a break, Larry Olivier would have struggled to make DAD look anything other than the Turkey it was.

    This is my belief too. True a fair number of people never liked him but I genuinely believe that had he made a final film that had been - at the very least - good he woudn't be savaged as much now.

    Did Brosnan say Dalton's Bond was a failure? In the James Bond Unmasked book I have he's quoted as saying "he (Dalton) played it right down the f**king tee".

    I've also, in the past, read that he thought Dalton was let down by "the product". Kind of ironic really because so was he. I don't ever remember Brosnan criticising Dalton's actual approach to the role.
  • PB Will always have Goldeneye, which i think is far superior to the other three.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited November 2012 Posts: 1,243
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Agentprovo wrote:
    The problem most people have with Brosnan IMO stems solely from DAD.

    It was so badly conceived that I believe it soured the opinion of a lot to the rest of the Brosnan films, I liked GE, TND & TWiNE but I couldn't get my head round DAD, it was badly written & IMO the time that Purvis & Wade should have been relieved of their writing duties because since then the producers have consistently had to bring in another writer to polish the script.

    So let's give Pierce a break, Larry Olivier would have struggled to make DAD look anything other than the Turkey it was.

    This is my belief too. True a fair number of people never liked him but I genuinely believe that had he made a final film that had been - at the very least - good he woudn't be savaged as much now.

    Did Brosnan say Dalton's Bond was a failure? In the James Bond Unmasked book I have he's quoted as saying "he (Dalton) played it right down the f**king tee".

    I've also, in the past, read that he thought Dalton was let down by "the product". Kind of ironic really because so was he. I don't ever remember Brosnan criticising Dalton's actual approach to the role.

    At the time of Goldeneye, he criticised the Dalton films as not being based in reality or grittyness. He was saying Goldeneye would be grounded in reality.

    He later changed his tune after he had done a few films and admired Dalton for being "brave". He respected Dalton's courage and now knows what it feels like to be on the receiving end after an actor leaves Bond.

    Brosnan's end to Bond was ironic as you say. He said Tim was let down by the scripts and so was Pierce. Pierce even more so and I am sure he is pissed at what Craig is getting now.

    But I doubt Pierce would have gone in Craig's direction fearing the backlash Dalton got. But if he came back as Bond, he would take more risk having seen the positive reception. But it's too late.

    I actually think Brosnan was a good Bond in bad films post TND. But Dalton had more fire in him and a F U attitude to expectations. Dalton was the anti-hero and less likeable which is cool.

  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,970
    002 wrote:
    I know the Brosnan fans blame the scripts, but a decent actor could have at least tried to make them better. All that energy channelled into being unbearably smug, could have been put into creating a new Bond, rather than a greatest hits.

    Maybe Brosnan is a good actor andd I have seen the wrong films of his, but I doubt it.

    Could Dalton have saved The Tourist?

    To be fair, Dalton wasn't the lead, Depp & Jolie were. I could say that his scenes were the best in the film, but he had what could not have amounted to much more than 5 minutes of screentime.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    acoppola wrote:
    But Dalton had more fire in him and a F U attitude to expectations. Dalton was the anti-hero and less likeable which is cool.

    This!
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited November 2012 Posts: 1,243
    doubleoego wrote:
    acoppola wrote:
    But Dalton had more fire in him and a F U attitude to expectations. Dalton was the anti-hero and less likeable which is cool.

    This!

    Thanks! I walked out of Skyfall yesterday almost being forgiven for thinking the Bond who came before Craig was Dalton. I loved Craig in the film and certainly had not forgotten what Dalton brought to the role years ago.

    Any actor who does not compromise his vision for a character even if it means ridicule is to be admired. Approval seekers are never cool in my book.

    Man, I know SF is the Bond film Dalton would have done for free for EON had he been younger. And it took EON almost two decades to catch up with what Dalton was talking about years ago.

    I think Dalton deserves accolades for managing to make a huge statement despite inheriting a support structure from the Moore era. That was not easy to work with and shows how a brilliant actor can rise above even inadequate scripts to his talent.

  • Posts: 11,189
    Wonder what Dalton and Brosnan thought of SF?
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Wonder what Dalton and Brosnan thought of SF?

    I doubt Brosnan will be happy to see it it. I think here is a rough idea of what Dalton would think @Bain123 http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/moviesnow/la-et-mn-skyfall-timothy-dalton-daniel-craig-bond-20121108,0,2428085.story
  • THERE'S NO POINT IN LEEVING IF YOU CAN'T FEEL ALIIVE? Isn't that what you saay Electra isn't that you mottooo? He knew all about my shooouulder, he knew where to huuuurt me.

    An acting powerhouse.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited November 2012 Posts: 1,243
    THERE'S NO POINT IN LEEVING IF YOU CAN'T FEEL ALIIVE? Isn't that what you saay Electra isn't that you mottooo? He knew all about my shooouulder, he knew where to huuuurt me.

    An acting powerhouse.

    I remember cringing in the cinema during that scene. It was high school play quality and as if no one checked the dailies and just went to cut then print.

    This is where I began to really miss Dalton and knew he would have made the scene phenomenal with an actress like Miss Marceau.

    I noticed that all the Bond actors that were not first choices for the role like Connery, Dalton and Craig made great impressions in their first films. Positive or negative, I can talk for ages about them.

  • THERE'S NO POINT IN LEEVING IF YOU CAN'T FEEL ALIIVE? Isn't that what you saay Electra isn't that you mottooo? He knew all about my shooouulder, he knew where to huuuurt me.

    An acting powerhouse.
    That makes me laugh every time, really is substandard.
  • DRESSED_TO_KILLDRESSED_TO_KILL Suspended
    edited November 2012 Posts: 260
    THE SCRIPTS THE SCRIPTS THE SCRIPTS THE SCRIPTS THE SCRIPTS THE SCRIPTS THE SCRPTS!

    Seriously, if Pierce got to play Bond the way HE wanted, his era would have been more than just "GE is a good film". It could have been amazing. Thanks for nothing, P&W. >:P

    I couldn't say it better myself. I completely agree, Brosnan was fed horrible scripts, EON tried to make Brosnan more into a superspy, a big action star. When really Brosnan is a great character actor. He could played Bond darker, more conniving and ruthlessly.

    I could imagine it now, Brosnan playing Bond, walking into a gloomy darkly lit strip club after just killing his target who was a political threat to MI6 for threatening to go public on a big scandal involving unwarranted assassinations. Bond orders a drink while saying to the waitress, "A MARTINI, SHAKEN, NOT STIRRED, AND MAKE IT FAST BITC*. Then Bond lights up a cigarette and makes a quiet call on his cell phone to Bill Tanner, "It's done". The waitress returns to Bond with his drink. Bond sips his drink and says ,"I SAID SHAKEN, NOT STIRRED BITC*. The waitress starts to cry alittle, so Bond says, "Listen today's been a tough day, just get me another drink" . Bond looks at his suit, its dirty and ripped from escaping the scene of his last target. Bond gets His drink finally, procedes on to drink it and the movie ends with him all alone in.the gloomy smoke filled eerie stripclub contemplating on his recent actions .

    Brosnan should have played Bond as a sleazeball/gritty snob. He could have pulled it off well
  • I see a lot of people are blaming the scripts or Brosnan's last film in DAD as the root of the problems. For me it went past that. I enjoyed his first two films, well, I should say scripts anyway, as TLD had some casting issues for me such as Hatcher and the villains in general. The scripts went downhill starting with TWINE, yes I know some people like it but to blame the decline entirely on DAD isn't accurate in my opinion.

    Brosnan himself was also a problem. Even though I was satisfied with the first two films as good entries, there was always something right from the get-go that never felt right to me. Hanging over a toilet definitely wasn't a good way to start either. You can stick a guy that looks like a classic Bond in a suit, but it doesn't make him Bond. Lazenby was nothing more than an action hero, but at least you could understand he was very green. Brosnan was an experienced actor and had no excuses. He's just not very good in certain dramatic areas. But what always bothered me more than anything was that he didn't SOUND like Bond. His Irish-American accent doesn't sound like Bond, and the softness in his voice just didn't command respect either.
  • Brosnan was an experienced actor and had no excuses. He's just not very good in certain dramatic areas. But what always bothered me more than anything was that he didn't SOUND like Bond. His Irish-American accent doesn't sound like Bond, and the softness in his voice just didn't command respect either.

    I agree quite a bit with the above. I quite liked Pierce in GE as he, quite frankly, wasn't as bad as I feared. Given his performance as Remington Steele I was worried that he would be too lightweight, wimpy, and smarmy as Bond. While there was still a bit of that in GE for the most part I was pleasantly surprised - especially that manorexic Brosnan actually seemed credible when fighting with 006 in the satellite dish. But that came down to Martin Campbell, I think.

    For those who blame the scripts I just can't understand that point of view. At the time, Brosnan was given more scenes of deeper emotional depth than any other Bond before (including Dalton). He just didn't have the chops to carry them off. He always went for the most obvious line readings and didn't have the confidence to carry them off. I did like him as he was charming, but he always struck me as someone who was "playing" Bond instead of "being Bond". The closest he got was in DAD and I think that's because it was the only time that he played Bond as a bit of a bastard. But I can't believe that he couldn't have gone with that characterization from the beginning...and unfortunately it also meant he he increased the smugness and smarm with every film, too.

  • Posts: 1,492
    [ When really Brosnan is a great character actor. l

    Yer what???

    Pierce Brosnan plays every role as Remington Steele, Bond was Remington Steele, Adam Lang was Remington Steele, the assassin The Fourth Protoccol was Remington Steele.

    Pierce Brosnan is not a great character actor because he generally plays himself like Rog. Craig when he is no longer Bond will play Kings, emporers, generals...

    Pierce is a very limited actor and generally plays an extension of Pierce Brosnan.
  • edited November 2012 Posts: 11,189
    actonsteve wrote:
    [ When really Brosnan is a great character actor. l

    Yer what???

    Pierce Brosnan plays every role as Remington Steele, Bond was Remington Steele, Adam Lang was Remington Steele, the assassin The Fourth Protoccol was Remington Steele.

    Pierce Brosnan is not a great character actor because he generally plays himself like Rog. Craig when he is no longer Bond will play Kings, emporers, generals...

    Pierce is a very limited actor and generally plays an extension of Pierce Brosnan.

    For the record I prefer Brosnan in Bond than I do in RS. Just starting watching RS and I find him too "animated".

    Also when was he Remington Steele in The Fourth Protocol? One is a comic role, the other is deadly serious. He doesn't do that cheesey grin once in the latter.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I know the Brosnan fans blame the scripts, but a decent actor could have at least tried to make them better. All that energy channelled into being unbearably smug, could have been put into creating a new Bond, rather than a greatest hits.

    Maybe Brosnan is a good actor andd I have seen the wrong films of his, but I doubt it.

    Trust me, not even Sean Connery could have made the CGI gliding around the ice go away. Brosnan wasn't smug to my eyes. He loves Bond and loved the opportunity, yet I still think he has regrets and wishes of things that didn't come true.
  • edited November 2012 Posts: 11,189
    I wouldn't say Brosnan was "unbearable" at all. He was smug!

    And....?

    If you want "unbearable" smugness look at Halle in DAD.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited November 2012 Posts: 1,243
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I wouldn't say Brosnan was "unbearable" at all. He was smug!

    And....?

    If you want "unbearable" smugness look at Halle in DAD.

    Halle should have taken Severine's place:). I would have enjoyed the scene with the whisky immensely and enjoyed the one liner afterwards. Good riddance.

    My goodness but the actress Benerice was one strong Bond woman and it was sad to see her go. She gets a short part and Halle is torture throughout the film.

    Dalton's Bond would have left Halle to the laser beams and thought F it.

  • 2nd one.

    Loved him when he was Bond and I was a wee boy, but I'm older now and watch them back realising why the movies are criticised.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,730
    THERE'S NO POINT IN LEEVING IF YOU CAN'T FEEL ALIIVE? Isn't that what you saay Electra isn't that you mottooo? He knew all about my shooouulder, he knew where to huuuurt me.

    An acting powerhouse.
    Bollocks I say.
    When I started this thread I did not anticipate such a tsunami of seething hatred for the man. :O

    If in twenty years Justin Bieber should play Bond, you'll remember Pierce a bit more fondly, I'll wager. :))
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,340
    This is amusing...
    tumblr_mbmbozS98b1qkgmgko1_1280.jpg
    However I am a big Broz fan. :) GO GOLDENEYE!!!!! \m/
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,730
    ;))
  • It sucks being a Brosnan fan on here. You can barely say anything positive about him without 2 or more people bashing him again.
  • edited November 2012 Posts: 86
    actonsteve wrote:
    [ When really Brosnan is a great character actor. l

    Yer what???

    Pierce Brosnan plays every role as Remington Steele, Bond was Remington Steele, Adam Lang was Remington Steele, the assassin The Fourth Protoccol was Remington Steele.

    Pierce Brosnan is not a great character actor because he generally plays himself like Rog. Craig when he is no longer Bond will play Kings, emporers, generals...

    Pierce is a very limited actor and generally plays an extension of Pierce Brosnan.

    I didn't hate Pierce Brosnan as Bond like some, as I've said already I do believe the majority of animosity comes from DAD, but to counter a lot that's levelled at Pierce, I like many love Sean Connery as Bond & the same could be said of his acting with regards character.
    Certain actors are leading men, not character actors, they play the part & bring gravatus to the roll, but can't detach said roll from themselves, so as a consequence there's always an element of their own personality in every role they take.

    Look at Hunt for Red October, it's JB with grey beard disguise as the Captain of a Russian Sub!
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